Official 2009-2010 Hot Stove season thread

[example1]

carl crawford is going to be a free agent him in left.

 

fast can hit pretty well, good arm, and good defense. can definitely give us a better leadoff hitter.

 

I'm pretty sure Crawford has an option for 2010 and I haven't heard it won't be picked up.

[Dojji]

carl crawford is going to be a free agent him in left.

 

fast can hit pretty well, good arm, and good defense. can definitely give us a better leadoff hitter.

 

carl Crawford has a club option. The Rays would have to answer a lot of questions if they didn't pick it up.

[example1]

carl Crawford has a club option. The Rays would have to answer a lot of questions if they didn't pick it up.

 

Like, why they didn't pick it up and then trade him...

[Dojji]

Heh. Synchronized swatting.

[Dojji]

Like' date=' why they didn't pick it up and then trade him...[/quote']

 

Solid point. I could see the Mariners being a team that would be extremely interested in Crawford. Ichiro is a more typical #2 after all, especially with a guy with Crawford's speed leading off.

 

 

If you had that much speed and contact at the top of the order you could get by with a fairly modest power core., especially if the pitching is good.

[bsox0407]

Solid point. I could see the Mariners being a team that would be extremely interested in Crawford. Ichiro is a more typical #2 after all' date=' especially with a guy with Crawford's speed leading off.[/quote']

 

hope the rays dont try for felix like that.

[Dipre]

If we can't get Bay or Holliday' date=' Carlos Lee is going to start looking mighty tempting. So is Carlos Beltran, who might benefit healthwise from a move to the corners.[/quote']

 

Carlos Lee is a DH playing the field.

 

Beltran, on the other hand, is pure awesomeness.

[bsox0407]

Carlos Lee is a DH playing the field.

 

Beltran, on the other hand, is pure awesomeness.

 

i would much rather have beltran then lee. lee isn't a great fielder. would be a good fit if ortiz was gone.

[Cocos Disciples]

Yeah, pass on Carlos Lee.

[Dojji]

While we're on as related subject, I don't think any team in the AL East is going to be dealing quality veterans to Boston this offseason. This applies to both Crawford and Halladay.

 

The reason is simple. In order to have a shot at the playoffs the other 3 teams of the East need to break up the "duopoly" of us and NYY. Right now, they do that the most easily if we falter and fail to make the playoffs, allowing other teams in the East a crack at winning at least Wild Card glory.

 

Even if the Rays and Jays trade veterans away, they aren't going to do it in a way that strengthens us and reduces their best chance to be the last team standing. Their best chance involves getting a good return for those prospects without their veterans playing for the Duopoly. That makes us a poor trading partner for any of the other three AL East teams that has playoff aspirations. Which both the Rays and Jays seem to have.

 

Oh yeah, you could probably make a deal with the Orioles, except that they don't have anything.

[bsox0407]

Yeah' date=' pass on Carlos Lee.[/quote']

 

his homer totals are less than what Papi had last year and imagine how many papi could have had if he hit some before june.

[Dojji]

i would much rather have beltran then lee. lee isn't a great fielder. would be a good fit if ortiz was gone.

 

The only reason I thought of him is because he's one of the better power hitters who might be available. It's not like we can trade for Albert Pujols, we have to target guys other teams would actually countenance giving up.

 

BTW I assume everyone's feeling about going after Adam Dunn to play left field is going to play out predictably?

[Dipre]

The only reason I thought of him is because he's one of the better power hitters who might be available. It's not like we can trade for Albert Pujols, we have to target guys other teams would actually countenance giving up.

 

BTW I assume everyone's feeling about going after Adam Dunn to play left field is going to play out predictably?

 

Stop thinking defense in LF is not important.

[bsox0407]

The only reason I thought of him is because he's one of the better power hitters who might be available. It's not like we can trade for Albert Pujols, we have to target guys other teams would actually countenance giving up.

 

BTW I assume everyone's feeling about going after Adam Dunn to play left field is going to play out predictably?

 

true about dunn. K's a lot to. but bay is more of a power hitter than lee was. lee hasn't hit over 30 hrs since 2007 and thats in Houston with the short porch in left. i mean by the poles.

[Dojji]

Stop thinking defense in LF is not important.

 

http://www.steroidtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/mannyramirez-293x300.jpg

[bsox0407]

http://www.steroidtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/mannyramirez-293x300.jpg

 

exactly.

[Dipre]

http://www.steroidtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/mannyramirez-293x300.jpg

 

Oh?

 

Because Adam Dunn's offensive awesomeness compares favorably to the once-in-a-generation hitting prowess of Manny Ramirez?

 

Well i didn't know.

 

Furthermore, stop with the smug ********.

[Dojji]

Oh?

 

Because Adam Dunn's offensive awesomeness compares favorably to the once-in-a-generation hitting prowess of Manny Ramirez?

 

Well i didn't know.

 

Furthermore, stop with the smug ********.

 

So good to great offense can make up for bad defense after all?

 

That's nice to know.

[Dojji]

It's like Winston Churchill once said when dealing with a female critic.

 

First he asked her if she'd have sex with him for the British eqivalent of a million dollars. She said she would.

 

Then he asked her if she'd do it for five dollars, and she basically asked him what he took her for.

 

He replied "We've already discussed what you are. Now we're just discussing the price."

 

This is applicable because we're basically asking the "price" of good offense in left. In other words, how well a guy has to hit in order to be allowed screw us over defensively.

 

Where exactly do we draw that line? Do we use VORP, offensive and defensive? Do we rely on something more subjective? And which players out there are acceptably bad and which are just too terrible to have at any offensive "price" they're likely to be able to pay?

[Dipre]

So good to great offense can make up for bad defense after all?

 

That's nice to know.

 

"Good to great?"

 

Manny Ramirez has a 1.031 lifetime OPS.And i still bitched about his defense.

 

Can i please beg you to concoct arguments that make sense?

 

If we got out of a HOF-worthy LF who couldn't play defense, why would we go after a non-HOF worthy LF who can't play defense?

[Dipre]

It's like Winston Churchill once said when dealing with a female critic.

 

First he asked her if she'd have sex with him for the British eqivalent of a million dollars. She said she would.

 

Then he asked her if she'd do it for five dollars, and she basically asked him what he took her for.

 

He replied "We've already discussed what you are. Now we're just discussing the price."

 

This is applicable because we're basically asking the "price" of good offense in left. In other words, how well a guy has to hit in order to be allowed screw us over defensively.

 

Where exactly do we draw that line? Do we use VORP, offensive and defensive? Do we rely on something more subjective? And which players out there are acceptably bad and which are just too terrible to have at any offensive "price" they're likely to be able to pay?

 

 

 

The line is easy to discern.

 

Don't sign any more defensively-challenged players.

[Dojji]

"Good to great?"

 

Manny Ramirez has a 1.031 lifetime OPS.And i still bitched about his defense.

 

Can i please beg you to concoct arguments that make sense?

 

If we got out of a HOF-worthy LF who couldn't play defense, why would we go after a non-HOF worthy LF who can't play defense?

 

That argument only works if the non-defense was the lion's share of the reason we got rid of him. Since Manny basically shot his way out of rown I'm not sure we know that. If he'd been a good soldier and continued to hit well and showed effort in the field I suspect we'd be talking about the risks and benefits of bringing Jason Bay or Holliday in as opposed to picking up one or both of Manny's options.

[Dojji]

The line is easy to discern.

 

Don't sign any more defensively-challenged players.

 

None at all? So no player who is not at least an average defender should be on this team no matter how well he hits?

[Dipre]

That argument only works if the non-defense was the lion's share of the reason we got rid of him. Since Manny basically shot his way out of rown I'm not sure we know that. If he'd been a good soldier and continued to hit well and showed effort in the field I suspect we'd be talking about the risks and benefits of bringing Jason Bay or Holliday in as opposed to picking up one or both of Manny's options.

 

And Holliday would still be the leading option for anyone with a heartbeat (except you) because of his vastly superior defense, but hey, you've already stated you don't care about defense in LF at all because it's so low in the defensive spectrum (even though you edited the post), but that's only you.

[Dipre]

None at all? So no player who is not at least an average defender should be on this team no matter how well he hits?

 

As ORS would say:"Square key in circular lock".

 

Defensively challenged means vastly below average. Don't put words in my mouth and stop making stuff up please.

[Dojji]

Realistically, what's the difference between a below average defender (say, Jason Bay) and a "defensively challenged" one such as you label Adam Dunn and Carlos Lee?

 

Is there one?

[Dipre]

Realistically, what's the difference between a below average defender (say, Jason Bay) and a "defensively challenged" one such as you label Adam Dunn and Carlos Lee?

 

Is there one?

 

In Fenway, not much.

 

On the road, where limited range and bad reads will cause catcheable balls to drop, bad relays and weak overall defense, the difference is runs allowed, and in the worst cases, wins.

[example1]

While we're on as related subject' date=' I don't think any team in the AL East is going to be dealing quality veterans to Boston this offseason. This applies to both Crawford and Halladay. [/quote']

 

It applies to Crawford. It absolutely shouldn't to Halladay.

 

The reason is simple. In order to have a shot at the playoffs the other 3 teams of the East need to break up the "duopoly" of us and NYY. Right now, they do that the most easily if we falter and fail to make the playoffs, allowing other teams in the East a crack at winning at least Wild Card glory.

 

Why does everyone assume that every FO operates with the intention of getting to the playoffs? Toronto's internal goal may be to win 81 games and prepare the team for the longterm. I think Ricciardi got fired for not having dealt with the Halladay situation when he had the chance. If the Sox offered Buchholz as part of a package ONCE and Toronto didn't take it Ricciardi should have been fired.

 

Even if the Rays and Jays trade veterans away, they aren't going to do it in a way that strengthens us and reduces their best chance to be the last team standing.

 

If chances are that the Sox get one season of Halladay by giving up a lot of their prospects, Toronto would probably gain over the longterm. If, on the other hand, the Sox could resign Hallady to a 4 year deal, it would be a tremendous move for them.

 

Their best chance involves getting a good return for those prospects without their veterans playing for the Duopoly. That makes us a poor trading partner for any of the other three AL East teams that has playoff aspirations. Which both the Rays and Jays seem to have.

 

Rays do. Jays? Do you really think they're playoff bound? I just don't see it. The Rays, Sox and Yankees are all considerably more stacked.

[Dojji]

If chances are that the Sox get one season of Halladay by giving up a lot of their prospects, Toronto would probably gain over the longterm. If, on the other hand, the Sox could resign Hallady to a 4 year deal, it would be a tremendous move for them.

 

If we're only dealing for one year of Halladay, there's a ten foot pole I'd like us to not touch him with. We've got to get multiple years out of Halladay for it to be worth any semi-reasonable price in talent.

 

Rays do. Jays? Do you really think they're playoff bound? I just don't see it. The Rays, Sox and Yankees are all considerably more stacked.

 

I think within the next 2-3 years the Jays have a legitimate chance. If they can pick up a couple more power hitters and get their rotation healthy I think they'll surprise you. And if they do, certainly having Halladay actively blocking their only route to the playoffs won't do them any favors.

 

An ideal situation for the Jays is for a team from the National League to think big and go after him.

[example1]

If we're only dealing for one year of Halladay' date=' there's a ten foot pole I'd like us to not touch him with. We've got to get multiple years out of Halladay for it to be worth any semi-reasonable price in talent.[/quote']

 

Depending on the price I'm not sure this is true. The plan currently is for 2010 to be a transition year of sorts. Ortiz, Lowell, Beckett, and Martinez all have expiring contracts and a lot of money will be coming off the books (3 of their 4 most expensive contracts, $43.5m). If they add Halliday this year they would open that salary as well and improve the team's chances of winning the WS in 2010. It would be a rewarding way to make a final run with this core group.

 

I think within the next 2-3 years the Jays have a legitimate chance. If they can pick up a couple more power hitters and get their rotation healthy I think they'll surprise you. And if they do, certainly having Halladay actively blocking their only route to the playoffs won't do them any favors.

 

Either way, someone is going to be blocking their way. The Red Sox aren't just going to disappear. Perhaps the Jays don't bite on an in-division trade for Halladay and the Sox overpay and get Felix Hernandez. Think the Jay's will have a better chance when they lose Halladay to FA anyway, while the Sox have acquired Felix?

 

All that aside, the Jays don't have to "beat" the Sox/Yankees to get into the playoffs. They need to win their games against all teams and put up a playoff worthy record.