Red Sox 2025 Season Review/Offseason Preview Thread

[mvp 78]

 

[mvp 78]

3 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

MVP and others were not, and now are trying to rewrite history to say we did well from 2020-2024.

That's not what anyone said. 

[moonslav59]

4 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

That's not what anyone said. 

You were saying we were good enough to not call it a cliff.

We finished in last place 3 of 4 years. Maybe I was hyperbolic.

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

We were not competitive, and that's why we needed deadline moves.

Why are you trying to say we were?

Rather than going back in time and finding quotes from YOU stating how you wanted them to spend because you believed they had a chance at the playoffs. 

22: 51-52 on 7-31 (the "wait until all these starting pitchers come back from injury" year)

23: 56-50 on 7-31

24: 57-51 on 7-31

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

You were saying we were good enough to not call it a cliff.

We finished in last place 3 of 4 years. Maybe I was hyperbolic.

I said they could have not had "a cliff" if they made better FA acquisitions and chose to spend better in '22 and '23. In '22, they still had the '21 ALCS squad and went over the CBT. May as well have spent and additional 20M and made that team a lot better! '23 was a decent team for a while until it fell apart after the deadline when they didn't add. 

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

Rather than going back in time and finding quotes from YOU stating how you wanted them to spend because you believed they had a chance at the playoffs. 

22: 51-52 on 7-31 (the "wait until all these starting pitchers come back from injury" year)

23: 56-50 on 7-31

24: 57-51 on 7-31

Of course I wanted and said many times they should and could spend. How does that change anything?

I knew JH would continue his cycle approach. I never expected this long of a cycle.

[moonslav59]

Just now, mvp 78 said:

I said they could have not had "a cliff" if they made better FA acquisitions and chose to spend better in '22 and '23. In '22, they still had the '21 ALCS squad and went over the CBT. May as well have spent and additional 20M and made that team a lot better! '23 was a decent team for a while until it fell apart after the deadline when they didn't add. 

I am not disagreeing that we could have been better.

I'm saying I expected JH to lay off spending for a period and that we'd suck when he did lay off spending.

How was I wrong?

I've been wrong on a ton of things and will admit it when I am and admitted it when  I was.

I don't think I was wrong on projecting JH would stop spending when the farm stopped infusing enough help where too much spending would be needed. I thought it would be too hard for a winning team, with low darft pick, to rebuild the farm quickly.

It took a long time for the farm to get us to that point.

I saw 2024 as a chance to spend big to get us close. I saw 2025 a certain window open point, and I do think JH spent accordingly, but Buehler fizzled and we dumped Devers.

I do think the cliff was undeniable from 2022-2024, precisely because we did not invest in getting ut to high competitiveness and that was reflected in nonaction at those deadlines, too.

You ae correct in the reasons we did not compete. My point is I predicted there would be a point where JH would not spend what was needed. Was I wrong on that?

[a700hitter]

1 hour ago, Larry Cook said:

Very true!  And yet when desperate Dave left, our farm system was ranked dead last! 

The charge against Dave that he "mortgaged the future" is inaccurate and unjustified.  The subjective ranking of the farm system as "last" when he left was probably also not justified since he left us with Bello, Duran, Rafaela, Houck, Casas and Crawford.  That's not an empty farm.

Success follows Dave for a reason.  Failure was experienced by Bloom, because he was a terrible GM.

[mvp 78]

14 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I do think the cliff was undeniable from 2022-2024, precisely because we did not invest in getting ut to high competitiveness and that was reflected in nonaction at those deadlines, too.

You ae correct in the reasons we did not compete. My point is I predicted there would be a point where JH would not spend what was needed. Was I wrong on that?

Are we still in a cliff then because Henry is choosing not to spend and sold off Devers for pennies on the dollar? 

They won 4 titles, spent a lot of money over that time and Henry got tired of spending. That was the cliff? 

 

[drewski6]

37 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

We are both stuck to our positions.

I was a cliffdweller. MVP and others were not, and now are trying to rewrite history to say we did well from 2020-2024. All the bitching and complaining was misplaced, as we were really highly competitive on paper but just had bad luck.

Look, we all know we could have been competitive all along, but some knew JH would not spend as highly as needed from the Betts trade until the farm provided enough filler pieces to make moderate spending enough to get us to "over the cliff."

you cant dwell in a cliff, it isnt a cave

can you meet me at "I was a cliffhanger, mvp and others were not...."

[drewski6]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Are we still in a cliff then because Henry is choosing not to spend and sold off Devers for pennies on the dollar? 

They won 4 titles, spent a lot of money over that time and Henry got tired of spending. That was the cliff? 

 

now , you! you cannot be in a cliff. Do we not know what a cliff is?  It is not a cave. It is not a den.  It is the side of a mountain or hill with a steep decline.  Even if you are inside of a mountain that has a cliff on the side of it, you are not in a cliff.

The only way to be in a cliff is if you got swallowed by the big red dog or something. But I think hes nice.

[drewski6]

hope hes nice, he is big

[drewski6]

32 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Rather than going back in time and finding quotes from YOU stating how you wanted them to spend because you believed they had a chance at the playoffs. 

22: 51-52 on 7-31 (the "wait until all these starting pitchers come back from injury" year)

23: 56-50 on 7-31

24: 57-51 on 7-31

are you familiar with the song 1999 by Charli xcx and troye sivan

[mvp 78]

7 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

you cant dwell in a cliff, it isnt a cave

can you meet me at "I was a cliffhanger, mvp and others were not...."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff_dwelling

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

are you familiar with the song 1999 by Charli xcx and troye sivan

Baby Cold Stove Tonight? 

[drewski6]

32 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

I said they could have not had "a cliff" if they made better FA acquisitions and chose to spend better in '22 and '23. In '22, they still had the '21 ALCS squad and went over the CBT. May as well have spent and additional 20M and made that team a lot better! '23 was a decent team for a while until it fell apart after the deadline when they didn't add. 

you guys are talking right past each other. Hes saying a financial cliff, you are talking about a talent/results cliff

We certainly were up against a financial cliff (had to move money) , we were not up against a talent cliff (we could have shed money and still been good)

There were other ways to save money than by giving away betts for verdublow and eating half of prices contract to facilitate.  We were just lazy and trading betts was easy and I was on another forum at the time with joebrady and tedyazmookiefldg%isonlythingthatmatters and pumpsie.  And they were all gobbling up misinformation.  Like Betts didnt want to be here or we had to move betts.

We needed to move money (that was the cliff) , we could have still been good (keep betts, move others) and anyone who thinks that betts didnt want to be here or was gonna be gone anyway or we couldnt find a way to shed money in  other areas is incorrect.

Trading betts was a choice, the wrong one,  and thats what ruined the team.  Getting Verdublow back didnt help. Cuz he was just lousy enough where it wasnt obvious how lousy he was , so he held the job down (again lazy GM) when really we woulda been better off if Verdugo got injured in spring training and never returned, because at least then we would be forced to get somebody else.  Like a 100% healthy Casas.  Still dont want him.  

[drewski6]

6 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff_dwelling

im gonna need to get back to you on whether i want to dig in my heels on this one or concede.

[moonslav59]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Are we still in a cliff then because Henry is choosing not to spend and sold off Devers for pennies on the dollar? 

They won 4 titles, spent a lot of money over that time and Henry got tired of spending. That was the cliff? 

 

I've answered this.

I said JH spent enough for 2025, but Buehler was a bust and devers was dumped. If just one of those did not happen, we'd have been a top 3-4 team.

I've explained what the feeling was back in 2018. I'm fine with anyone disagreeing, but why keep asking the same questions?

We had a lot of high salaries for several years to come.

We had some great young talent nearing big pay days.

We had an owner who had a history of spending in cycles. (Even 2013 was a down spending year.)

Our farm was wrongly perceived as being bad. (I never felt DD "emptied the farm," but I did not think we'd et as many decent players as we ended up getting from it.)

That is why I and some others expected a steep drop off at some point. I did not think it would be so soon, but one Betts and price were traded, it became clear it would be sooner not later.

We were still a top 3 spending team in 2021, but the roster was already much weaker than 2018-2019's. 2020's roster was hurt by injuries, so I'm okay saying that was not really a cliff, but rather an unfortunate season. 2021 was a high spending budget, but not much new spending. The Schwarber trade was the last major effort to go for it.

IN hindsight, the "cliff" was 2022-2024. Call it something else, if you want, but there waqas a clear delineation between 2021> 2022 and even more to 2023 & 2024. We refused to add anyone in those years, exceptMasa and Story, and they were far from filling the shoes of players who left.

We saw a ton of talent leave and little come in. I fault the lack of spending and making farm building the top priority for this rebuild period. I call it the cliff I projected happening. You don't. I've got nothing more to add. I think I explained my position enough to not need any more elaboration. If you disagree, fine.

This has been hashed and rehashed far too much, already.

[moonslav59]

17 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

you cant dwell in a cliff, it isnt a cave

can you meet me at "I was a cliffhanger, mvp and others were not...."

It's like those houses built into cliffsides. Mine has a nice ocean view.

[drewski6]

3 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I've answered this.

I said JH spent enough for 2025, but Buehler was a bust and devers was dumped. If just one of those did not happen, we'd have been a top 3-4 team.

I've explained what the feeling was back in 2018. I'm fine with anyone disagreeing, but why keep asking the same questions?

We had a lot of high salaries for several years to come.

We had some great young talent nearing big pay days.

We had an owner who had a history of spending in cycles. (Even 2013 was a down spending year.)

Our farm was wrongly perceived as being bad. (I never felt DD "emptied the farm," but I did not think we'd et as many decent players as we ended up getting from it.)

That is why I and some others expected a steep drop off at some point. I did not think it would be so soon, but one Betts and price were traded, it became clear it would be sooner not later.

We were still a top 3 spending team in 2021, but the roster was already much weaker than 2018-2019's. 2020's roster was hurt by injuries, so I'm okay saying that was not really a cliff, but rather an unfortunate season. 2021 was a high spending budget, but not much new spending. The Schwarber trade was the last major effort to go for it.

IN hindsight, the "cliff" was 2022-2024. Call it something else, if you want, but there waqas a clear delineation between 2021> 2022 and even more to 2023 & 2024. We refused to add anyone in those years, exceptMasa and Story, and they were far from filling the shoes of players who left.

We saw a ton of talent leave and little come in. I fault the lack of spending and making farm building the top priority for this rebuild period. I call it the cliff I projected happening. You don't. I've got nothing more to add. I think I explained my position enough to not need any more elaboration. If you disagree, fine.

This has been hashed and rehashed far too much, already.

see you lost me.  The cliff was what led to trading betts, not what happened after.  We were toast.  Although, I guess the lack of adding after could be an aftermath effect of being over a finacial cliff. But that didnt matter.  We were already toast.  Because verdublow was fools gold (i called it immediately) and there was no coming back from trading betts.

Everyone knew that we were gonna shed some money.  That doesnt necessary mean plummet payroll. We already had #1 payroll and dudes needing raises. So even if kept the payroll same (or even went up a bit) there was a financial matter to deal with.  We werent going to be #1 in payroll and THEN splash money around like a team thats perennially 20th in payroll but trying to change their image. Just wasnt going to happen. SO there was financial moves that were going to be made.

And everyone and I bet here too, thought it was like inevitable and a must to trade betts. ANd it wasnt.  And i heard it all before. Joe Brady loved the trade because when you break down talent for every dollar spent , he would prefer verdublow over betts.  And all those arguments we hear now about why we should avoid expensive players were all then there too.

There was never ever ever a reason to trade betts and we're still paying the price for THAT now (not Dave's move but htat move) . We have not recovered from trading Betts.

[drewski6]

Even if we replaced betts salary, even if we balloooned payroll, we traded a hall of famer entering his prime and you cant spend your way out of that mistake.

[drewski6]

10 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It's like those houses built into cliffsides. Mine has a nice ocean view.

but are you technically in a cliff if you are in a dwelling built into a cliff? I honestly dont know which is why i told mvp i would give him an ill get back to you

[moonslav59]

2 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

see you lost me.  The cliff was what led to trading betts, not what happened after.  We were toast.  Although, I guess the lack of adding after could be an aftermath effect of being over a finacial cliff. But that didnt matter.  We were already toast.  Because verdublow was fools gold (i called it immediately) and there was no coming back from trading betts.

Everyone knew that we were gonna shed some money.  That doesnt necessary mean plummet payroll. We already had #1 payroll and dudes needing raises. So even if kept the payroll same (or even went up a bit) there was a financial matter to deal with.  We werent going to be #1 in payroll and THEN splash money around like a team thats perennially 20th in payroll but trying to change their image. Just wasnt going to happen. SO there was financial moves that were going to be made.

And everyone and I bet here too, thought it was like inevitable and a must to trade betts. ANd it wasnt.  And i heard it all before. Joe Brady loved the trade because when you break down talent for every dollar spent , he would prefer verdublow over betts.  And all those arguments we hear now about why we should avoid expensive players were all then there too.

There was never ever ever a reason to trade betts and we're still paying the price for THAT now (not Dave's move but htat move) . We have not recovered from trading Betts.

I'm defending anything. We did not have to do it, but we did.

I'm not saying anything more. I cannot make my position any clearer.

It happened. it didn't need to, but it was predictable.

[moonslav59]

2 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

but are you technically in a cliff if you are in a dwelling built into a cliff? I honestly dont know which is why i told mvp i would give him an ill get back to you

[drewski6]

13 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I'm defending anything. We did not have to do it, but we did.

I'm not saying anything more. I cannot make my position any clearer.

It happened. it didn't need to, but it was predictable.

needing to move money was predictable.  we knew there would have to be some wheeling and dealing.  the notion that the best way to do that was trading betts started gaining steam. And i started getting nervous.  I disagree "how" we did it was predictable, but some did present it as a good move (trade betts to deal with the cliff). I knew it was a terrrrrrrible decision.  I always thought, up until the trade, that we wouldnt actually do it.

Then we did it and I flipped out.

Joe Brady told me it was the best trade ever made because if Verdugo is a 3 WAR player on a 1m deal thats 3WAR/1mil value, and had we gave betts 27m, he never would have been a 81 WAR/yr player (27*3) so the ratio of WAR /mil spent is better with verdugo and for this reason OMG did we ever just fleece the dodgers.

Joe got the trade and the era that he wanted.  EVerything from a value perspective.  4 last place finishes later and hes still on here talking down to people telling us that we dont understand how to divide WAR/dollars when its him that doesnt realize that chasing value only gets you so far and sure it can set you up real nice, but to win it all, eventually you need talent and a team of 26 2WAR players all making min wage loses to a team of 26 4 WAR players all making 10m even though the first team is better from a WAR/$$ spent standpoint.

But I dont wanna be unfair, Joe did recently say something like hes willing to overpay when we are close if its gonna put us over a hump, and thats when i cooled on taking cheap shots at joe (for now)

[drewski6]

14 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

wow!

[mvp 78]

35 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

you guys are talking right past each other. Hes saying a financial cliff, you are talking about a talent/results cliff

He's saying a results cliff? 

[mvp 78]

31 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I've answered this.

I said JH spent enough for 2025, but Buehler was a bust and devers was dumped. If just one of those did not happen, we'd have been a top 3-4 team.

I've explained what the feeling was back in 2018. I'm fine with anyone disagreeing, but why keep asking the same questions?

We had a lot of high salaries for several years to come.

We had some great young talent nearing big pay days.

We had an owner who had a history of spending in cycles. (Even 2013 was a down spending year.)

Our farm was wrongly perceived as being bad. (I never felt DD "emptied the farm," but I did not think we'd et as many decent players as we ended up getting from it.)

That is why I and some others expected a steep drop off at some point. I did not think it would be so soon, but one Betts and price were traded, it became clear it would be sooner not later.

We were still a top 3 spending team in 2021, but the roster was already much weaker than 2018-2019's. 2020's roster was hurt by injuries, so I'm okay saying that was not really a cliff, but rather an unfortunate season. 2021 was a high spending budget, but not much new spending. The Schwarber trade was the last major effort to go for it.

IN hindsight, the "cliff" was 2022-2024. Call it something else, if you want, but there waqas a clear delineation between 2021> 2022 and even more to 2023 & 2024. We refused to add anyone in those years, exceptMasa and Story, and they were far from filling the shoes of players who left.

We saw a ton of talent leave and little come in. I fault the lack of spending and making farm building the top priority for this rebuild period. I call it the cliff I projected happening. You don't. I've got nothing more to add. I think I explained my position enough to not need any more elaboration. If you disagree, fine.

This has been hashed and rehashed far too much, already.

We're now in post-cliff era and firmly in cycles-era moon. It's like Metallica after Master of Puppets. 😔

[mvp 78]

7 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

needing to move money was predictable.  we knew there would have to be some wheeling and dealing.  the notion that the best way to do that was trading betts started gaining steam. And i started getting nervous.  I disagree "how" we did it was predictable, but some did present it as a good move (trade betts to deal with the cliff). I knew it was a terrrrrrrible decision.  I always thought, up until the trade, that we wouldnt actually do it.

Then we did it and I flipped out.

Joe Brady told me it was the best trade ever made because...

I've soured on the ownership group ever since that day. I used to be the nicest and sweetest poster! 😇

[drewski6]

10 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

We're now in post-cliff era and firmly in cycles-era moon. It's like Metallica after Master of Puppets. 😔

I liked load.

Wheres your crown, king nothing?