A Realistic View at the 2027 Red Sox Part I

[drewski6]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

Of course I wish our prospects lived up to the hype, but I would say it was the "hype" that bothers me. Them sucking did.

I never heard anyone say they expected Roman to be MVP in year one or two. Some might have said he will be a top MVP candidate someday, but I think you overstate how sure posters were on the success of the big 3 or 4, if you include Tolle.

Once again, you turn my question into a question to me. I answered it, anyway. Why not actually answer why the "hype" bothers you, because it clearly does.

Plenty of people were like Devers Shmevers , we have a shiny new toy, woop woop.  And hes cheap for ownership. Yay! I will love him until he hits a cold spell or it becomes time to pay him!  

Just retire the ole "nobody said" its dumb because your eyes arent everywhere.  And I promise you that no matter what it is, someone prob said it.

[mvp 78]

16 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Which nickname was more ill-fitting? "Roman Empire" or "Con Man?"

Durbinator

Tony Seagulls

KC and the Sunshine Bat

Abreau

Fatley

Curtis Meat

Tolle Diver

Gaspee

Tex

Guns

Marinara

Slamboa

Crotch

Burger

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Plenty of people were like Devers Shmevers , we have a shiny new toy, woop woop.  And hes cheap for ownership. Yay! I will love him until he hits a cold spell or it becomes time to pay him!  

Just retire the ole "nobody said" its dumb because your eyes arent everywhere.  And I promise you that no matter what it is, someone prob said it.

Vegas had Roman as like the 5th best odds for MVP. The "nobody said" gimmick is interesting to say the least when we expected him to lead the offense. 

[mvp 78]

11 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Adrian Beltre.

We were talking about AGON 1.0: Alex Gonzalez, not Adrian Gonzalez. 

[drewski6]

51 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Apparently, all in your mind.

Its not true.  Plenty of optimistic articles about last year referred to Roman as the star/centerpiece of the offense.

But you are right that the central issue isnt that Roman was "hyped".

The issue, and Ive said this often, is that we didnt get Bregman and Alonso.  There are players with 700m contracts, 600m contracts, 500m contracts, 400m contracts, 300m contracts, and 200m contracts.

We couldnt pony up 160m to get the AL home run leader?  We cheered when we saved Devers money.  We expressed happiness they didnt pay Alonso or Bregman.  Yay for shrewdness.

ANd we cant get out of third place or the first round of the playoffs.

The problem isnt the hype. The problem is the hype distracting you that Devers, Bregman, and Alonso - none of those are bad contracts and sure they may become bad down the road, but if you are never willing to sign a contract that might become bad, enjoy perpetual fourth place.

[drewski6]

2 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

We were talking about AGON 1.0: Alex Gonzalez, not Adrian Gonzalez. 

Oh, well thats different.

[drewski6]

7 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Vegas had Roman as like the 5th best odds for MVP. The "nobody said" gimmick is interesting to say the least when we expected him to lead the offense. 

In order to say nobody said w confidence, you would have had to have heard and memorized everything anyone has ever said.  And that feels off to me.  I dont think Moon is that autistic (kidding).  

[drewski6]

con man vs roman empire is interesting.  Tale of the tape:

In the red corner we have the con man, aka the repo man aka barry allen darsow late in his career after his deservedly hall of fame tag-team (Demolition) broke up, and he lengthened his career by changing his gimmick to a thief named repo man. 6'2, tough as nails, not particularly long/athletic. Little round in the middle.  I loved the repo man gimmick, personally.  The little vignettes were hilarious.  It was a good second act, but really that shtick kind of tops out at mid-card.

In the Blue Corner we have: The Roman Empire aka Roman Reigns aka Joe Anoa'i. 6'3 but way more cut, built, athletic.  Top star.  Carried the program for 3 years.  While had some rough passes due to fans thinking the script writers were overbooking him , he did eventually win over the fanbase.

I love the repo man but hes outclassed here.

 

[drewski6]

7 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

con man vs roman empire is interesting.  Tale of the tape:

In the red corner we have the con man, aka the repo man aka barry allen darsow late in his career after his deservedly hall of fame tag-team (Demolition) broke up, and he lengthened his career by changing his gimmick to a thief named repo man. 6'2, tough as nails, not particularly long/athletic. Little round in the middle.  I loved the repo man gimmick, personally.  The little vignettes were hilarious.  It was a good second act, but really that shtick kind of tops out at mid-card.

In the Blue Corner we have: The Roman Empire aka Roman Reigns aka Joe Anoa'i. 6'3 but way more cut, built, athletic.  Top star.  Carried the program for 3 years.  While had some rough passes due to fans thinking the script writers were overbooking him , he did eventually win over the fanbase.

I love the repo man but hes outclassed here.

 

maybe if the repo man had mr fuji , ax and kona crush with him but its not like roman doesnt have a posse himself that will involve if the other side tries to run interference.  

[moonslav59]

57 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Let me settle the hype argument.   The way Moon and Joe Brady are defining the term hype is different than how Old Red is defining it, and you are both right.

Moon and Joe Brady are more so defining it as marketing, and buzz generation which is inherently a good thing.  You want to build your brand and your stars and your pipeline.  A team wants buzz.  Good for mission-critical things like TV deals and ticket sales.

Old Red means irrational projections, and putting too many eggs in an unproven basket.  Which is inherently bad for the health of a ballclub.  Also, I say "ballclub" now

 

 

[mvp 78]

17 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

con man vs roman empire is interesting.  Tale of the tape:

In the red corner we have the con man, aka the repo man aka barry allen darsow late in his career after his deservedly hall of fame tag-team (Demolition) broke up, and he lengthened his career by changing his gimmick to a thief named repo man. 6'2, tough as nails, not particularly long/athletic. Little round in the middle.  I loved the repo man gimmick, personally.  The little vignettes were hilarious.  It was a good second act, but really that shtick kind of tops out at mid-card.

In the Blue Corner we have: The Roman Empire aka Roman Reigns aka Joe Anoa'i. 6'3 but way more cut, built, athletic.  Top star.  Carried the program for 3 years.  While had some rough passes due to fans thinking the script writers were overbooking him , he did eventually win over the fanbase.

I love the repo man but hes outclassed here.

You're forgetting that Darsow was Krusher Kruschev in JCP (Contreras with the Cubbies). I think the Demolition turn was when Contreras switched to 1B. Repo Man will be when Contreras will have to be a DH ('28 and beyond). 

[moonslav59]

Just now, moonslav59 said:

 

 

58 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Vegas had Roman as like the 5th best odds for MVP. The "nobody said" gimmick is interesting to say the least when we expected him to lead the offense. 

Players and prospects often fall way short of hopes, wishes and expectations.

This is baseball.

Players often exceed expectations.

This is baseball.

Whatever you view "hype" as defined, so what?

Is the issue that too many people "fell for the hype?"

The hype was unreasonable to begin with?

or

Too many of us are dumb for believing the hype?

Did we believe the hype hook-line and sinker, or did we just hope the met the hype?

Does it matter or should it matter so much to some that seem HYPER focused on showing how others were wrong?

The guy who calls every prospect "suspect" was right about the big three but never mentions Tolle. I wonder why? Now, see I'm focusing on showing someone was wrong. Whoop- dee- freaking-doo!

[drewski6]

10 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

 

Players and prospects often fall way short of hopes, wishes and expectations.

This is baseball.

Players often exceed expectations.

This is baseball.

Whatever you view "hype" as defined, so what?

Is the issue that too many people "fell for the hype?"

The hype was unreasonable to begin with?

or

Too many of us are dumb for believing the hype?

Did we believe the hype hook-line and sinker, or did we just hope the met the hype?

Does it matter or should it matter so much to some that seem HYPER focused on showing how others were wrong?

The guy who calls every prospect "suspect" was right about the big three but never mentions Tolle. I wonder why? Now, see I'm focusing on showing someone was wrong. Whoop- dee- freaking-doo!

The issue was some people telling us that we dont need any of Devers, Bregman and Alonso.  Roman hype was part of the reason for that, "I think the offense will be fine"

Its not the hype itself.  Its the high fiving Joe Brady over not getting bats, and then watching an offense noodlebat its way into hard to watch territory.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Regarding Roman, we all wanted to believe the hype -- and that includes from the Red Sox, national media coverage, and Team USA Manager Mark DeRosa: "Roman Anthony is special and the moment is never too big for him. Red Sox fans are gonna have a nice time with him for the next 15 years."

What we never wanted is a batting order that left him pitifully unprotected without enough established elite bats that pitchers had to stress about instead of focusing solely on a 22-year-old rookie.

[drewski6]

3 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Regarding Roman, we all wanted to believe the hype -- and that includes from the Red Sox, national media coverage, and Team USA Manager Mark DeRosa: "Roman Anthony is special and the moment is never too big for him. Red Sox fans are gonna have a nice time with him for the next 15 years."

What we never wanted is a batting order that left him pitifully unprotected without enough established elite bats that pitchers had to stress about instead of focusing solely on a 22-year-old rookie.

This guy always finds a way to cut through

[notin]

4 hours ago, Hugh2 said:

It's actually fairly common for a guy who is regarded as the #1 talent in a draft to be skipped #1 for financial reasons and happens much more often when that guy is a High Schooler.  But yeah, people look at rankings and get expectations and hype guys up. 

Well, it was far more prevalent before 2012 when MLB implemented the slotted bonuses.  There were still occasional players who had higher demands, notably Jay Groome who was also the top talent but fell down to, was it 12? for that reason…

[moonslav59]

2 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

The issue was some people telling us that we dont need any of Devers, Bregman and Alonso.  Roman hype was part of the reason for that, "I think the offense will be fine"

Its not the hype itself.  Its the high fiving Joe Brady over not getting bats, and then watching an offense noodlebat its way into hard to watch territory.

Yes, some of us expected Roman to take up some of the slack for losing Devers & Bregman.

Some laughed at the idea Willson taking up some of the slack.

Some of us hoped we got Alonso or ______ to further fill the gap in our offense.

Some expected Duran to bounce back and scoffed at the very idea of trading away "one of our top offensive weapons." Was there "too much Duran hype?" Where is all the talk on that and finger pointing at posters against trading Duran? (Note: some are the same posters now lobbing bombs at the ones thinking Roman might or should take up the slack.)

It's common for players to fall short of what we hoped and or expected. We all get projections wrong, and I'm as bad as anyone else doing that. I'm not calling anyone out more than myself, but I don't think anyone gets it right all that often.

 

[mvp 78]

9 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Regarding Roman, we all wanted to believe the hype -- and that includes from the Red Sox, national media coverage, and Team USA Manager Mark DeRosa: "Roman Anthony is special and the moment is never too big for him. Red Sox fans are gonna have a nice time with him for the next 15 years."

What we never wanted is a batting order that left him pitifully unprotected without enough established elite bats that pitchers had to stress about instead of focusing solely on a 22-year-old rookie.

If Roman doesn't get injured, he's probably good enough. The first part is the problem IMO.

[notin]

1 hour ago, drewski6 said:

Will Middlebrooks ame up like a useful version of Will Middlebrooks.  Then 2-3 years in , he forgot how to make contact.

Middlebrooks was a K machine through the minors with no concept of plate discipline.  The only thing he did right was come up at a time when the Sox minor leagues rarely produced any worthwhile hitters so it was easy to get excited over him…

[notin]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

Vegas had Roman as like the 5th best odds for MVP. The "nobody said" gimmick is interesting to say the least when we expected him to lead the offense. 

Vegas odds are not determined solely by possible outcomes, but also by the amount of bets.  For decades, the Cubs were always among their Wirld Series favorites just because Cubs’ fans placed ridiculous numbers of bets on the streak ending…

[mvp 78]

5 minutes ago, notin said:

Middlebrooks was a K machine through the minors with no concept of plate discipline.  The only thing he did right was come up at a time when the Sox minor leagues rarely produced any worthwhile hitters so it was easy to get excited over him…

His k rate is nothing compared to how guys k now though. He'd was just a decade ahead of his time. His zone contact % wasn't great, but it was better than Napoli and Salty's in '13. The problem is that he had the swing and miss, but his power fell off a cliff and he stopped being able to hit velocity. 

[mvp 78]

9 minutes ago, notin said:

Vegas odds are not determined solely by possible outcomes, but also by the amount of bets.  For decades, the Cubs were always among their Wirld Series favorites just because Cubs’ fans placed ridiculous numbers of bets on the streak ending…

Which means that lots of people believed that Roman had a shot at MVP, but it was hush hush. 

[notin]

58 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Which means that lots of people believed that Roman had a shot at MVP, but it was hush hush. 

Or a lot of Sox fans have gambling problems…

[moonslav59]

11 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Regarding Roman, we all wanted to believe the hype -- and that includes from the Red Sox, national media coverage, and Team USA Manager Mark DeRosa: "Roman Anthony is special and the moment is never too big for him. Red Sox fans are gonna have a nice time with him for the next 15 years."

What we never wanted is a batting order that left him pitifully unprotected without enough established elite bats that pitchers had to stress about instead of focusing solely on a 22-year-old rookie.

There was certainly a ton of hype on Roman, and it was over a longer time than KC and Mayer. I totally understand why, too.

I still think he may get close to MVP consideration someday, but I also know he may never hit over .800 again.

Maybe I'm missing what this is all about, but I'm not getting the big stink about hype occuring and also how many hyped players fall short or way short, especially early in their careers.

[notin]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

His k rate is nothing compared to how guys k now though. He'd was just a decade ahead of his time. His zone contact % wasn't great, but it was better than Napoli and Salty's in '13. The problem is that he had the swing and miss, but his power fell off a cliff and he stopped being able to hit velocity. 

He fell off dramatically after a decent first year, and wound up fetching a34 yo career backup catcher in a trade that ended up being far more equal than it should have been…

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, notin said:

Or a lot of Sox fans have gambling problems…

Realistic View at the 2027 Red Sox presented by DraftKings! 

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

If Roman doesn't get injured, he's probably good enough. The first part is the problem IMO.

I agree. I think if he's 100% healthy for 150 games, he'll bat over .800 easily and maybe .850 or one day .900+. He may never be the power hitter some thought he'd be, but .850 is good enough.

I worry about the injury he had and how it was obvious the team felt he should be cured by such and such date, but he wasn't. Is it something about Roman, or his pain threshold or mental aspect, or was there really an underlying issue that was missed by our crack-med unit? (Take the word "crack" either way.)

[moonslav59]

6 minutes ago, notin said:

Or a lot of Sox fans have gambling problems…

I bet they don't.

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, notin said:

He fell off dramatically after a decent first year, and wound up fetching a34 yo career backup catcher in a trade that ended up being far more equal than it should have been…

He's a very weird case and I wish Statcast was around for his early run so we had more visibility into what went wrong. 

[notin]

Just now, moonslav59 said:

I bet they don't.

You’re on!!

Early score - notin 2 moonslav 0