Why so cynical?

[jacksonianmarch]

Wow. I missed a great argument last night.

 

Kilo is right, y'all. The sox had one big goal, surrounded by flashing lights and pointing signs. Tex was priority #1. He gave them the opportunity to rid themselves of an old, aging and injured 3b and have their corner IFers be probably the best combination in baseball as well as have one of the most consistent power and OBP threats in the game through his prime. By allowing him to go to NY, the sox should consider this offseason failed. But instead of just saying, well, we'll get em next time, Henry bitches about the yankees financial advantage. Are you serious? I am sorry John, that the yankees money printing machine is a little bit larger than yours.

 

That being said, right now, 12/30/2009, the sox are a 3rd place team. It doesnt matter what division they play in. They did not improve. Penny is a lateral move. Kottaras and Bard may or may not be an improvement over Tek. Lowell and Papi both have injuries that may be career altering and expecting a bounceback from them may not be rational, we'll see. And instead of shoring up the offense with an upgrade or the rotation with a guy who they can count on, all you get is a middle reliever for your GG CFer and a pitcher who currently has a shoulder injury who isnt that great to begin with and has been steadily getting worse, when healthy in the worst division in baseball. Theo said it before. If you arent getting more dynamic, then you are falling behind. I go one step further. If you arent improving every yr, then you are falling behind. We did not improve from 07 to 08 and this is why we stayed home. The sox did improve as their young guys stepped up into bigger roles. Well, there's nobody left to step up. And you will learn.

 

Next offseason, both the yankees and the sox will have similar openings and needs. If JH is bitching about financial advantage now, how will he feel when he loses out on Holliday?

[jacksonianmarch]

and example, were you insinuating that the yankees did not spend their money on quality players? You were trying to refute Kilo by saying you need to spend the money on quality rather than overpaying for past performance. Um, the yankees got a 27 yr old, 2 28 yr olds and a 31 yr old.

 

Swisher is a proven 20-30HR hitter who's BABIP was way down and should be a .850OPS range player in 08.

CC Sabathia is a horse and an ace in his prime. More durable and more consistent than your #1

AJ Burnett has the best stuff in baseball and proved he could be an ace in the ALE last yr when he is healthy

Mark Teixeira is a sure bet to have a .930+OPS, 30+HR, 100+RBI and to tandem with ARod as the best 3-4 punch in baseball.

 

That is money well spent, IMO. Especially if we do as expected and take the ALE in our first yr in the new park

[rician blast]

See' date=' this is exactly what I'm talking about. [/quote']

 

Your misrepresenting PC's REALISTIC view as being pessimistic. Kind of insincere if you ask me.

 

I'm of the mind that this team is still potentially very good, but there are more question marks than we may want to admit. Which Beckett shows up this year? Can Lester repeat his 2008 performance? Same for Matsuzaka.

 

Offensively, how many games will Drew play in this year? Is Papi's wrist really ok? How will Lowell rebound, both physically and mentally?

 

Lots of questions to be answered, and personally I think this is exactly why the Sox aren't making acquisitions that stretch beyond the limits they've set. If they look healthy and contend mid-year, they make a move or two. If not, I see them retooling for a run, which may not materialize until 2011.

[ORS]

Your misrepresenting PC's REALISTIC view as being pessimistic. Kind of insincere if you ask me.

 

I'm of the mind that this team is still potentially very good, but there are more question marks than we may want to admit. Which Beckett shows up this year? Can Lester repeat his 2008 performance? Same for Matsuzaka.

 

Offensively, how many games will Drew play in this year? Is Papi's wrist really ok? How will Lowell rebound, both physically and mentally?

 

Lots of questions to be answered, and personally I think this is exactly why the Sox aren't making acquisitions that stretch beyond the limits they've set. If they look healthy and contend mid-year, they make a move or two. If not, I see them retooling for a run, which may not materialize until 2011.

This is about where I am too. Good answers to those questions and this is a team that will see internal improvement on team that should have won 102 games based on their context independent performance. But, if there are bad answers to a good portion of those questions, they'll struggle to compete.

 

It appears as if the "3rd place" crowd, which unsurprisingly contains all our Yankee fans here, has moved forward with the assumption that every bad thing that could happen with those question marks, will happen. Similarly, the "we're fine, nothing to worry about" crowd seems to have moved forward with the assumption we get improvement everywhere.

 

What makes me optimistic is their D3 performance. It's a safe assumption that they'll pick up a little at one position at the expense of another just through random variance, and they'll end up in the aggregate about where they were last year. Unchanged from last year, they pitched and hit well enough to go 102-60. Their underperformance is due to poor situational hitting, but every study done to identify clutch players has failed because no players show a historical record of being able to perform better in clutch situations over extended periods of time. In other words, assuming no luck, neither good nor bad, and they are 7 wins better than last year.

 

Kilo asked to know what people really think about this season going into it, so here goes. I think the division, right now, is....

 

1a - Yankees

1b - Sox

3 - Tampa

whatever

 

It isn't just their FA signings, although they will certainly help. It's the improvement from Molina to Posada. It's the fact that they likely get a full year of CMW. It's that I expect Cano to be significantly better than he was last year. It's that I'm assuming the Sox get 50/50 good answers to their question marks.

 

Now, I will caveat. If Beckett is healthy, Lowell's hip turns out to not be a problem, and Ortiz's wrist is fine. Put the Sox at 1a.

 

Tampa is good and young and all that jazz, but until I see the big components of that bullpen do it a second time, then I think that unit holds them back. Those schmucks were never that good before. They all blew up at the same time. We all know how volatile BP performance is. We'll see if they can do it again.

[Gom]

ORS, I'm not in the "Red Sox will finish 3rd" crowd. I really don't know, nor would I be surprised, if the Red Sox finish anywhere from 1st to 3rd. Ditto the Yankees and Tampa.

[TheKilo]

FYI I have no beef with anyone on this board as long as they can liven the discussion, something Dojji seems to miss.

[Paradisecity]

Your misrepresenting PC's REALISTIC view as being pessimistic. Kind of insincere if you ask me.

 

I'm of the mind that this team is still potentially very good, but there are more question marks than we may want to admit. Which Beckett shows up this year? Can Lester repeat his 2008 performance? Same for Matsuzaka.

 

Offensively, how many games will Drew play in this year? Is Papi's wrist really ok? How will Lowell rebound, both physically and mentally?

 

Lots of questions to be answered, and personally I think this is exactly why the Sox aren't making acquisitions that stretch beyond the limits they've set. If they look healthy and contend mid-year, they make a move or two. If not, I see them retooling for a run, which may not materialize until 2011.

 

Rician Blast gets it. Pretty much everyone seems to get it.

[BSN07]

It's just like any other season. Who will regress? Who will progress? Who stays healthy? Who doesn't?

 

 

The only difference this year is some see the Yanks moves and are over reacting. Yes the Yanks on paper seem to be better of then last season. But they have plenty of question marks too. They are just being covered up right now by the shine coming off the new toys.

[Cocos Disciples]

right now' date=' 12/30/2009[/quote']

 

Now we know why Jacko loves to make these predictions.

 

HE'S IN THE f***ING FUTURE!

[BSN07]

Now we know why Jacko loves to make these predictions.

 

HE'S IN THE f***ING FUTURE!

 

DOH:lol:

[example1]

and example' date=' were you insinuating that the yankees did not spend their money on quality players? You were trying to refute Kilo by saying you need to spend the money on quality rather than overpaying for past performance. Um, the yankees got a 27 yr old, 2 28 yr olds and a 31 yr old. [/quote']

 

Uhhh, no. I don't think I've said anywhere that CC or Teix are bad players. I think the money spent on Burnett was a bit excessive, but he fills a need.

 

Swisher is a proven 20-30HR hitter who's BABIP was way down and should be a .850OPS range player in 08.

CC Sabathia is a horse and an ace in his prime. More durable and more consistent than your #1

AJ Burnett has the best stuff in baseball and proved he could be an ace in the ALE last yr when he is healthy

Mark Teixeira is a sure bet to have a .930+OPS, 30+HR, 100+RBI and to tandem with ARod as the best 3-4 punch in baseball.

 

That is money well spent, IMO. Especially if we do as expected and take the ALE in our first yr in the new park

 

Wow. Make up an argument so you can hear yourself repeat how great you feel your team is. Nice one jacko...

 

I think the only negative thing I've said about the Yankees (aside form their absurd spending and my belief that they couldn't win with a salary cap) is that I'm not sure how their team will come together. I don't think that is anything far out. My guess is that would be the only caveat you would have about their potential success too, and injuries I suppose.

 

EDIT: I assume you read the "spending money does not mean getting quality" part, and didn't read much further. If that's all you read I can see why you would think I'm making a veiled attack on the Yankees. I'm not. I'm merely saying that if this team (the Sox) had overspent on FAs the last few years and their payroll was so high that nobody could realistically expect them to spend more, that wouldnt make them in any better of a position than they are currently in. Two days ago Kilo made the arguement (which was right) that the Yankee fans who brag about "coming in with a lower payroll" are basing that on a horribly run franchise the past few years, one which overspent--not just by a little, but by a ton--on guys who sucked. it assumes that a 200m payroll is what is a baseline, when, in fact, the baseline could be much lower, given that so many other teams do just as well with a much lower payroll.

 

The Yankees spent their money wisely for this year, although we will see over the life of the contracts how smart it was overall.

[Dipre]

and example, were you insinuating that the yankees did not spend their money on quality players? You were trying to refute Kilo by saying you need to spend the money on quality rather than overpaying for past performance. Um, the yankees got a 27 yr old, 2 28 yr olds and a 31 yr old.

 

Swisher is a proven 20-30HR hitter who's BABIP was way down and should be a .850OPS range player in 08.

CC Sabathia is a horse and an ace in his prime. More durable and more consistent than your #1

AJ Burnett has the best stuff in baseball and proved he could be an ace in the ALE last yr when he is healthy

Mark Teixeira is a sure bet to have a .930+OPS, 30+HR, 100+RBI and to tandem with ARod as the best 3-4 punch in baseball.

 

That is money well spent, IMO. Especially if we do as expected and take the ALE in our first yr in the new park

 

Where the f*** do you get that AJ Burnett has the best stuff in all of baseball?

 

Seriously, sir, seriously............

[naptownsoxfan]

Where the f*** do you get that AJ Burnett has the best stuff in all of baseball?

 

Seriously, sir, seriously............

 

No s***...Burnett please explain?

[BSN07]

Where the f*** do you get that AJ Burnett has the best stuff in all of baseball?

 

Seriously, sir, seriously............

 

When Burnett is on, he does have some of the best stuff in baseball. The ? that come with him is not about his stuff, more his durability, competitve drive.

[Dipre]

When Burnett is on' date=' he does have some of the best stuff in baseball. The ? that come with him is not about his stuff, more his durability, competitve drive.[/quote']

 

But stil, BEST stuff in baseball?

 

Lincecum

 

Webb

 

Volquez

 

King Felix

 

Santana

 

CC f***ing Sabathia, who is also on the Yanks?

[diony]

Burnett is a two-pitch guy, fastball and curveball. Both are plus pitches, but that doesn't means he has the best stuff in the majors, what a joke.

[naptownsoxfan]

Top ten, maybe but the best in baseball Burnett is not.

[example1]

But stil, BEST stuff in baseball?

 

Lincecum

 

Webb

 

Volquez

 

King Felix

 

Santana

 

CC f***ing Sabathia, who is also on the Yanks?

 

Felix gets my vote. He's sick.

[MANNYHOF24]

Wow. I missed a great argument last night.

 

Kilo is right, y'all. The sox had one big goal, surrounded by flashing lights and pointing signs. Tex was priority #1. He gave them the opportunity to rid themselves of an old, aging and injured 3b and have their corner IFers be probably the best combination in baseball as well as have one of the most consistent power and OBP threats in the game through his prime. By allowing him to go to NY, the sox should consider this offseason failed. But instead of just saying, well, we'll get em next time, Henry bitches about the yankees financial advantage. Are you serious? I am sorry John, that the yankees money printing machine is a little bit larger than yours.

 

That being said, right now, 12/30/2009, the sox are a 3rd place team. It doesnt matter what division they play in. They did not improve. Penny is a lateral move. Kottaras and Bard may or may not be an improvement over Tek. Lowell and Papi both have injuries that may be career altering and expecting a bounceback from them may not be rational, we'll see. And instead of shoring up the offense with an upgrade or the rotation with a guy who they can count on, all you get is a middle reliever for your GG CFer and a pitcher who currently has a shoulder injury who isnt that great to begin with and has been steadily getting worse, when healthy in the worst division in baseball. Theo said it before. If you arent getting more dynamic, then you are falling behind. I go one step further. If you arent improving every yr, then you are falling behind. We did not improve from 07 to 08 and this is why we stayed home. The sox did improve as their young guys stepped up into bigger roles. Well, there's nobody left to step up. And you will learn.

 

Next offseason, both the yankees and the sox will have similar openings and needs. If JH is bitching about financial advantage now, how will he feel when he loses out on Holliday?

 

Woah, I think its tough to say if the Red Sox are a 3rd place team. If Lowell can get back to his 07 form and Papi could be Papi, then there is no reason to think that the Red Sox are just as good if not better than the Yankees. I really dont think statements can really be thrown around like this right now, because it completely 100% depends on the health of those two players. If they are right, then its going to be very even on paper.

[MANNYHOF24]

Alright, heres my two cents on this whole debate. I pretty much have to agree with the crowd saying wait and see. If Mike Lowell and Ortiz are healthy, the Red Sox are going to have a very deep and good lineup. I think that getting Mark Texiera would have instantly made our lineup historically good, and I share the frusteration at the FO for losing by 10 million dollars, it sucks. Anyone who doesnt think that sucks is oblivious as hell. Seriously you could have a guy thats 28 anchoring your lineup for the next 8 years, and you wouldnt do that? Lars Anderson might end up being a nice player, but who the hell knows. That being said I am not going to give up on the season, we could still be very good and win the WS. If our lineup happens to click on all cylinders its going to be better than we have seen it for the last three years. Just think about how awesome it would be if Lowell, Ortiz, Drew, Pedroia, Youk and Bay were all performing up to their best abilities? That would be one heck of an offensive show. Thats why I am not giving up, because there is a pretty good chance that could happen. We have talent, and we can do well next year. I am just slightly disapointed that we didnt make our lineup guarenteed good for the next decade.

[TheKilo]

No one is giving up on the team, FTR, all I've said and will continue to say is they are the rd best team in the division UNLESS their health returns OR Theo makes a big move before ST.

[Dipre]

No one is giving up on the team' date=' FTR, all I've said and will continue to say is they are the rd best team in the division UNLESS their health returns OR Theo makes a big move before ST.[/quote']

 

And of course, either or both scenarios are plausible.

[TheKilo]

...but they haven't happened yet

[MANNYHOF24]

No one is giving up on the team' date=' FTR, all I've said and will continue to say is they are the rd best team in the division UNLESS their health returns OR Theo makes a big move before ST.[/quote']

 

Yeah, that was pretty much my point.

[Cocos Disciples]

Circles, we are running around in.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Where the f*** do you get that AJ Burnett has the best stuff in all of baseball?

 

The magic pinstriped uniform he will be wearing in 2009... that's where.

[Dipre]

The magic pinstriped uniform he will be wearing in 2009... that's where.

 

Didn't work for Pavano or Jaret Wright though, third time's the charm i guess......

[JimEdHOF2009]

Here is my list of guys with better "stuff" than Burnett. I do include control... as control is a very important component of stuff. More times than not, if you cannot get great "stuff" over the plate consistently, hitters will pick up the rotation of the ball and just let it go.

 

Here is my list. (INPO....not sure if there is an official internet-speak word for "In no particular order", but if there isn't, there should be;)

 

Peavy

Rich Harden

John Smoltz

Sabbathia

Josh Beckett

Felix Hernandez

Zach Grienke

Roy Halladay

Johan Santana

Chris Carpenter

Tim Lincecum

Brandon Webb

Erik Bedard (when healthy)

Cole Hamels

Carlos Zambrano

Roy Oswalt

Edinson Volquez

Possibly Scott Kazmir

Definitely Matt Garza

Dan Haren

Jon Lester

 

I also think some would argue Dice-K though Burnett has displayed better control.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Didn't work for Pavano or Jaret Wright though' date=' third time's the charm i guess......[/quote']

But how much was Yankee Nation sucking their cocks before they actually pitched a game for them? Yup.

[BSN07]

Here is my list of guys with better "stuff" than Burnett. I do include control... as control is a very important component of stuff. More times than not, if you cannot get great "stuff" over the plate consistently, hitters will pick up the rotation of the ball and just let it go.

 

Here is my list. (INPO....not sure if there is an official internet-speak word for "In no particular order", but if there isn't, there should be;)

 

Peavy

Rich Harden

John Smoltz

Sabbathia

Josh Beckett

Felix Hernandez

Zach Grienke

Roy Halladay

Johan Santana

Chris Carpenter

Tim Lincecum

Brandon Webb

Erik Bedard (when healthy)

Cole Hamels

Carlos Zambrano

Roy Oswalt

Edinson Volquez

Possibly Scott Kazmir

Definitely Matt Garza

Dan Haren

Jon Lester

 

I also think some would argue Dice-K though Burnett has displayed better control.

 

LOL @ Grienke being higher the Cole Hamels, who might have the best change up in baseball.

 

 

Carpenter was good, but we haven't seen what he can do in awhile.