Official 2009-2010 Hot Stove season thread

[GWSoxFan]

With ATL shedding 11.5M in the Vasquez trade' date=' anyone think they are serious contenders for Bay or Holliday now? It would suck if the get Bay from a Red Sox stand point because of the Draft pick compensation. They already have ATL's 1st rounder. I hope the y make a huge push for Holliday and St. Louis ends up going after Bay.[/quote']

 

It would be worse for the Sox if Atlanta signed Holliday. If they did, their first rounder would go to St. Louis, and we'd get their 2nd round choice. What the sox really need is for another team to sign Holliday and the Cardinals to sign Bay. Then we'd get the 20th and 25th picks, plus the two sandwich picks. The only problem with that is that the only "other team" I can see signing Holliday would be the Yankees, so the Sox would get better draft picks, but the Yanks would get better on the field.

[BSN07]

It would be worse for the Sox if Atlanta signed Holliday. If they did' date=' their first rounder would go to St. Louis, and we'd get their 2nd round choice. What the sox really need is for another team to sign Holliday and the Cardinals to sign Bay. Then we'd get the 20th and 25th picks, plus the two sandwich picks. The only problem with that is that the only "other team" I can see signing Holliday would be the Yankees, so the Sox would get better draft picks, but the Yanks would get better on the field.[/quote']

 

Ah I didn't think of that. There boned either way. They need the NYM to get desperate and stupid(unless their pick is protected?).

 

ATL might have opened Pandora's box here lol

[Dipre]

Ah I didn't think of that. There boned either way. They need the NYM to get desperate and stupid(unless their pick is protected?).

 

ATL might have opened Pandora's box here lol

 

Best option:

 

Bay to Mets.

 

Holliday to Saint Louis.

[BSN07]

Best option:

 

Bay to Mets.

 

Holliday to Saint Louis.

 

Fo shizzle

[Palodios]

 

Tek and Lugo are simply not good. Lugo has always been a mediocre defender, and Tek is an aging catcher. Nothing to do with chemistry.

 

Nick Green is a career journeyman who had a career year both offensively and defensively. I?m surprised he?s even being mentioned here.

 

Brad Penny was Brad Penny. Nothing to do with chemistry.

 

John Smoltz had a mecanical glitch that they found when he got to Saint Louis. Don?t see how chemistry affects that.

 

Lowrie was injured. Ditto for Dice-K, who showed up out of shape and overworked from the WBC.

 

Bay quite simply dissapeared, but slumps happen and team chemistry has nothing to do with it.

 

The lighthearted atmosphere was not a factor in 2007. Between the Manny drama and the core of the idiotssgone, this team won a championship. Besides, in reality, i doubt any of us knows what really goes on behind closed doors in the ballclub.

 

Now you're just trying to prove me wrong by pulling stuff out of your ass. Ortiz did not start late, he supposedly claimed that he was working harder this off-season to put the 2008 season behind him.

 

Lugo's defense was far worse this season than previous seasons, which is really saying something. As soon as he left, his defense returned to normal levels.

 

Don't know where you heard about the Smoltz mechanical glitch came from. I'm calling BS on this one. Injured or not, Lowrie hit .147 when he did play.

 

Nick Green hit .321 in May, then .233 in June, .143 in July, .189 in August. Don't claim that's not a slump.

 

Tek's OPS pre-All Star break was .826. Post-All Star break was .489. Some of that does have to do with injuries, but still, that's a serious drop.

 

Penny-- Yes he does drop off at the end of the season, but not usually that bad. And at the same time, he was fine with SF.

 

As far as Dice-K, if he really gave a damn about the team, would he have shown up to opening day overweight? I have no problem with him supporting his national team and overworking himself there. It happened to Peavy, and it happened to Ziegler, and I have no problem with either of them. I have a problem with him putting himself over his teammates.

 

 

But you're missing the point. At no point was the team clicking on all cyclinders. You can get to the playoffs as a collection of pieces, but that's not going to get you any wins in the playoffs.

[GWSoxFan]

In a dream world, it would be best if the Sox signed Holliday and the Cardinals signed Bay. We'd get Holliday, plus the 20th and 25th picks in the draft and the 2 supplimentals for Wagner and Bay. Otherwise, Holliday staying and Bay to the Mets is the next best option. The Mets pick is protected, but having the 20th, 2 supplimentals and the 7th pick in the 2nd round is better than having Holliday play in Yankee Stadium.

[Dipre]

Now you're just trying to prove me wrong by pulling stuff out of your ass. Ortiz did not start late' date=' he supposedly claimed that he was working harder this off-season to put the 2008 season behind him.[/quote']

 

Ortiz trains in the DR, where i live. He starts his training with his DWL team every year, and it didn't happen last year. Who's pulling stuff out of their ass?

 

Lugo's defense was far worse this season than previous seasons, which is really saying something. As soon as he left, his defense returned to normal levels.

 

Julio Lugo defensive statistics 2009:

 

With Red Sox: -53.0 UZR, 3.3 RF/9.

 

With Cardinals: -35.0 UZR, 5.1 RF/9.

 

Julio Lugo career UZR: 1.5.

 

He's never been great, but he's been on a steady defensive decline the last few years.

 

The stats back up this statement, and so does the fact that the Cardinals actually played him more at 2B (168.1 Innings) than SS (158.0 Innings) in favor of Brendan Ryan, a 2B by nature.

 

Don't know where you heard about the Smoltz mechanical glitch came from. I'm calling BS on this one. Injured or not, Lowrie hit .147 when he did play.

 

Pertinent links:

 

John Smoltz may have been tipping pitches in Boston.

 

Smoltz says he was tipping pitches.

 

Link number two right out of the horse's mouth. So if John Smoltz was BS'ing about his own mechanics, you may have a point.

 

As for Lowrie, if you don't think a nagging wrist injury has a profound impact on a player's ability to hit, then you're simply wrong.

 

Nick Green hit .321 in May, then .233 in June, .143 in July, .189 in August. Don't claim that's not a slump.

 

Nick Green is a career backup infielder whose career line is .239/.307/.352 for a .660 OPS, his OPS last year was .669, i was wrong however, in noting it was a career high. Nick Green hit exactly like Nick Green last year.

 

Tek's OPS pre-All Star break was .826. Post-All Star break was .489. Some of that does have to do with injuries, but still, that's a serious drop.

 

Jason Varitek is an aging catcher who has been known over his career to be a notorious 1st-half hitter. That characteristic can only get worse with age.

 

Career 1st-half/2nd half OPS:

 

1st: .795

 

2nd: .756.

 

Last 3 years 1st half/2nf half OPS:

 

1st half: .759

 

2nd half: .669.

 

This is not a one-year occurence, but a career trend.

 

Penny-- Yes he does drop off at the end of the season, but not usually that bad. And at the same time, he was fine with SF.

 

I never said he drops off at the end of the season. I said he was expected to supply around or below league average production, and that's exactly what he did.

 

As far as Dice-K, if he really gave a damn about the team, would he have shown up to opening day overweight? I have no problem with him supporting his national team and overworking himself there. It happened to Peavy, and it happened to Ziegler, and I have no problem with either of them. I have a problem with him putting himself over his teammates.

 

First of all, this is a completely subjective opinion. You really don't know what's going on through his mind. He comes from a different, nation-first culture. He, as every ballplayer, is a creature of habit, and his training habits were disrupted by the WBC.

 

 

But you're missing the point. At no point was the team clicking on all cyclinders. You can get to the playoffs as a collection of pieces, but that's not going to get you any wins in the playoffs.

 

No, you're missing the point.

 

This is a team that lacked a certified thumper in the lineup and suffered through a slew of injuries, as well as offensive and defensive uncertanties in many key positions. Chemistry has nothing to do with any of the above factors. Health, luck and production do.

[BSN07]

Ortiz trains in the DR, where i live. He starts his training with his DWL team every year, and it didn't happen last year. Who's pulling stuff out of their ass?

 

 

 

Julio Lugo defensive statistics 2009:

 

With Red Sox: -53.0 UZR, 3.3 RF/9.

 

With Cardinals: -35.0 UZR, 5.1 RF/9.

 

Julio Lugo career UZR: 1.5.

 

He's never been great, but he's been on a steady defensive decline the last few years.

 

The stats back up this statement, and so does the fact that the Cardinals actually played him more at 2B (168.1 Innings) than SS (158.0 Innings) in favor of Brendan Ryan, a 2B by nature.

 

 

 

Pertinent links:

 

John Smoltz may have been tipping pitches in Boston.

 

Smoltz says he was tipping pitches.

 

Link number two right out of the horse's mouth. So if John Smoltz was BS'ing about his own mechanics, you may have a point.

 

As for Lowrie, if you don't think a nagging wrist injury has a profound impact on a player's ability to hit, then you're simply wrong.

 

 

 

Nick Green is a career backup infielder whose career line is .239/.307/.352 for a .660 OPS, his OPS last year was .669, i was wrong however, in noting it was a career high. Nick Green hit exactly like Nick Green last year.

 

 

 

Jason Varitek is an aging catcher who has been known over his career to be a notorious 1st-half hitter. That characteristic can only get worse with age.

 

Career 1st-half/2nd half OPS:

 

1st: .795

 

2nd: .756.

 

Last 3 years 1st half/2nf half OPS:

 

1st half: .759

 

2nd half: .669.

 

This is not a one-year occurence, but a career trend.

 

 

 

I never said he drops off at the end of the season. I said he was expected to supply around or below league average production, and that's exactly what he did.

 

 

 

First of all, this is a completely subjective opinion. You really don't know what's going on through his mind. He comes from a different, nation-first culture. He, as every ballplayer, is a creature of habit, and his training habits were disrupted by the WBC.

 

 

 

 

No, you're missing the point.

 

This is a team that lacked a certified thumper in the lineup and suffered through a slew of injuries, as well as offensive and defensive uncertanties in many key positions. Chemistry has nothing to do with any of the above factors. Health, luck and production do.

 

pwnage of the utmost extent.

[Palodios]

How exactly is that pwnage? He posted stats about Lugo that support that he was better in St. Louis, essentially not making any point, and basically agreeing with me. Lowrie has been blaming his hitting woes on a nagging wrist for a year and a half. Nick Green clearly was slumping.

 

In his career Varitek has show a different of .040 trend. In the last 3 years, Varitek's first versus second splits show a different of .090 ops. This year, he showed a difference of .340. You cannot call that showing signs of a trend.

 

You said nothing about Brad Penny's being around regular averages. You said "Brad Penny will be Brad Penny".

 

And you completely disregarded what I said about Dice-K. Being overworked is one thing, but being overweight is another. What does being overweight have to do with putting your nation-first?

 

None of the injuries this year were to key players, besides Wake and Dice. The bullpen was healthy all year, but faltered at crucial times. Youk, Pedroia, Bay, VMart, Drew, and Ellsbury all were healthy, but inconsistent.

[SoxSport]

The Yankees continue to be the favorite landing spot of salary dumps, as they have been since the advent of free agency in the late 70s. Remember when Bowie Kuhn outlawed those salary dumps of Charley Finley's A's to the Yankees and Red Sox? My, how times have changed. MLBTraderumors.com says the Yankees spent $226 mil in salaries last year plus $26 mil in luxury taxes. That's about $2.5 mil per win and $100 mil? more than the Red Sox. The last place a team wants to be is in a division with the Yankees.

 

The question is where would the Yankees be with a salary cap? Probably closer to the middle of the pack. Although things being what they are in MLB, the cap would probably be $200 mil. LOL.

[Dipre]

How exactly is that pwnage? He posted stats about Lugo that support that he was better in St. Louis' date=' essentially not making any point, and basically agreeing with me. Lowrie has been blaming his hitting woes on a nagging wrist for a year and a half. Nick Green clearly was slumping.[/quote']

 

The stats did not show he was better (Lugo). The stats show he was absolutely horrible in Boston, and absolutely horrible in Saint Louis.

 

Lowrie has been "blaming?" The FO acknowledges his inability to stay healthy, and cites it as the number one reason why he has shown inconsistency on the offensive side of the ball. He's not blaming, he has a legitimate injury. Or did the team put him on the DL just

because?

 

Nick Green hit like Nick Green. He followed his career statistical average to a tee.

 

In his career Varitek has show a different of .040 trend. In the last 3 years, Varitek's first versus second splits show a different of .090 ops. This year, he showed a difference of .340. You cannot call that showing signs of a trend.

 

Of course it is a trend.

 

Definition of trend: A general tendency or inclination.

 

The trend has been Varitek exhibiting worse numbers over the second half, and it has gotten progressively worse as he has aged.

 

 

You said nothing about Brad Penny's being around regular averages. You said "Brad Penny will be Brad Penny".

 

I admit to not being clear enough about the subject, and i apologize, since being new to the board, you couldn't have known my prior statements about the subject. But my definition of "Brad Penny being Brad Penny" means absolute mediocrity.

 

And you completely disregarded what I said about Dice-K. Being overworked is one thing, but being overweight is another. What does being overweight have to do with putting your nation-first?

 

I have to disregard what you said, since you were making a subjective opinion over a subject that neither you nor anyone on this site has clear knowledge about. What we do know is that his training schedule was thrown out of whack by the WBC, and that contributed to his lack of conditioning. This is fact.

 

None of the injuries this year were to key players, besides Wake and Dice. The bullpen was healthy all year, but faltered at crucial times. Youk, Pedroia, Bay, VMart, Drew, and Ellsbury all were healthy, but inconsistent.

 

If you don't consider 2/3 of the starting rotation to be key players for this team, you're entitled to, but it is incorrect. Not to mention both Lugo AND Lowrie being down for prolonged stretches, as well as Lowell's hip woes.

 

To the bolded part, Youkilis and Pedroia were a model of consistency, Drew posted one of the better OPS's (5th best to be exact) for an OF with enough AB's to qualify for the batting title. Martinez was a monster since being acquired from Cleveland (.912 OPS), Ellsbury performed much better than his 2008 season, including 20 more stolen bases, and a .41 rise in OPS.

 

All of the players you mentioned sans Bay's massive slump (and even he still had a better-than-career-average OPS) performed up to or much better than their career standards.

 

Your premise in incorrect. On all accounts.

[BSN07]

The stats did not show he was better (Lugo). The stats show he was absolutely horrible in Boston, and absolutely horrible in Saint Louis.

 

Lowrie has been "blaming?" The FO acknowledges his inability to stay healthy, and cites it as the number one reason why he has shown inconsistency on the offensive side of the ball. He's not blaming, he has a legitimate injury. Or did the team put him on the DL just because?

 

Nick Green hit like Nick Green. He followed his career statistical average to a tee.

 

 

 

Of course it is a trend.

 

Definition of trend: A general tendency or inclination.

 

The trend has been Varitek exhibiting worse numbers over the second half, and it has gotten progressively worse as he has aged.

 

 

 

 

I admit to not being clear enough about the subject, and i apologize, since being new to the board, you couldn't have known my prior statements about the subject. But my definition of "Brad Penny being Brad Penny" means absolute mediocrity.

 

 

 

I have to disregard what you said, since you were making a subjective opinion over a subject that neither you nor anyone on this site has clear knowledge about. What we do know is that his training schedule was thrown out of whack by the WBC, and that contributed to his lack of conditioning. This is fact.

 

 

 

If you don't consider 2/3 of the starting rotation to be key players for this team, you're entitled to, but it is incorrect. Not to mention both Lugo AND Lowrie being down for prolonged stretches, as well as Lowell's hip woes.

 

To the bolded part, Youkilis and Pedroia were a model of consistency, Drew posted one of the better OPS's (5th best to be exact) for an OF with enough AB's to qualify for the batting title. Martinez was a monster since being acquired from Cleveland (.912 OPS), Ellsbury performed much better than his 2008 season, including 20 more stolen bases, and a .41 rise in OPS.

 

All of the players you mentioned sans Bay's massive slump (and even he still had a better-than-career-average OPS) performed up to or much better than their career standards.

 

Your premise in incorrect. On all accounts.

 

Hence the "pwnage" comment

 

Not sure what else to call it when your argument is torn down brick by brick :dunno:

[Dipre]

The Yankees continue to be the favorite landing spot of salary dumps, as they have been since the advent of free agency in the late 70s. Remember when Bowie Kuhn outlawed those salary dumps of Charley Finley's A's to the Yankees and Red Sox? My, how times have changed. MLBTraderumors.com says the Yankees spent $226 mil in salaries last year plus $26 mil in luxury taxes. That's about $2.5 mil per win and $100 mil? more than the Red Sox. The last place a team wants to be is in a division with the Yankees.

 

The question is where would the Yankees be with a salary cap? Probably closer to the middle of the pack. Although things being what they are in MLB, the cap would probably be $200 mil. LOL.

 

If you go to the Forbes website, you can see "total player expenses" which also incorporate international signings, bonuses, and everything not "payroll":

 

New York Yankees player expenses: $236 million (does not account for 26 million for luxury tax).

 

Boston Red Sox player expenses: $165 million.

 

Difference without luxury tax: $71 million.

 

Difference with luxury tax: $96 million.

[jacksonianmarch]

It might be higher this yr depending on what they do for LF. Regardless, they won a title last yr, it was worth it. I bet the extra playoff, merchandising and network income made it all worthwhile. And if they win it again, then I expect there to be more money coming their way with the dynasty talk creeping back into play

[yankees228]

The Yankees continue to be the favorite landing spot of salary dumps, as they have been since the advent of free agency in the late 70s. Remember when Bowie Kuhn outlawed those salary dumps of Charley Finley's A's to the Yankees and Red Sox? My, how times have changed. MLBTraderumors.com says the Yankees spent $226 mil in salaries last year plus $26 mil in luxury taxes. That's about $2.5 mil per win and $100 mil? more than the Red Sox. The last place a team wants to be is in a division with the Yankees.

 

The question is where would the Yankees be with a salary cap? Probably closer to the middle of the pack. Although things being what they are in MLB, the cap would probably be $200 mil. LOL.

 

This really is amazing. Charlie Finley was trying to sell off his players. Literally, sell them. Kuhn enacted the "best interest of baseball clause", which, to the best of my knowledge, still exists today.

 

In all the deals that you are talking about, the Yankees gave up some type of talent. I think this is a great trade for the Yankees, but I also think that Atlanta got a decent return (as do people like Dave Cameron and Keith Law). But yeah, great comparison.

 

EDIT: Not to mention, while this might have been a salary dump, considering his WAR ratings the last few years, and his actual salary, he's very much worth it and there are plenty of teams that could have afforded him.

[Dipre]

This really is amazing. Charlie Finley was trying to sell off his players. Literally, sell them. Kuhn enacted the "best interest of baseball clause", which, to the best of my knowledge, still exists today.

 

In all the deals that you are talking about, the Yankees gave up some type of talent. I think this is a great trade for the Yankees, but I also think that Atlanta got a decent return (as do people like Dave Cameron and Keith Law). But yeah, great comparison.

 

Not to mention the fact that Vasquez is not, by any means, a salary dump.

 

They may have gained "salary relief" on the deal, but they also got their starting CF for next year, a bullpen arm that's likely to excel in the NL, and a pretty darn good prospect.

[TheMino007]

With Lowell back on the team (although he technically never left), it looks like we're down to the 25th spot on the roster. That seems to come down to a RHH 5th OF or a bullpen arm. If the rotation's healthy, I agree that the light opening schedule makes 5th OF a clear choice, at least to start the year. Plus there's the available resources; Dustin Richardson and Michael Bowden can be shuttled up to Boston as necessary, whereas IMO Reddick could use a season in AAA before taking on a role with the big club, and moving him up to sit hurts his development far more than either a SP or RP. Getting another OF with options would be ideal, but finding a decent one probably means giving up at least a little talent. In terms of FA's, does Nady accept that role? Would/can Baldelli come back in a reduced role Jonny Gomes mashes lefties but can't play the field. Would you prefer a guy who can take CF, or with Cameron and Ells do you target the best hitter who'll take the spot? Are there any FA's Epstein should be targeting, or should the FO wait for a cheap team to unload a "pricey" arb-eligible player with options?

[riverside sluggers]

Mino, Id say the last spot would go to a utility infielder. That is not Lowrie as Sox have numerous times, stated that they want him to spend bulk of year in Triple A

[SoxSport]

The Yankees have been praised in the media (aren't the Yankees really the media?)for pulling off two great "trades" so far this year--for Granderson and Vasquez--for lesser players. How did they do it? Well, Granderson and Vasquez were SALARY DUMPS. The Tigers and the Braves wanted to unload salary, and which team is in the best position to take on salary? The Yankees, of course.

 

Contrast that to the Red Sox--who right now want to deal for young superstars (e.g., AdGon) on other teams who have low salaries.To save money. But that forces them to give up equal young talent, and really doesn't make the team stronger in the long run.

 

What's happening here is the Yankees are leveraging their TV cable money advantage to the maximum, taking advantage of other teams' need to unload salary. That's good business for them--what they should be doing. They are back to the formula which won them Championships in the Reggie Jackson era. Is it bad for Baseball? Selig probably doesn't see it that way--the NY market is crucial for his TV revenues. And the Players Association just loves the way the Yankees push salaries up higher and higher.

 

If the Yankees sign Holliday--which I think is likely--for 5/90 or thereabouts--playing out the season will be a formality. Fantasy Baseball is likely to be more competitive than the real thing.

[SoxSport]

Not to mention the fact that Vasquez is not, by any means, a salary dump.

 

 

Indeed a salary dump. Either him or Lowe.

[yankees228]

The Yankees have been praised in the media (aren't the Yankees really the media?)for pulling off two great "trades" so far this year--for Granderson and Vasquez--for lesser players. How did they do it? Well, Granderson and Vasquez were SALARY DUMPS. The Tigers and the Braves wanted to unload salary, and which team is in the best position to take on salary? The Yankees, of course.

 

Contrast that to the Red Sox--who right now want to deal for young superstars (e.g., AdGon) on other teams who have low salaries.To save money. But that forces them to give up equal young talent, and really doesn't make the team stronger in the long run.

 

What's happening here is the Yankees are leveraging their TV cable money advantage to the maximum, taking advantage of other teams' need to unload salary. That's good business for them--what they should be doing. They are back to the formula which won them Championships in the Reggie Jackson era. Is it bad for Baseball? Selig probably doesn't see it that way--the NY market is crucial for his TV revenues. And the Players Association just loves the way the Yankees push salaries up higher and higher.

 

If the Yankees sign Holliday--which I think is likely--for 5/90 or thereabouts--playing out the season will be a formality. Fantasy Baseball is likely to be more competitive than the real thing.

 

But they salary dumps that many teams can afford. The Vazquez salary and the Granderson salary are completely reasonable amounts of money, considering both player's level of production. The Yankees made these two trades, mainly because they have some talented young players, and Cashman is a good GM. I understand why the Braves and the Tigers got rid of these players, but that doesn't explain why the Yankees were the team that ended up with them.

 

As much as I'm sure you would love to, you cannot attribute everything to the Yankees' financial might, and that seems to be what you're trying to do.

 

As for the season being a formality, there's a reason why there have been eight different champions in the past ten years (during the time span when the Yankees have been outspending everyone).

[Dipre]

Indeed a salary dump. Either him or Lowe.

 

A salary dump, by definition, is an instance where a team gives a player away to another team in exchange for salary relief and maybe a couple b-level prospects.

 

The Braves got significant talent in the form of a player they have long coveted, a bullpen arm poised to excel in the NL, and high-octane, high-upside minor league arm.

 

Not a salary dump.

[Plumpamania]

The Vazquez deal wasn't as much as a salary dump and after his 2004 2nd Half numbers, I welcome him back to the AL East, especially as a fly ball pitcher to the New Yankee Stadium.

 

The Granderson deal was a steal from a team in the worst economic market in the United States...

[yankees228]

The Vazquez deal wasn't as much as a salary dump and after his 2004 2nd Half numbers, I welcome him back to the AL East, especially as a fly ball pitcher to the New Yankee Stadium.

 

The Granderson deal was a steal from a team in the worst economic market in the United States...

 

I think Detroit, overall, got good value in the trade. However, even if want to call it a steal, it's a steal that many teams had the financial ability to make.

[Plumpamania]

Any team with finanical flexability would do that, but think about it, the Tigers also gave up Edwin Jackson in the trade and only had a 3.61 ERA last year and a WHIP of 1.26. A career year, and they gave up him and the most reconizable player in the organization outside of Justin Verlander.

 

Sure the Tigers got: Austin Jackson, Phil Coke, Max Scherzer, and Daniel Schlereth. But how many of them are actually quality arms. Schlereth is a medicore LHH specialist, as is Phil Coke who will now apparently be stretched out as a LHSP. Scherzer shows great promise and until Jackson's power outage in AAA, he seemed like a good prospect as well. Granderson was only 28 years old, entering his prime and Jackson was 26. They did get back two promising players, But no sure things...

 

I wouldn't say the deals make sense player wise since there is no real "top prospect" being sent their way outside of Scherzer for two very quality players who aren't all that expensive.

[Dipre]

Any team with finanical flexability would do that, but think about it, the Tigers also gave up Edwin Jackson in the trade and only had a 3.61 ERA last year and a WHIP of 1.26. A career year, and they gave up him and the most reconizable player in the organization outside of Justin Verlander.

 

Sure the Tigers got: Austin Jackson, Phil Coke, Max Scherzer, and Daniel Schlereth. But how many of them are actually quality arms. Schlereth is a medicore LHH specialist, as is Phil Coke who will now apparently be stretched out as a LHSP. Scherzer shows great promise and until Jackson's power outage in AAA, he seemed like a good prospect as well. Granderson was only 28 years old, entering his prime and Jackson was 26. They did get back two promising players, But no sure things...

 

I wouldn't say the deals make sense player wise since there is no real "top prospect" being sent their way outside of Scherzer for two very quality players who aren't all that expensive.

 

The Tigers sold high on Jackson.

 

His peripherals are not pretty and suggest a regression next year, and not a small regression by any means.

 

I believe your assessment on Schlereth is not quite right. He's a power arm with a fantastic fastball and a swing-and-miss breaking ball, the reason why he's a gamble is because he's not fully recovered from TJ surgery, but the stuff is there to be not a LH specialist, but a valuable bullpen arm.

 

Granderson, however, doesn't seem like such a good idea, they sold low on him, and they probably shouldn't have.

[yankees228]

Any team with finanical flexability would do that, but think about it, the Tigers also gave up Edwin Jackson in the trade and only had a 3.61 ERA last year and a WHIP of 1.26. A career year, and they gave up him and the most reconizable player in the organization outside of Justin Verlander.

 

Sure the Tigers got: Austin Jackson, Phil Coke, Max Scherzer, and Daniel Schlereth. But how many of them are actually quality arms. Schlereth is a medicore LHH specialist, as is Phil Coke who will now apparently be stretched out as a LHSP. Scherzer shows great promise and until Jackson's power outage in AAA, he seemed like a good prospect as well. Granderson was only 28 years old, entering his prime and Jackson was 26. They did get back two promising players, But no sure things...

 

I wouldn't say the deals make sense player wise since there is no real "top prospect" being sent their way outside of Scherzer for two very quality players who aren't all that expensive.

 

Even if you think it's a lopsided the deal, the point that was being debated prior to your comment was how influential the Yankees' financial flexibility was in their ability to make the deal. SS was saying that the Yankees didn't deserve credit for the deal, simply because it's a salary dump. Obviously, that's a ridiculous claim, because it's a trade, as you acknowledged, that plenty of teams had the financial capability to make. Cashman deserves credit for being the one that was able to get the job done.

[Emmz]

Any team with finanical flexability would do that, but think about it, the Tigers also gave up Edwin Jackson in the trade and only had a 3.61 ERA last year and a WHIP of 1.26. A career year, and they gave up him and the most reconizable player in the organization outside of Justin Verlander.

 

Sure the Tigers got: Austin Jackson, Phil Coke, Max Scherzer, and Daniel Schlereth. But how many of them are actually quality arms. Schlereth is a medicore LHH specialist, as is Phil Coke who will now apparently be stretched out as a LHSP. Scherzer shows great promise and until Jackson's power outage in AAA, he seemed like a good prospect as well. Granderson was only 28 years old, entering his prime and Jackson was 26. They did get back two promising players, But no sure things...

 

I wouldn't say the deals make sense player wise since there is no real "top prospect" being sent their way outside of Scherzer for two very quality players who aren't all that expensive.

 

FIP. Jackson's is about at league average, suggesting that he's probably an average pitcher. Not to mention, he's going from a pitcher's park to a hitter's par

[Keeper]

If Coke had given up less HRs, he would have had a very good year. Yankee Stadium hurt him a lot. Comerica Park will help him a lot. My only gripe against him is he spits every two seconds. Schlereth has good stuff. Austin Jackson has athleticism and could still develop. Scherzer has front of the rotation stuff and will be much better than Edwin Jackson in the long run, IMO. Verlander and Scherzer could wind up being an awesome 1-2 punch.

[diony]

The sleeper on that trade is Ian Patrick Kennedy.