Why so cynical?

[Cocos Disciples]

You mean the Yankees, before the rise of the current Red Sox ownership? I agree.

 

Yankees missed last year. They had a great run when the Red Sox tried to compete by buying the 'best available free agent', and they couldn't compete as well as they do now. Shocker.

 

Now the division is a lot harder. In the Yankees' run there was a lot less competition in the East. Now that there are three legitimate division winners, it's unrealistic to ask for constant playoff appearances, which is what I was saying.

[jacksonianmarch]

Especially if the Rays find a way to lock up their young talent.

[Dipre]

Fail

 

The word "fail" is often used to disapprove of a person or said persons' activity, opinion or behavior. Can also be blended with other words for variations like "failboat". This can mean that someone thinks whatever you are doing is not good.

 

Examples:

 

jacksonianmarch FAILS at having credibility.

 

jacksonianmarch FAILS at understanding context in order to make lame jokes.

 

jacksonianmarch FAILS at life.

 

Looks like someone who lives in the U.S needs to learn about the variations of modern English, i.e internet slang.

 

You should be ashamed that someone who, quoting Gom "Would need to cross the sea on a floating door to get to the US, knows a lot more about your language than you do.

 

Oh, and not only do i beat you by knowing the different meanings that a single word may have, i also write in a much more correct manner.

 

So how about you take a floating door over here?

 

At least you wouldn't FAIL at humor.........

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

We added Nady mid season. If you go around the offense' date=' the only slot that was totally open after Abreu and Giamboids split was 1b. Adding Swisher filled that void. Adding Tex is a 100% improvement.[/quote']

 

Swisher pales in comparison to either Abreu and Giambi. Abreu's OPS and BA shits all over Swisher's, and the two hit had pretty identical HR totals. Giambi's average isn't much better than Swisher's, but his own OPS and HR totals beat the hell out of Swisher.

 

If we retain Pettitte, then our rotation 1-5 is stronger than it has been in 6 yrs. I dont get your point. To say we did more replacing than adding is also wrong.

 

First, I heard the other day that NY is no longer looking at Pettitte and wants to stick with Hughes. Probably bunk, but who am I to say.

 

 

Your rotation is as strong as its been for a while. Our rotation figures to be as strong if not stronger.

[example1]

in theory you should get healthier. I just dont believe that the lineup around the now healthy Ortiz and Lowell (if they really are healthy) will be able to sustain their supernatural offensive production.

 

Why not? Every batter in the lineup works pitchers and makes tough outs. They have 'lesser' players who would bat cleanup on just about any other team in baseball. I think guys like Bay and Drew are being vastly underestimated by a number of people here.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Fail

 

The word "fail" is often used to disapprove of a person or said persons' activity, opinion or behavior. Can also be blended with other words for variations like "failboat". This can mean that someone thinks whatever you are doing is not good.

 

Examples:

 

jacksonianmarch FAILS at having credibility.

 

jacksonianmarch FAILS at understanding context in order to make lame jokes.

 

jacksonianmarch FAILS at life.

 

Looks like someone who lives in the U.S needs to learn about the variations of modern English, i.e internet slang.

 

You should be ashamed that someone who, quoting Gom "Would need to cross the sea on a floating door to get to the US, knows a lot more about your language than you do.

 

Oh, and not only do i beat you by knowing the different meanings that a single word may have, i also write in a much more correct manner.

 

So how about you take a floating door over here?

 

At least you wouldn't FAIL at humor.........

I LOLed.

[example1]

Now the division is a lot harder. In the Yankees' run there was a lot less competition in the East. Now that there are three legitimate division winners' date=' it's unrealistic to ask for constant playoff appearances, which is what I was saying.[/quote']

 

That would be true of any of the three teams who are contending, right? It's a close division, let's just not give it to the Yankees or Rays before they have played 162 games.

[Cocos Disciples]

Last 3 yrs:

Abreu OPS: .886, .814, .842

Swisher OPS: .865, .836, .752

 

I think it's fair to assume Swisher's 2008 is an outlier. Other than that the OPS's are pretty similar.

[Cocos Disciples]

That would be true of any of the three teams who are contending' date=' right? It's a close division, let's just not give it to the Yankees or Rays before they have played 162 games.[/quote']

 

Okay, but I was responding to this:

 

And that is your right to do so. I just find it funny how many sox fans have taken the front running thing a bit far and dont remember their "roots". When making the playoffs 2-4 yrs out of every decade was the norm. Now' date=' if they miss the playoffs, the fan base goes berserk.[/b'] Funny how the perception changed in a short span of time.

 

I'm not giving the division to anyone, that's not what this was about.

[example1]

Okay, but I was responding to this:

 

 

 

I'm not giving the division to anyone, that's not what this was about.

 

I hear you C.D., I hear you. I just feel like some people are claiming that the Sox are hands down the 3rd best team in the division and I don't hear a lot of people challenging that premise, which I think is is certainly an unsure proposition.

[TheKilo]

The fun part is I got about the same level and variety of responses in this thread as I got with every other attempt at communication I've made here. Right down to the duncetard "fail" meme.

 

lol I'm so f***ing glad you grace this site with your presence.

 

Probably should have known better than to make this thread. It really doesn't accomplish anything for me to harangue people about a sports team. But it stuns me just how quickly Sox fans are conceding the high ground back to the Yankees just because Einsteinbrenner opens the wallet.

 

Why not? They finished five games behind the Sox last season, suffered just as many injuries as the Sox did, and made up the difference by adding Tex, AJ, and CC.

 

It's called objectivity. Try it sometime.

 

What happened to the Red Sox never saying die? Half of you saw Teixeira in pinstripes and said "kill me now!" That amazes me.

 

lulz kill me now lulz

 

Oh wait, was that too duncetard for you?

 

We were a hundred runs better than the Yankees last year and yet for all the talk it sounds like the Yankees now have this insurmountable lead in the talent race just because they replaced 3 of their players with younger models. I don't get it. It doesn't make logical sense.

 

It also doesn't make any f***ing sense to say that Tampa and New York are CHASING US because EVERYONE WANTS TO BE US and WE WERE 100 RUNS BETTER THAN NY and WE OUTPERFORMED OUR PYTHAG.

 

If the big splash move from this FO is Brad f***ing Penny, when they make money hand over fist every goddamned season, the fan base has a right to be pissed off.

 

It's called discussion...but I see we can't handle it.

[TheKilo]

I hear you C.D.' date=' I hear you. I just feel like some people are claiming that the Sox are hands down the 3rd best team in the division and I don't hear a lot of people challenging that premise, which I think is is certainly an unsure proposition.[/quote']

 

Tampa was the better team over 162 and 7 last season. They get a healthy Evan Longoria, BJ Upton, and David Price. Tell me where the Sox have improved their team right now to call them better than the Rays.

 

New York filled the holes they had on their team with the 2007 Cy Young winner, a guy who won 18 games last season and struck out more than one guy per inning, and a .950 OPS switch hitting GG 1B.

 

Boston signed Josh Bard and Brad Penny, and still has holes at C, SP, and OF, not to mention huge question marks at RF, DH, and 3B.

 

Why is it so hard to believe that the Red Sox are the third best team in the division right now? I'd place more money on them finishing 3rd than 1st or 2nd.

[TheKilo]

I agree with Doiji's thinking in some parts.

 

Specially how douchy it is to go "oh naw the red sox suxxor ass, tha yanks r gunna win the division by 35,000,000 games!!!" insert dumb smiley and stupid comment about the FO here.

 

Yea, the FO has holes to fill.

 

The Sox are not a finished product.

 

But it's f***ING DECEMBER people.

 

And shut the f*** up about Teixeira, they might have f***ed up the negotiations as many of you claim here.......but how the f*** would any of us know?

 

We were not there.......and everyone's just pissed because the Yankees got him, but so f***ing what?

 

How many times a lot of the complainers here said Tex was a LUXURY, not a NEED, and now come crying like little bitches because the FO didn't wanna give in to Boras' game and give him a 200+ mill package.

 

IMO, it was a convincing contract offer, since 170 mill would have been a top 10 all-time contract, and so the Yankees got him for 10 more mill, but can you honestly say you know what went down there to convert some douchebag sportswriter's comment into a fact?

 

How quick we are to forget that this FO's MO has made them become THE model organization in baseball.

 

So stop the sour grapes and the ********, and at least wait until the 2009 Red Sox are a finishes before continuing to sound like 4-year-olds who didn't get the gift they wanted.

 

That is all.

 

95% of this post includes sayings that no one on this board has mentioned.

 

They have plenty of time to improve the team. Josh Bard and Brad Penny don't inspire confidence. Right now, they are the third best team.

[example1]

Tampa was the better team over 162 and 7 last season. They get a healthy Evan Longoria, BJ Upton, and David Price. Tell me where the Sox have improved their team right now to call them better than the Rays.

 

In theory, the Red Sox will have a healthy Ortiz and Lowell, who should improve the team because, in theory, Kotsay and Casey won't be starting extra games. Beckett should be better than last year. Buchholz couldn't be worse. I have reason to think that having Lowrie at SS should be better than a half-season of Lugo. I also think Ellsbury will be more productive than he was last year.

 

Tell me why you can have so much confidence in a healthy Longoria, and Upton, but you can't believe that having even two of the guys listed above wouldn't be an improvement for the Sox?

 

New York filled the holes they had on their team with the 2007 Cy Young winner, a guy who won 18 games last season and struck out more than one guy per inning, and a .950 OPS switch hitting GG 1B.

 

The Yankees got better. We get it. I want to see how they come together before crowning them gods.

 

Why is it so hard to believe that the Red Sox are the third best team in the division right now? I'd place more money on them finishing 3rd than 1st or 2nd.

 

 

It's not "hard to believe" that the Sox are the third best team, that's just the point. At the same time, I don't find it "hard to believe" that the Sox are the second best team... not just in the AL East, but in the AL, perhaps in all of baseball. If we jumped ahead a year and someone said "the Rays had injuries and just never put it together like they did in 08" that wouldn't be hard to believe either. Just like it wouldn't be hard to believe that Burnett could get injured. The point isn't that it is hard to believe, the point is that nothing is set in stone, so why act like it is and condecend on others if they don't see it your way?

 

I'm optimistic about this team because I thought they were very good last year, and the year before. They didn't lose anyone significant and they don't have a bunch of REALLY old players (wakefield aside). They have a solid pen, a very good defense, and batters 1-9 who make difficult outs.

[TheKilo]

I find this site to be a bit cynical for my taste lately too. I don't buy the "3rd best team" argument. I think that this s*** gets worked out over the course of the season. The Sox could win the division' date=' they could finish 2nd, they could finish 3rd.[/quote']

 

Well no s*** it gets worked out over the course of the season. The purpose of the offseason is to prepare yourself for the upcoming season.

 

Objectively, who's the team that heads into 2009 with the best chance of winning the division? It's not Boston. Not right now. I'd say Tampa, followed by New York, followed by Boston.

 

I'm not sure why everyone is ready to just give the AL East title to the Yankees and the Wild Card to the Rays. I don't get it. On paper I would likely want to have the Sox over any of the other three if I combine MLB club and minor league talent.

 

For 2009? This is an argument I'd like to hear. What prospects are even close to making an impact for the Sox in 2009? Clay or Bowden? I'd rather have David Price. Jeff Bailey and Jonathan Van Every? OOOOHHHHHHH excited!

 

Tampa has had a decade of top 10 picks in their farm system. Something tells me their guys may be better suited to make a more immediate impact.

 

There is so much that can happen over the course of the season that I find the determinism to be kind of sickening. That's about all I'll say on the topic here.

 

Holy crap why is this so difficult to get? There are members here who are frustrated that the FO feels the best way to improve the team are bounceback years from a 35 year old coming off hip surgery and a guy pushing 275 who has had wrist and knee problems the last two seasons. They did nothing to improve the team in 2007, which is fine because they won the WS.

 

However, when you are the 2nd most profitable team in baseball and then cry poverty, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sorry if this offends others.

 

It's tiresome to hear so many people bitching that we don't have a $150m payroll. It would be okay with people if we had signed Brad Penny 4 years ago at 12m a year, even if he was injured. They would say "at least we're putting our financial muscle to work". If we had a lot of s***** contracts but were spending 150m everyone would feel better? I don't think so.

 

Who is saying this? I'm happy the Sox exercise some restraint with most contracts. Johnny Damon. Pedro Martinez. Etc.

 

What I don't get, is Mark Teixeira IS the guy who spend big time FA dollars on. They made him their #1 priority and did nothing but wax poetic about the guy.

 

Then something went wrong, JWH sent out an unprofessional (pissy) email and then cried poverty when they lost the bid by $10 million over 8 years. These are the facts as they played out - no conjecture or projection at all.

 

I haven't received an answer on this board yet - if you don't spend that kind of coin on a guy like Mark Teixeira, who do you spend it on?

[TheKilo]

In theory, the Red Sox will have a healthy Ortiz and Lowell, who should improve the team because, in theory, Kotsay and Casey won't be starting extra games. Beckett should be better than last year. Buchholz couldn't be worse. I have reason to think that having Lowrie at SS should be better than a half-season of Lugo. I also think Ellsbury will be more productive than he was last year.

 

Tell me why you can have so much confidence in a healthy Longoria, and Upton, but you can't believe that having even two of the guys listed above wouldn't be an improvement for the Sox?

 

I'll play.

 

If the improvements from the Sox players you mention don't equal more than two wins from the improvement of the Tampa contingent, the Sox finish behind the Rays in 2009.

 

The improvement from Beckett will be more than offset from Jackson -> Price.

 

Longoria is a 100% certainty to be more productive than a 35 year old coming off hip surgery.

 

BJ Upton has chunks of Jacoby Ellsbury in his stool.

 

 

The Yankees got better. We get it. I want to see how they come together before crowning them gods.

 

Do you get it? If so, why is calling the Sox the 3rd best team in the division such a crime?

 

 

 

 

It's not "hard to believe" that the Sox are the third best team, that's just the point. At the same time, I don't find it "hard to believe" that the Sox are the second best team... not just in the AL East, but in the AL, perhaps in all of baseball. If we jumped ahead a year and someone said "the Rays had injuries and just never put it together like they did in 08" that wouldn't be hard to believe either. Just like it wouldn't be hard to believe that Burnett could get injured. The point isn't that it is hard to believe, the point is that nothing is set in stone, so why act like it is and condecend on others if they don't see it your way?

 

Because right now, 12/29/2008, the Red Sox are the 3rd best team in the ALE. I find it difficult for anyone to refute that, which is all I've said all along.

 

I'm optimistic about this team because I thought they were very good last year, and the year before. They didn't lose anyone significant and they don't have a bunch of REALLY old players (wakefield aside). They have a solid pen, a very good defense, and batters 1-9 who make difficult outs.

 

They can be a good team and the 3rd best in the division, and what does that get them?

[example1]

I HAVE ANSWERED YOU OVER AND OVER. If you don't like it, tough s*** Kilo.

 

Spending money doesn't mean getting quality. Your assumption is the exact same as you accused the Yankees of yesterday: why do you assume that they have to spend all of that money on players, even if players aren't available? You praise them for not spending on guys like Pedro and Damon, but then you rip on them for not having a higher payroll, as if a higher payroll means that they are patting you on the back saying "it's okay Kilo, it's okay. It will all be alright. It's okay". It just doesn't f***ing matter.

 

Who will they spend it on? I don't know, lets check in next year at this time and see. Youkilis? Bay? Holliday? Lester?

 

If they resigned all of those guys and had a team that cost 20m more would that suddenly make you giddy? No. So stop asking the same redundant question that doesn't actually apply. Yes, they were willing to drop coin on Teixeira. He didn't want to come to Boston and is now a Yankee. We're both over it.

 

If you go to the store to buy something expensive, and FOR WHATEVER REASON you can't get it (they are sold out, the thing is broken, it isn't what you thought it was) do you turn around and go spend that money on something else? I don't.

 

You think if they spent 30m on 2 years of Sheets, 100m on 6 years of Adam Dunn, and got Varitek for 2 years at 20m total, you would be happy that they dropped 150m on three players and lost 3 draft picks while picking up players who are redundant? Personally, you come off like a spoiled kid who didn't get what he wanted and demands someone get him what he wants. I know you're NOT that way, as I've always been impressed with you on this board; you just ask questions that don't have obvious answers but which aren't really valid questions anyway. Where do they spend the money they were going to spend on Teixeira? Who says they HAVE to spend that money to be competitive? You said yourself they were likely a 95 win team, so why spend money needlessly when there isn't an obvious answer?

 

If Pujols were available do you think they would forego spending on him? How about someone like Matt Cain or Felix Hernandez? If you truly believe that they wouldn't be interested in those guys then you're delusional... which you're not.

 

Basically, I think you set up a false premise (spending money = getting better) and then run with it. I don't agree with your premise, I don't agree that they have to get better to compete. I think they have competed nearly every year since 2003 and I think they will do so again this year.

 

Meanwhile I hear about them inquiring about Hanley Ramirez and I'm not shocked. To me THAT is the kind of move that makes lots of sense. You ask what have they been doing while not getting Teixeira and not negotiating with Youkilis, and it turns out they've been asking how to get Hanley Ramirez. They are NOT dealing Buchholz and Ellsbury etc., to get Santana so they have to resign him at 22m/ year. Drop Buchholz and Ellsbury for a guy who is signed for 5 years and who makes your team better for a decade potentially.

 

I think we can just agree to disagree. I'm going to continue to find your pessimism and certainty about the intentions of the club to get rich and treat us all as suckers for paying to watch them kind of grating.

[example1]

I'll play.

 

If the improvements from the Sox players you mention don't equal more than two wins from the improvement of the Tampa contingent, the Sox finish behind the Rays in 2009.

 

The improvement from Beckett will be more than offset from Jackson -> Price.

 

You are crowning Price to be God, despite what happened to Buchholz and Hughes, Kershaw and Bailey. Price is a great prospect. I think Kazmir has slowly gotten worse the last few years, and he wasn't the pitcher in the playoffs (or down the stretch for that matter) that he was in 2006 against the Sox.

 

Longoria is a 100% certainty to be more productive than a 35 year old coming off hip surgery.

 

Wow. 100% certainty. I don't play in 100% claims. Longoria will probably be better than Lowell.

 

BJ Upton has chunks of Jacoby Ellsbury in his stool.

 

He's a good player who had 9 HR and a .784 OPS last year. I think the Rays have less certainty that he's god than you do.

 

Do you get it? If so, why is calling the Sox the 3rd best team in the division such a crime?

 

It's not a crime, it's just a claim that you can't back up. It's opinion and opinions are like *******s, everyone's got one. Yours are just much more important than everyone elses, apparently. Is this what you want to hear: "Kilo's right. Sox are the 3rd best team. I agree." There you got it. It doesn't much matter if I believe it or not, and I don't believe it because the only way it is proven is over the course of the season. The season hasn't happened yet so any claim is hypothetical at best.

 

Because right now, 12/29/2008, the Red Sox are the 3rd best team in the ALE. I find it difficult for anyone to refute that, which is all I've said all along.

 

Right, you think they are the 3rd best team in the ALE and you find it difficult for anyone to refute what you think, which is all you've been saying this whole time. We get it. You believe your own opinions. I'm going to wait for the season to play itself out.

 

What I KNOW is that the Sox, Rays and Yankees all have good teams. On paper I think the Yankees are the best team. Based on last year's performance I think the Rays--if they continued to play like they did last year--might be the favorites. I think when I combine how they've played the past few years, and the teams on paper the Sox are the best team. I'm not so certain about anything that I'm going to get all hot and bothered about it and I'm not going to get cocky and pretend like I know how the season is going to turn out before it has been played. It doesn't work well when you're dealing with other people who follow the game and have their own opinions.

 

They can be a good team and the 3rd best in the division, and what does that get them?

 

I don't know, respect from me? If this team wins 95 games and doesn't make the playoffs then ho hum. I'm not going to stamp my foot and bitch about stuff that isn't controllable at this point. The Yankees have Teixeira. We all know the Sox would be better if they had him, but they don't. What more is there to say?

[TheKilo]

You are crowning Price to be God' date=' despite what happened to Buchholz and Hughes, Kershaw and Bailey. Price is a great prospect. I think Kazmir has slowly gotten worse the last few years, and he wasn't the pitcher in the playoffs (or down the stretch for that matter) that he was in 2006 against the Sox. [/quote']

 

David Price is a very, very good bet to be a substantial upgrade over Edwin Jackson.

 

 

 

Wow. 100% certainty. I don't play in 100% claims. Longoria will probably be better than Lowell.

 

Fine, not 100%. What would you agree with? 75%? 90%?

 

 

 

He's a good player who had 9 HR and a .784 OPS last year. I think the Rays have less certainty that he's god than you do.

 

With a shredded shoulder. Did you happen to watch him in the playoffs?

 

 

 

It's not a crime, it's just a claim that you can't back up. It's opinion and opinions are like *******s, everyone's got one. Yours are just much more important than everyone elses, apparently. Is this what you want to hear: "Kilo's right. Sox are the 3rd best team. I agree." There you got it. It doesn't much matter if I believe it or not, and I don't believe it because the only way it is proven is over the course of the season. The season hasn't happened yet so any claim is hypothetical at best.

 

It is absolutely a hypothetical. I've given my reasons as to why I feel the Sox are the 3rd best team in the ALE.

 

I couldn't give a s*** less if people agree with me or not. I get that it's proven over the course of the season.

 

What I don;t understand is why people can't offer an opinion on what they feel. They cop out and say "I prefer to let it play out." Well duh. I'd be interested in hearing how you think the teams stack up 1-3, instead of just offering excuses.

 

 

 

 

 

What I KNOW is that the Sox, Rays and Yankees all have good teams. On paper I think the Yankees are the best team. Based on last year's performance I think the Rays--if they continued to play like they did last year--might be the favorites. I think when I combine how they've played the past few years, and the teams on paper the Sox are the best team. I'm not so certain about anything that I'm going to get all hot and bothered about it and I'm not going to get cocky and pretend like I know how the season is going to turn out before it has been played. It doesn't work well when you're dealing with other people who follow the game and have their own opinions.

 

What a wonderful thread - because I have offered dissenting opinions on the way this offseason has gone so far I am cocky and I am a duncetard. I'm learning so much.

 

 

 

I don't know, respect from me? If this team wins 95 games and doesn't make the playoffs then ho hum. I'm not going to stamp my foot and bitch about stuff that isn't controllable at this point. The Yankees have Teixeira. We all know the Sox would be better if they had him, but they don't. What more is there to say?

 

There is no way the ALE will have three 95+ win teams this season.

[TheKilo]

I totally agree that Hanley Ramirez would be the deal to make if they are so concerned about not spending coin on big time FAs.

 

Let's see what this FO can come up with....a Halladay or Hanley trade would make me look like an idiot and I'd be glad to be made as such.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Then something went wrong' date=' JWH sent out an unprofessional (pissy) email and[b'] then cried poverty when they lost the bid by $10 million over 8 years.[/b] These are the facts as they played out - no conjecture or projection at all.

 

If the Red Sox did increase their offer by $10 mil, you don't think the Yankees would have increased theirs? The Yankees would have increased their offer no matter what the Red Sox offered. Tex prefered the Yankees anyway. It was an unwinnable battle.

[TheKilo]

That may have very well been the case, but it's not how it happened.

 

I was more upset with Henry's email than anything else.

[Gom]

You know what's funny? That your front office thought they could get Hanley Ramirez for Buchholz and Ellsbury.

 

If I was the Marlins, there isn't a single person on the Red Sox I would trade Hanley for. Include Pedroia, Youkilis, Papelbon, Beckett...not a single one. Funny.

 

Trust me, if Hanley was on the market, expect every team, including the Mets and Yankees and Dodgers to get involved.

 

I agree with Kilo on nearly every point except the Sox being a 3rd place team. I just don't know what the rankings are for the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays. I think the Rays are better than the Red Sox. I think the Yankees are the "wild card" because there are more variables due to the free agents. We just don't know how they will pan out. If CC, AJ, and Tex play to last years numbers, the Yankees win the East. If they fall off, they finish 3rd. Somewhere in the middle, they sneak into the playoffs.

 

The truth is...you guys can't compensate for age. The Rays are a young team that will get BETTER. You can safely project a lot of players to improve. Who exactly on the Sox will improve? Pedroia had a career year. Paps is as good as they come. Youk? Maybe, but he can't get much better.

 

About the only ones who can improve are Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, Beckett and MDC. Three bullpen guys, a starting pitcher and your CF. Your downturns? Ortiz. Lowell. Pedroia. Drew. Wakefield. Bay [as from the production of Manny]. Your catching situation.

 

You're an older team. As it stands, your team is worse today than when the season ended. Older players tend to regress. Younger players tend to improve, to a point. Exactly who do you have to be excited about? The Rays have a full season of Longoria...a resurgent Upton...a ROY candidate in Price...and their whole team is under 30.

 

Same thing with us. It's why I'm not crazy about trading Nady. I'm not crazy about Nady, but with a cranky Damon, and a rusty Matsui, the best way to keep them fresh over the season is to rotate Damon, Matsui, Nady, Cabrera/Gardner, and Swisher in the OF and DH, and using Posada and Swisher to give Tex a break. Let Girardi have a bench.

 

Kilo...don't bother. The objectivity on this board is gone. You can count the objective people on one hand here.

[Cocos Disciples]

What I don;t understand is why people can't offer an opinion on what they feel. They cop out and say "I prefer to let it play out." Well duh. I'd be interested in hearing how you think the teams stack up 1-3, instead of just offering excuses.

 

Right now I would go: Yankees, Rays, Sox.

 

Oh what am I saying? I meant: you're a duncetard. You duncetard, you.

[Cocos Disciples]

You know what's funny? That your front office thought they could get Hanley Ramirez for Buchholz and Ellsbury.

 

I would think it was more of a feeler than a straight offer.

[a700hitter]

If the Red Sox did increase their offer by $10 mil' date=' you don't think the Yankees would have increased theirs? The Yankees would have increased their offer no matter what the Red Sox offered. Tex prefered the Yankees anyway. It was an unwinnable battle.[/quote']This is a rationalization not a fact.

[example1]

David Price is a very' date=' very good bet to be a substantial upgrade over Edwin Jackson. [/quote']

 

Yes. Yes he is.

 

 

Fine, not 100%. What would you agree with? 75%? 90%?

 

What does it matter. If it isn't 100% it is just a probability and we will need to see how it plays out. Longoria could get injured, he could slump for the first third, or he could be David Wright to Lowell's Goliath Wrong (bad pun, sorry).

 

With a shredded shoulder. Did you happen to watch him in the playoffs?

 

Tisk tisk. If I said the same thing about anyone else you would rip on me. FWIW, Upton didn't do s*** in the WS.

 

It is absolutely a hypothetical. I've given my reasons as to why I feel the Sox are the 3rd best team in the ALE.

 

It's all hypothetical and subjective. So when you say:

 

Objectively, who's the team that heads into 2009 with the best chance of winning the division? It's not Boston. Not right now. I'd say Tampa, followed by New York, followed by Boston.

 

I call foul. That's all. I don't think it is objective. I would say that objectively the kind-of underperforming Sox team of 2008, mired in controversy with injuries and a slugger who would occasionally refuse to play, put up a lot of runs and prevented a lot of runs. By that objective measure, with a subjective addition of a few more, and a subtraction of a few more from that, they are still a very good club. "Objectively" is a word that doesn't carry much weight with me. It's ultimately all subjective, just based on whatever objective facts you (or I) posit to make our particular case.

 

I couldn't give a s*** less if people agree with me or not. I get that it's proven over the course of the season.

 

Of course you 'get it' but you post with some ferocity when there are people here who disagree with you, which makes it seem like you do care if people disagree with you. You probably don't care that much, but you ask them to explain themselves and ask the same redundant questions when you don't like the answers that you get. It seems like you do care.

 

What I don;t understand is why people can't offer an opinion on what they feel. They cop out and say "I prefer to let it play out." Well duh. I'd be interested in hearing how you think the teams stack up 1-3, instead of just offering excuses.

 

Who is going to win the Super Bowl? I want an objective answer, none of this cop-out "we will have to see" s***. Why give an answer as if it is certainty when the whole world knows your just guessing. That's the kind of lame s*** that Colin Cowherd does and anyone with a critical mind takes it with a grain of salt. It turns into a predictions thread, nothing more.

 

What a wonderful thread - because I have offered dissenting opinions on the way this offseason has gone so far I am cocky and I am a duncetard. I'm learning so much.

 

You have to admit sometimes you're a bit cocky--any Sox fan with some serious knowledge will slip into that occasionally... s***, look at me! Look at ORS! (Sorry ORS, I kid, I kid). We all can be that way. A duncetard!?!? I never called you that.

 

Kilo, I think you're probably my favorite or second favorite poster here. You have a unique perspective and you shoot straight. I'm sorry if I've offended you over baseball, and I guarantee that we would enjoy drinking a beer together and arguing this s*** in person. Again, sorry if I somehow slipped the word duncetard into anything I said--even if I've never used the word and hope to never use it again...

 

There is no way the ALE will have three 95+ win teams this season.

 

I agree. The Sox may be unfortunate like the Patriots were this year, in that their division may squeeze otherwise good, playoff caliber teams out of the playoffs. I wouldn't be shocked. Even if the Sox are lucky enough (because luck is largely involved over 162) another qualified team may not... perhaps through no fault of its own. That's just the way the ball bounces.

[example1]

You know what's funny? That your front office thought they could get Hanley Ramirez for Buchholz and Ellsbury.

 

You know what's funny? That you treat that like it is fact, when, in fact, it is not.

 

If I was the Marlins, there isn't a single person on the Red Sox I would trade Hanley for. Include Pedroia, Youkilis, Papelbon, Beckett...not a single one. Funny.

 

And so your Marlins would continue to struggle to be in the middle of the pack in the NL East. Every player should have their price.

 

You wouldn't give up Hanley for a package of Papelbon, Pedroia, Ortiz and Ellsbury, with Anderson and Lowrie thrown in for good measure? What a stupid overgeneralization to make Gom. Geez...

 

Trust me, if Hanley was on the market, expect every team, including the Mets and Yankees and Dodgers to get involved.

 

Who says he is on the market. This is the first I've heard of anyone enquiring about him.

 

I think the Rays are better than the Red Sox. I think the Yankees are the "wild card" because there are more variables due to the free agents. We just don't know how they will pan out. If CC, AJ, and Tex play to last years numbers, the Yankees win the East. If they fall off, they finish 3rd. Somewhere in the middle, they sneak into the playoffs.

 

Wow, bold prediction Gom. So the season will have to play out before you can know for sure? Sounds like you agree with everyone else.

 

The truth is...you guys can't compensate for age. The Rays are a young team that will get BETTER. You can safely project a lot of players to improve. Who exactly on the Sox will improve? Pedroia had a career year. Paps is as good as they come. Youk? Maybe, but he can't get much better.

 

About the only ones who can improve are Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, Beckett and MDC. Three bullpen guys, a starting pitcher and your CF.

 

Yeah, Buchholz has no chance of doing better than he did last year and the improvement of the starting CF and SS has no bearing on how a team does. For that matter, it will be hard to improve on Tek's .220 AVG and zero power. Maybe they'll put a batboy in there and hope for the best.

 

Your downturns? Ortiz. Lowell. Pedroia. Drew. Wakefield. Bay [as from the production of Manny]. Your catching situation.

 

Again, I think catcher will be better than last year--almost regardless of who it is. Ortiz had a pretty bad year so I expect he'll return to something better. Lowell missed a good chunk of the year too. Pedroia may have a worse year... of course, most players don't peak at 24 so any downturn could be followed by an upturn the following year. Manny caused a lot of trouble for this team and Bay won't. You can call it a non-factor if you want, but the team went into a pretty bad skid near the deadline and a number of them blamed it directly on the mood in the clubhouse during a west coast swing. A few games here, a few games there...

 

You're an older team. As it stands, your team is worse today than when the season ended. Older players tend to regress. Younger players tend to improve, to a point. Exactly who do you have to be excited about?

 

Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Bay, Drew, Ortiz, Beckett, Matsuzaka, Lester, Buchholz, Masterson and Papelbon? Maybe Bowden thrown in there for good measure...

 

The Rays have a full season of Longoria...a resurgent Upton...a ROY candidate in Price...and their whole team is under 30.

 

When I look up ages it's funny. I see this:

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rosters

 

Maybe it's not updated, but when I click on the teams it seems updated from what I can tell. The Red Sox are, as a team, .5 years older than Tampa, while the Yankees are .8 years older than the Sox, and 1.3 years older than Tampa, as a team. The Rays rank 14th, the Sox rank 17th and the Yankees rank 26th. Weird. I would have expected a huge gap between the 'old' Red Sox and the super young Rays. Weird.

 

Same thing with us. It's why I'm not crazy about trading Nady. I'm not crazy about Nady, but with a cranky Damon, and a rusty Matsui, the best way to keep them fresh over the season is to rotate Damon, Matsui, Nady, Cabrera/Gardner, and Swisher in the OF and DH, and using Posada and Swisher to give Tex a break. Let Girardi have a bench.

 

I actually agree with you. Unless they get something nice in return Nady is a nice piece to have.

 

Kilo...don't bother. The objectivity on this board is gone. You can count the objective people on one hand here.

 

Sure Gom. Is this like when you were so objective about the way that VORP works (it gets exponentially harder to get VORP points, so the difference between one number and the next is actually 'many' numbers), or about the vast age difference between the Red Sox and the Rays, or the Red Sox and the Yankees?

 

We all do our best to stay objective. Since all you do is s*** on your own team, and since nobody here actually cares to discuss the Yankees in depth, I suppose it is easy to come in and pretend to be the voice of reason, while your maniac cat shoots is absurd machine gun into space. TheKilo knows what's what. You're a good poster here, but you don't have access to some level of objectivity that nobody else can touch, or that very few can aspire to. This isn't your first time around the track, so nobody's fooled.

[Gom]

You know what's funny? That you treat that like it is fact, when, in fact, it is not.

"The Marlins were said to be most interested in a center fielder, and discussions apparently centered on Boston's promising youngster Jacoby Ellsbury, talented pitching prospect Clay Buchholz and others in a package for Ramirez, who began in Boston's organization."

 

This is from Heyman and Verducci. Here's the link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/12/29/heyman.verducci.hanley.red.sox/index.html

And so your Marlins would continue to struggle to be in the middle of the pack in the NL East. Every player should have their price.

Of course. There isn't a player in the Red Sox organization I'd trade Ramirez for. The Yankees...maybe. Only Arod. That may be about it, and even then, with his contract, I probably wouldn't.

You wouldn't give up Hanley for a package of Papelbon, Pedroia, Ortiz and Ellsbury, with Anderson and Lowrie thrown in for good measure? What a stupid overgeneralization to make Gom. Geez...

Read my quote. "If I was the Marlins, there isn't a single person on the Red Sox I would trade Hanley for." Singular. Not plural. No SINGLE person. Not a package.

Yeah, Buchholz has no chance of doing better than he did last year and the improvement of the starting CF and SS has no bearing on how a team does. For that matter, it will be hard to improve on Tek's .220 AVG and zero power. Maybe they'll put a batboy in there and hope for the best.

Buchholz is your Kennedy, with more talent. Tek's value offensively is s***, but behind the plate, he's a godsend. I expect the Red Sox staff ERA to shoot up by a quarter point if he's not brought back.

Again, I think catcher will be better than last year--almost regardless of who it is. Ortiz had a pretty bad year so I expect he'll return to something better. Lowell missed a good chunk of the year too. Pedroia may have a worse year... of course, most players don't peak at 24 so any downturn could be followed by an upturn the following year. Manny caused a lot of trouble for this team and Bay won't. You can call it a non-factor if you want, but the team went into a pretty bad skid near the deadline and a number of them blamed it directly on the mood in the clubhouse during a west coast swing. A few games here, a few games there...

..and the Yankees make the wild card. Or the Red Sox win the division. You are what your record says you are. Ortiz is an unathletic player [in the sense of physique] who has a violent swing. Lowell has had injuries his whole career. Expecting a return to 2007 form is not likely for either player, due to age and attrition of skills.

Out of that entire list, only Beckett, IMO, projects as an improvement. The rest are the same or down years. Buchholz? When he gets his ERA below 5, we'll talk.

Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Bay, Drew, Ortiz, Beckett, Matsuzaka, Lester, Buchholz, Masterson and Papelbon? Maybe Bowden thrown in there for good measure...

Out of that entire list, only Beckett, IMO, projects as an improvement. The rest are the same or down years. Buchholz? When he gets his ERA below 5, we'll talk.

When I look up ages it's funny. I see this:

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rosters

 

Maybe it's not updated, but when I click on the teams it seems updated from what I can tell. The Red Sox are, as a team, .5 years older than Tampa, while the Yankees are .8 years older than the Sox, and 1.3 years older than Tampa, as a team. The Rays rank 14th, the Sox rank 17th and the Yankees rank 26th. Weird. I would have expected a huge gap between the 'old' Red Sox and the super young Rays. Weird.

Another example of knowledge without intelligence. They count the whole 40 man roster. Count the lineups, the everyday players. I'm too tired to do the pitching staff, so I'll do the lineups only.

 

Starting nine for Tampa.

 

Navarro: 24

Pena: 30

Iwamura: 29

Longoria: 23

Bartlett: 29

Crawford: 27

Upton: 24

Joyce: 24

Gomes: 28

 

Average: 26.4

 

Starting nine for Boston:

 

Varitek [assumption]: 36

Youkilis: 29

Pedrioa: 25

Lowrie: 24

Lowell: 34

Bay: 30

Ellsbury: 25

Drew: 33

Ortiz: 33

 

Average: 29.8

 

Starting nine for New York

 

Posada: 37

Teixeira: 28

Cano: 26

Jeter: 34

Arod: 33

Damon: 35

Swisher: 28

Nady: 30

Matsui: 34

 

Average: 31.67

 

There is a big difference here. A lot more than what you think. Not picking on you Example, but this is my issue with a lot of posters. Think. Don't just take a number and spout it without trying to make sense of it. The Yankees are significantly older and more brittle than the Rays. So are the Red Sox [although to a lesser degree than the Yankees].

I actually agree with you. Unless they get something nice in return Nady is a nice piece to have.

Finally some sense.

Sure Gom. Is this like when you were so objective about the way that VORP works (it gets exponentially harder to get VORP points, so the difference between one number and the next is actually 'many' numbers), or about the vast age difference between the Red Sox and the Rays, or the Red Sox and the Yankees?

The irony is that both the arguments that you mock are correct. VORP is not linear. It is exponential. So each point is harder to acquire than the point before. The vast difference in age is listed above. Can you say confused?

We all do our best to stay objective. Since all you do is s*** on your own team, and since nobody here actually cares to discuss the Yankees in depth, I suppose it is easy to come in and pretend to be the voice of reason, while your maniac cat shoots is absurd machine gun into space. TheKilo knows what's what. You're a good poster here, but you don't have access to some level of objectivity that nobody else can touch, or that very few can aspire to. This isn't your first time around the track, so nobody's fooled.

I don't s*** on my team. I s*** on the GM, and this off-season, he's done a great job. I'm not pretending to be the voice of reason, I AM one of the voices of reason. My objectivity is based on one thing really. My ability to disassociate my fandom, which is subjective, from my baseball acumen, which is objective. Am I perfect? Of course not. Only Jacko is. Just ask him. However, stop and think for a moment. That's all I ask.

 

Look, I'm on a few Yankee boards, and if any of you are on any of them, they're already planning the parade down the Canyon of Heroes. I try to put the breaks on there, but my fandom interferes with my objectivity. Here, you guys put me in a more objective state of mind due to our opposing fandoms.

 

Let me give you an example. I think expecting big things from Lowell, Ortiz, Posada, and Matsui is not a likely course of events. All four players are on the down side of their careers and coming off major injuries. I would say it would be a better than even bet to say that they will improve on 2008, but I wouldn't expect any of them to be the dominant players they were.

 

There are fans on both sides who expect their players to be superstars again. They may be..but I wouldn't count on it.

[RedSoxRooter]

This is a rationalization not a fact.

 

Fact is Boras would go to the Yanks one last time no matter what the Sox offered to see if they'd outbid the Sox.

 

I don't buy this whole "Tex didn't want to go to Boston" ******** either. You go to where the money is coming from. Boras lets any team snipe at the end of the bidding process - that's just his way of spinning it.

 

On that note, I hope Henry is pissed at Boras right now and doesn't sign Varitek simply out of spite. That way Manny can wind up in Washington and Tek wherever. Then I hope JD Drew's right shoulder explodes so that contract can be voided. f*** 'em all and f*** you to!