Why so cynical?

[Dojji]

What is it with a certain brand of Red Sox fan who all they can see is the negative? Is it that they think that "mouthbreathing" fans exaggerate how good the team is so an "educated" fan must be the opposite?

 

More to the point, why is every little shake to the tree enough to get so many "die-hard" fans to fall out and start declaring that the era of the Red Sox is over every time the Yankees steal a march on them? You'd think everyone would be used to the whole "Yankees win the preseason, Sox win the postseason" mantra by now and just be able to let it roll off. Certainly fans as primed to be patient as we Sox fans should be able to steer a good course through rough seas.

 

Right now the seas aren't even particularly choppy. Seriously. This team is good. We've got a strong lineup, a deep pitching staff, a nice bullpen and good depth in the farm. We're primed to contend now and in the future. Why is fan faith so easily rattled just because the Yankees replaced a power-hitting 1B with 30-35 HR ability with... a power-hitting 1B with 30-35 HR ability?

 

What's more, the Yankees are the ones who have to make up ground against us this offseason. Their gaining talent doesn't put them over the top so much as it does pull them even. I'm game for a fair fight with New York if you are. We still have the depth to win a war of attrition any day.

 

So come out from under the table, step back from the ledge, wipe your eyes and get back on the wagon folks. We're going all the way this year.

[Paradisecity]

I don't think we are that bad. I also don't think we are as good as you say.

 

Our lineup is strong, but it is no longer the force it ws in 2003-2007. There are fewer phenominal bats and more definitive holes (C, primarily). This is a tough lineup, but no longer a lineup to be feared. Lets forget the Yankees for a second, and remember that there is a certain team in Florida that will have something to say about our dominance in the East.

 

Honestly, I have no problem not making the playoffs for a year or (god help us) two if it means setting the future of the sox up for the long term. I think that may prove itself to be the case this year. Focus on building, and if we look good at the break, make a move.

[a700hitter]

I don't think we are that bad. I also don't think we are as good as you say.

 

Our lineup is strong, but it is no longer the force it ws in 2003-2007. There are fewer phenominal bats and more definitive holes (C, primarily). This is a tough lineup, but no longer a lineup to be feared. Lets forget the Yankees for a second, and remember that there is a certain team in Florida that will have something to say about our dominance in the East.

 

Honestly, I have no problem not making the playoffs for a year or (god help us) two if it means setting the future of the sox up for the long term. I think that may prove itself to be the case this year. Focus on building, and if we look good at the break, make a move.

Health is a huge issue. How will Lowell and Ortiz recover. How's JD's back? What about Beckett's tingling fingers, and will Dice K blow his best stuff at the WBC?

[Paradisecity]

Yeah, I forgot health concerns. We may be in first place, or we may be 10 back by the break, in all honesty.

[Dojji]

Our lineup is... no longer the force it ws in 2003-2007.

 

fewer phenominal bats

more definitive holes (C, primarily).

no longer a lineup to be feared.

not making the playoffs

 

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. We probably have FEWER defensive holes and MORE positions filled with top notch bats than we did in 2003-04. Notably, we've turned Boston's traditionally weakest offensive and defensive position from a liability into an MVP. If our catcher situation turns out, which is a question you can only really ask during the season, I see no reason why our lineup isn't the best in the big leagues.

 

And did I mention, the rotation and bullpen is deeper, stronger, and more objectively talented than at any time in recent Sox memory? We lose a little off the top from Clemens or Pedro but we have better pitchers supporting the #1 than we have in a long time. I mean heck, in the championship 2007 season Julian Tavarez made 23 starts.

[Paradisecity]

Nice quote change. Nothing like making it seem completely negative and removing all positive pieces.

 

Do you work as a blurb editor for Hollywood movies or something? Christ...

[Paradisecity]

We probably have... defensive holes

 

 

I see... our lineup isn't the best in the big leagues.

 

 

Did I mention' date=' the rotation and bullpen is deeper, stronger, and more objectively talented...at any time in recent Sox memory? [/quote']

 

We lose a little off the top from Clemens or Pedro

 

 

Why don't you take an subjective statement that tries to look objectively at the issue (that you brought up as an argument point) as it is next time instead of picking words and sentence fragments that suit your argument and paint me in a different light than the one in which I painted myself.

[Dojji]

Nice quote change. Nothing like making it seem completely negative and removing all positive pieces.

 

Do you work as a blurb editor for Hollywood movies or something? Christ...

 

I was just making a point. Even while trying to sound "positive" you make it sound like we're the friggin' Blue Jays.

 

Objectivism not = pessimism. Nor does objectivism mean the same thing as rhetorically hedging your bets, which is a lot of what I'm criticizing here. Saying that this team might fall off the cliff is not objective, it's simply stating the obvious.

 

A completely objective look at this ballclub reveals that we were the best team in the league by pythagorean W-L despite significant underperformances from key players like Beckett, Lowell, Ortiz and Ellsbury. There is nothing wrong with saying that this team has a very good chance to go all the way and being completely OBJECTIVE with the analysis.

 

I mean, c'mon. we're fans, right? Aren't we, if anything, supposed to be insanely HIGH on our sports teams? What the hell are you afraid of?

[Cocos Disciples]

Just trying to be realistic, Dojji. It's going to be harder than other years, since we have three teams with legitimate shots at the East, and then another .500+ team in Toronto. I'm optimistic, but also cautious.

[Paradisecity]

I don't believe we are the Cleveland Guardians or the Mariners. I believe we will be one of the top 5 teams in baseball.

 

I also believe we play in the toughest division, in which 3 of the top 5 teams in baseball play.

 

I'm just being objective. We could win. Will we? Maybe. But I believe our chances next year won't be as good as our chances were this year unless something substantial happens, and Brad Penny and a spring training invitee aint cuttin' it.

[Dojji]

Just trying to be realistic' date=' Dojji. [/quote']

 

Not buying it. We don't know what " realistic" means until they've actually done it.

 

What you guys are doing amounts to hedging your bets -- trying to buy low now so you can sell high later. It's no more realistic than predicting 100 wins -- it's just safer and more comfortable since you don't feel like you're sticking your necks out.

 

Be a little brave, folks. All I'm asking you to do is actually ROOT for the sox, rather than preticting "reasonable" and "realistic" Eeyore style outcomes and acting personally offended the first time something goes wrong.

[Cocos Disciples]

Realistic means that this team has not done anything to improve besides a couple band-aids. The Yankees drastically improved and the Rays improved too. At this point, realistic means that there's a decent shot we don't make the playoffs.

[Dojji]

I don't believe we are the Cleveland Guardians or the Mariners. I believe we will be one of the top 5 teams in baseball.

 

I also believe we play in the toughest division, in which 3 of the top 5 teams in baseball play.

 

I'm just being objective. We could win. Will we? Maybe. But I believe our chances next year won't be as good as our chances were this year unless something substantial happens, and Brad Penny and a spring training invitee aint cuttin' it.

 

You sound like ESPN. I can listen to a columnist say thise things, I don't see why they have to come from a fan. What's wrong with being a little brave about it?

[Dojji]

Realistic means that this team has not done anything to improve besides a couple band-aids. The Yankees drastically improved and the Rays improved too. At this point' date=' realistic means that there's a decent shot we don't make the playoffs.[/quote']

 

That's not realistic, that's buying the media hype. The Yankees picked up those guys to replace lost players. They're not added on top of an already solid core they ARE the core. I'm sorry you're having trouble seeing that but it is reality. The Yankees are not all that.

 

I'm sick of the fear. And I'm sick of hearing how Teixeira will change the balance of power in the American League East, like potent hitters don't come to this division with that prediction attached to them at least once every two years. Anyone remember how A-Rod was going to restore the Yankee glory days? How'd that work out? How about Sheffield? Giambi? Abreu? We've all seen the song and dance before, shame on those of us who were fooled again.

 

This team doesn't NEED to improve. We're already, OBJECTIVELY, the best team in the AL East and the Yankees are spending that much money to try to keep up with US. Try to internalize that. THEY are TRAILING US.

 

As for Tampa Bay, the Rays were very lucky last year, they will not get that lucky again. I am perfectly comfortable predicting a playoff appearance for the Sox and see no reason why they won't take the division next year. Could something frekish happen? Yes. But it would take specific bad luck to the Red Sox like multiple key injuries to keep us out of the playoffs. Most teams should be so lucky as to be us.

[Paradisecity]

There is nothing wrong with being brave about it. There is nothing wrong with looking at it as it is either, which is where your issue exists.

 

I can cheer for my team and hope we do well and watch it unfold but I don't need to have a blind faith about it to be a fan, or a good one at that.

[Paradisecity]

 

As for Tampa Bay, the Rays were very lucky last year, they will not get that lucky again. I am perfectly comfortable predicting a playoff appearance for the Sox and see no reason why they won't take the division next year. Could something frekish happen? Yes. But it would take specific bad luck to the Red Sox like multiple key injuries to keep us out of the playoffs. Most teams should be so lucky as to be us.

 

What made them lucky? Are you forgetting the stars that they played without for extended periods?

[Paradisecity]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/teams/rays/injuries.html

 

Not to mention that they have more talent on the way, and players who only contributed more as the season progressed (the relief core, longoria, etc)

[Dojji]

looking at it as it is

 

Implying I don't. Bravo.

 

Seriously, I am looking at exactly the same facts you are and drawing a much more optimistic conclusion. Clearly, one of us is in error but I don't think the optimistic position needs to be implicitly dismissed as unrealistic by virtue of the pessimists and cynics waving the banner of so-called realism around.

[TheKilo]

 

Be a little brave, folks. All I'm asking you to do is actually ROOT for the sox, rather than preticting "reasonable" and "realistic" Eeyore style outcomes and acting personally offended the first time something goes wrong.

 

That's pathetic. Heaven forbid fans criticize the personnel decisions the team makes. If everyone here was waving the pom poms like you love to do there'd be no reason to actually discuss the happenings of the team.

 

Criticizing the FO for not landing Teixeira and questioning their policies on free agents and "rooting" for the Sox are not mutually exclusive - you can do both. I've said it all offseason, the two biggest question marks surrounding the Sox were the health of Lowell, Drew, and Ortiz and the stabilization of the lineup over the better part of the next decade. Outside of Pedroia, I do not have confidence that any player that suits up for the Sox in 2009 does so in 2012. Mark Teixeira solves both of those problems with certainty versus wishing and hoping for bouncebacks from a big man who is experiencing joint issues and a player in his thirties returning from hip surgery. I have not seen or heard anything out of Yawkey Way saying that Lars is anywhere close to being MLB-ready, at least before the 2011 season.

 

When you get a chubby for every prospect that the Sox develop or say "the FO can do no wrong" you are doing the exact thing you accuse those who may be more negative of doing - maybe it's you that needs to look at this team a little more objectively. Then again, you did say the Sox were screwed for the ALDS in the 8th inning of game 2.

 

I don't think you can really dispute the fact the Yankees and Rays are better than the Sox right now.

[Cocos Disciples]

Well, we're all rooting for the same outcome. I hope you're right, Dojji.

[TheKilo]

What made them lucky? Are you forgetting the stars that they played without for extended periods?

 

Yup. They'll get 162 out of Longoria, Crawford, and Upton.

 

Scary thought.

[Dojji]

What made them lucky? Are you forgetting the stars that they played without for extended periods?

 

What made them lucky was the fact that their run differential placed them outside the pennant race. They got lucky with key hits at key times and outperformance by washouts like Howell and Percival that are unlikely to recur.

 

I see no particular reason to believe that the Rays roster won't win more games than it loses but to presume them to be better than us just because of a flukish finish in the standings is insane.

 

For every Ray that was out, hurt or underperforming there's a corresponding Sox player so I don't see why this is such a compelling argument.

[Cocos Disciples]

And you said this in our discussion Kilo, but David Price should be a significant improvement over Edwin Jackson.

[Dojji]

Yup. They'll get 162 out of Longoria, Crawford, and Upton.

 

Scary thought.

 

Indeed. Almost as scary as a healthy Ortiz, Youkilis, Bay and Drew. Almost.

[TheKilo]

What made them lucky was the fact that their run differential placed them outside the pennant race. They got lucky with key hits at key times and outperformance by washouts like Howell and Percival that are unlikely to recur.

 

I see no particular reason to believe that the Rays roster won't win more games than it loses but to presume them to be better than us just because of a flukish finish in the standings is insane.

 

For every Ray that was out, hurt or underperforming there's a corresponding Sox player so I don't see why this is such a compelling argument.

 

Other than the fact the Sox finished two games behind the Rays last season.

[TheKilo]

Indeed. Almost as scary as a healthy Ortiz' date=' Youkilis, Bay and Drew. Almost.[/quote']

 

Nice of you to conveniently leave out Lowell - and I think it's a better bet for the TB trio to be healthier over the course of the season than Ortiz, Lowell, and Drew.

 

But hey - I like fear apparently. I LOVE watching the Yankees improve themselves and seeing our FO wish and hope for bouncebacks.

[Dojji]

Wht the heck am I the only one in this thread who's got the marbles to say his team is going to win anything? All I'm getting from you flock of chickens is worry over what everyone else has got. As if we can't match it.

 

Never thought I'd run into fans of a near-dynastic team that were this terrified of their own shadows. How about a little actual confidence in what this team has, is, and can do? I don't think that's too much to ask of the fanbase of a team that has failed to win 90 games once in the last 6 years.

[Paradisecity]

 

For every Ray that was out, hurt or underperforming there's a corresponding Sox player so I don't see why this is such a compelling argument.

 

Exactly. It isn't....EITHER WAY. They weren't unlucky. They weren't lucky either. If you truly believe luck can have such a huge effect on the game over the course of an entire season sans injuries, what the hell do you watch it for? "Gee, I really can't wait to root for my team to get lucky this year!???"

 

They were a well managed team with the ability to win close games based on their speed, run manufacturing, and solid bullpen. I'm not sure how this changes next year.

[Dojji]

Nice of you to conveniently leave out Lowell .

 

And the fact that I could make up a list of 4 devestating hitters and leave a perennial 20 HR threat out is somehow a knock on the Sox? Nice.

[Cocos Disciples]

Wht the heck am I the only one in this thread who's got the marbles to say his team is going to win anything? All I'm getting from you flock of chickens is worry over what everyone else has got. As if we can't match it.

 

Never thought I'd run into fans of a near-dynastic team that were this terrified of their own shadows. How about a little actual confidence in what this team has, is, and can do? I don't think that's too much to ask of the fanbase of a team that has failed to win 90 games once in the last 6 years.

 

Does not having the utmost confidence in the team make us worse fans?