Taking the Cheap Way Hardly Ever Works

[moonslav59]

4 hours ago, Hitch said:

The problem with this is, that barring a plague outbreak, Cora is never ever playing Yoshi in the field. And even when it seemed the opportune time to play him as the DH last year, he often didn't get played then either. 

So if we're signing Bregman (and surely as a 3rd baseman not 2nd), it would mean trading one of Casas or Yoshi, with one being eminently more tradeable than the other. 

I'm not really for playing Yoshi in the field. I'd rather bench him or trade him for whatever we can get. I think Cora mentioned that the 2024 injury was the main reason he did not play in LF, and that he was open to playing him there, once cured. (I could be wrong.)

Again, Bregman was not who I wanted, but he would fix 2 problems, maybe 3, if Devers is better at 1B D than Casas (Casas to DH.) If the only problem he creates benching an $18M DH, then it may still be the best FA choice remaining.

We aren't signing Scott or Santander. Profar and Santander creates an OF squeeze and may force a Rafaela and or Abreu trade. Hoffman would be nice, but none of these other guys move the needle like Bregman would, IMO.

To me, this really highlights the disfunction of our FO and ownership group. Even if we end up signing Bregman, it looks like a knee-jerk reaction based on no pre-planning and a need to just "do something" that helps.

From the "full throttle" statement, last winter to this by Kennedy: "Even if it takes us over the CBT, our priority is 90-95 wins and winning the ...division for multiple years." We are not a 90 win team, unless nearly everything goes right and injuries are very low. We are over $30M under the tax line with square pegs left to sign and round holes to fill.

[notin]

5 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

That would make us LESS THAN mediocre. We should be playing meaningful baseball nearly every September, but we haven't been. I'd question anyone claiming to be an ardent fan who is satisfied with the dung heap Henry is putting out there for the last several years. I know I am not part of those who sit and smile drooling at the bums that have made up our team for the last several years.

They’ve been mediocre the last few years.  Bloom’s deadline indecisiveness tanked two seasons.  Breslow was at least a buyer at the deadline, but a lot of things fell apart…

[FredLynn]

3 minutes ago, notin said:

They’ve been mediocre the last few years.  Bloom’s deadline indecisiveness tanked two seasons.  Breslow was at least a buyer at the deadline, but a lot of things fell apart…

You know, I could almost deal with the mediocrity IF the ownership demonstrated some evidence that they were trying to compete as a large market team. When was the last time they signed a high priced talented FA?

[notin]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

I'm not really for playing Yoshi in the field. I'd rather bench him or trade him for whatever we can get. I think Cora mentioned that the 2024 injury was the main reason he did not play in LF, and that he was open to playing him there, once cured. (I could be wrong.)

Again, Bregman was not who I wanted, but he would fix 2 problems, maybe 3, if Devers is better at 1B D than Casas (Casas to DH.) If the only problem he creates benching an $18M DH, then it may still be the best FA choice remaining.

We aren't signing Scott or Santander. Profar and Santander creates an OF squeeze and may force a Rafaela and or Abreu trade. Hoffman would be nice, but none of these other guys move the needle like Bregman would, IMO.

To me, this really highlights the disfunction of our FO and ownership group. Even if we end up signing Bregman, it looks like a knee-jerk reaction based on no pre-planning and a need to just "do something" that helps.

From the "full throttle" statement, last winter to this by Kennedy: "Even if it takes us over the CBT, our priority is 90-95 wins and winning the ...division for multiple years." We are not a 90 win team, unless nearly everything goes right and injuries are very low. We are over $30M under the tax line with square pegs left to sign and round holes to fill.

Yeah I’m not sure who people want to spend on right now.

Bullpen arms like Hoffman, Yates, Finnegan and Estevez do make sense.  The catching market is bleak, but maybe Elias Diaz?

Beyond that?  Not sure.  Bregman if he is playing 3b.  I’m ok with that.  Santander? Pass.  His deal will outlive his usefulness.  I like Profar but I get passing.  They reportedly looked into Grichuk, hopefully as a weak side platoon with Abreu. That makes sense.  I like Ramon Laureano better for that role, but Grichuk’s not bad.  It does seem to me the easiest OF solution is Anthony in LF, Duran in CF, Abreu/Rafaela in RF.

As of today, 30 of the MLBTR top 50 free agents remain unsigned.  There are players out there…

[FredLynn]

7 minutes ago, notin said:

Well you said billionaire owner puts a cheap product on the field, and thats Ricketts.  I mean, the team has only won the World Series once since Teddy Roosevelt was president and the country only had 46 states.  But folks flock to that park all the same…

Yup

the lemmings still come to the park, though I believe attendance has been dropping a bit. Not enough, but a trickle. Let’s hope the fans get the message and STAY HOME!

[notin]

Just now, FredLynn said:

Yup

the lemmings still come to the park, though I believe attendance has been dropping a bit. Not enough, but a trickle. Let’s hope the fans get the message and STAY HOME!

My dad took me to Fenway to see some bad Red Sox teams.  Maybe we should have just stayed home.  Sure there was the familial bonding crap, but ultimately we were supporting a bad team!! The shame!

[FredLynn]

9 minutes ago, notin said:

My dad took me to Fenway to see some bad Red Sox teams.  Maybe we should have just stayed home.  Sure there was the familial bonding crap, but ultimately we were supporting a bad team!! The shame!

Ummm….there are other places where you could have done the family bonding thing you know. When folks support a crap teams owners by showing up at the park there’s no incentive for them to make the team better by spending money. It’s only when fans stay home or show up to boo the product on the field that the owners might be inclined to spend to improve the team. 
I’ll be staying home.

You should too.

[notin]

17 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Ummm….there are other places where you could have done the family bonding thing you know. When folks support a crap teams owners by showing up at the park there’s no incentive for them to make the team better by spending money. It’s only when fans stay home or show up to boo the product on the field that the owners might be inclined to spend to improve the team. 
I’ll be staying home.

You should too.

Don’t you live in San Francisco? Real big commitment from you there…

[notin]

1 hour ago, FredLynn said:

You know, I could almost deal with the mediocrity IF the ownership demonstrated some evidence that they were trying to compete as a large market team. When was the last time they signed a high priced talented FA?

Is $18mill “high priced”?

[FredLynn]

2 hours ago, notin said:

Don’t you live in San Francisco? Real big commitment from you there…

North of SF. But I visit my family in MA regularly and sometimes attend games.

No more

Does it matter to you whether or not the team contends for a playoff spot with regularity?

[FredLynn]

1 hour ago, notin said:

Is $18mill “high priced”?

How much is Burnes getting?

How about Fried….or Hernandez?

[moonslav59]

15 minutes ago, notin said:

Yeah I’m not sure who people want to spend on right now.

Bullpen arms like Hoffman, Yates, Finnegan and Estevez do make sense.  The catching market is bleak, but maybe Elias Diaz?

Beyond that?  Not sure.  Bregman if he is playing 3b.  I’m ok with that.  Santander? Pass.  His deal will outlive his usefulness.  I like Profar but I get passing.  They reportedly looked into Grichuk, hopefully as a weak side platoon with Abreu. That makes sense.  I like Ramon Laureano better for that role, but Grichuk’s not bad.  It does seem to me the easiest OF solution is Anthony in LF, Duran in CF, Abreu/Rafaela in RF.

As of today, 30 of the MLBTR top 50 free agents remain unsigned.  There are players out there…

Very few of those 30 look like fits, although plenty of pen arms are there.

When we look at the context of Kennedy's 90-95 win and the tax line statement, all the best fits are off the board. While I agree on your Santander comment, signing one of the best FAs almost always includes paying beyond projected usefulness and overpaying in AAV, too. You just have to bite the bullet.

Tradses mean giving away possible future assets and are fine, but not too many, at the same time.

[moonslav59]

Our largest new FA signings since Price in 2016 and JD in 2018 are...

I'd say Story and Yoshida are lower range major signings, and it's just 2 of them in 7 years.

3+ Years:

$23.3 x 6 Story '22

$18M x 5 Yoshida '23 (not counting posting fee)

 

2 Years: Maybe 2 significant and 2 near significant, in terms of money spent.

$19.25M x 2 Giolito '24

$16M x 2 Jansen '23

$9.125M x 2 Sandoval '25

$8.75M x 2 Martin '23

$7M x 2 Kiki '21 (extended for $10M/1 '23)

$5M x 2 Hendriks '24

$4M x 2 Diekman '22

 

1 Year

$21.05M Buehler '25

$10.25M Chapman '25

$10M Kluber '23, Paxton '22,  Richards '21

$7M Duvall '23 & Wacha '22

$6.25M Pearce '19

$6M Martin '20

$5M Martin '21 & Hill '22

[Randy Red Sox]

23 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I'd be fine with Bregman as our 3Bman, only.

I do not think he is the right guy to "pick and see through on signing," but at this point, he's the best of the rest.

He'd make us better in 2 significant ways: RHB and 3B defense.

Bregman is just another of the long list of FA'S the Sox "have shown interest in" but they haven't signed any so don't hold your breath on Bregman

[Randy Red Sox]

6 hours ago, notin said:

They’ve been mediocre the last few years.  Bloom’s deadline indecisiveness tanked two seasons.  Breslow was at least a buyer at the deadline, but a lot of things fell apart…

Breslow has actually done a decent job given that John Henry is still clutching his wallet as if it is his last dollar.  Man the guy has become so cheap that he looks over the top of his glasses to keep them from wearing out.

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, Randy Red Sox said:

Bregman is just another of the long list of FA'S the Sox "have shown interest in" but they haven't signed any so don't hold your breath on Bregman

I'm not.

The only reason for having any hope we do signing him is that he is the only real major guy left, next to maybe Scott. I have no expectation we signed either of these two.

The guys I liked are all gone. Some seemed intent on signing with a team and nobody else, Like Burnes and Teoscar, so it's hard to get pissed on losing out on them. Others got so grossly overpaid, I can at least understand why we didn't go higher. A few I thought were worth the overpay and maybe we should have bid more than what they signed for, but I'm not sure if that would have been enough.

I was not high on Kikuchi, but $63M/3 looks pretty good, to me.

$218M/8 Fried was a close call on going to $220M/8 or more.

$60M/3 Walker???  (Would have to trade Casas or DH him.)

$75M/3 Nate and Manaea is borderline, but I'm fine with missing out here.

All the others were too overpaid for me or bound to certain teams. I suppose I could think there isn't too much to get so upset about. Fried or Kikuchi?

So, what's left?

Bregman or Scott?

Alonso (trade Casas?)

Give Santander 5 years?

Flaherty?

I'm not thrilled with any choices left.

More likely we sign Estevez and Grichuk.

[moonslav59]

16 minutes ago, Randy Red Sox said:

Breslow has actually done a decent job given that John Henry is still clutching his wallet as if it is his last dollar.  Man the guy has become so cheap that he looks over the top of his glasses to keep them from wearing out.

I don't disagree, but are we sure JH would have nixed a higher bid on every FA that has signed, already?

He said "No" to $65M/3 for Kikuchi and $220M/8 for Fried?

It looks like Kennedy was either lying when he said the tax line was not a priority or JH stabbed him and Brez in the backs by saying no to every ask.

[jdc69]

I'm not sure I want Bregman or any of these high priced, long term players, especially the long term part. Its most likely they aren't going to be as good as they were and it's not going to get better. If we're going to pay all that money, they need to be at their prime. We should have got Teoscar or resigned O'Neill and just focus on pitching.

[moonslav59]

43 minutes ago, jdc69 said:

I'm not sure I want Bregman or any of these high priced, long term players, especially the long term part. Its most likely they aren't going to be as good as they were and it's not going to get better. If we're going to pay all that money, they need to be at their prime. We should have got Teoscar or resigned O'Neill and just focus on pitching.

Teoscar took less to play in LA, where he wanted to play. He's 32- not in prime.

O'Neill got $50M/3 and had only one season with 390+ PAs, before 2024. He's 29.

I suggested Kikuchi at age 27 (28 in 2025.)

[harmony]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

Teoscar took less to play in LA, where he wanted to play. He's 32- not in prime.

O'Neill got $50M/3 and had only one season with 390+ PAs, before 2024. He's 29.

I suggested Kikuchi at age 27 (28 in 2025.)

???

Yusei Kikuchi turns 34 years old next June:

https://www.mlb.com/player/yusei-kikuchi-579328

[Randy Red Sox]

2 minutes ago, harmony said:

???

Yusei Kikuchi turns 34 years old next June:

https://www.mlb.com/player/yusei-kikuchi-579328

yeah i thought he was way over 27 myself.  there is ALWAYS a reason the Sox didn't sign a top FA and Im sure it was never because Henry nixed them all--wink, wink

[jdc69]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

Teoscar took less to play in LA, where he wanted to play. He's 32- not in prime.

O'Neill got $50M/3 and had only one season with 390+ PAs, before 2024. He's 29.

I suggested Kikuchi at age 27 (28 in 2025.)

Are there two Kikuchis because I looked him up and he's 33 and also he got signed by Dodgers. Yeah O'Neill does seem to have a history of injuries but at this point it would be nice to have at least one power RHB. Of course it doesn't matter now. I think we need a talented RHB to feel that we had a successful offseason.

[harmony]

1 minute ago, jdc69 said:

Are there two Kikuchis because I looked him up and he's 33 and also he got signed by Dodgers. Yeah O'Neill does seem to have a history of injuries but at this point it would be nice to have at least one power RHB. Of course it doesn't matter now. I think we need a talented RHB to feel that we had a successful offseason.

The Los Angeles Angels signed Yusei Kikuchi to a three-year contract through the left-hander's age 36 season.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2024/11/angels-to-sign-yusei-kikuchi.html

[notin]

8 hours ago, FredLynn said:

North of SF. But I visit my family in MA regularly and sometimes attend games.

No more

Does it matter to you whether or not the team contends for a playoff spot with regularity?

Of course I want them to compete regularly, which is why I was annoyed with Bloom for white flagging two seasons when they were just a couple games out.

I also understand that you can compete for a postseason spot and still miss out on the postseason.  

[Randy Red Sox]

7 hours ago, notin said:

Of course I want them to compete regularly, which is why I was annoyed with Bloom for white flagging two seasons when they were just a couple games out.

I also understand that you can compete for a postseason spot and still miss out on the postseason.  

Henry has promised us on a leastt 2-3 occasions that his goal was to compete for a WORLD SERIES EVERY YEAR. What a joke.

[mvp 78]

19 hours ago, notin said:

Yeah I’m not sure who people want to spend on right now.

Bullpen arms like Hoffman, Yates, Finnegan and Estevez do make sense.  The catching market is bleak, but maybe Elias Diaz?

Beyond that?  Not sure.  Bregman if he is playing 3b.  I’m ok with that.  Santander? Pass.  His deal will outlive his usefulness.  I like Profar but I get passing.  They reportedly looked into Grichuk, hopefully as a weak side platoon with Abreu. That makes sense.  I like Ramon Laureano better for that role, but Grichuk’s not bad.  It does seem to me the easiest OF solution is Anthony in LF, Duran in CF, Abreu/Rafaela in RF.

As of today, 30 of the MLBTR top 50 free agents remain unsigned.  There are players out there…

Unsigned players projected to have 2 fWAR or greater:

Bregman - only for 3b, but seems like Sox FO isn't sold on this guy

Kim - if they want a MIF, I'd go with this guy

Flaherty - another injury risk for this rotation seems like a bad idea at this point

Pivetta - LOL

Alonso - not coming here

Santander - probably the best fit of the bunch, but so underwhelming to not be worth it

Scherzer - no

Profar - yuck

Kershaw - not coming here

[FredLynn]

10 hours ago, Randy Red Sox said:

yeah i thought he was way over 27 myself.  there is ALWAYS a reason the Sox didn't sign a top FA and Im sure it was never because Henry nixed them all--wink, wink

Yes, but they were “interested” in many of them. That counts, right?

Henry has turned in a real penny pincher who doesn’t seem to care about the quality of the product he puts on the field. When you look at some of the other big market teams and what they have done recently Henry’s prowess at not spending is obvious. 
 

We deserve better……

[moonslav59]

My bad on Kikuchi. I was looking at his age at debut.

I still would like that signing- just not as much.

Forget the signings by players who took less to play where they wanted to, ie Burnes & Teoscar. What signings that have already been made would you think would have been worth bidding more on?

[moonslav59]

How many here would be happy if we ended the off season by adding Grichuk and Estevez and traded Abreu for Catcher Caratini (1 yr at $6M) and RHP Luis Garcia (2 arbs left)?

Adds: Crochet, Buehler, Chapman, Sandoval, Caratini, L Garcia, Grichuk, Estevez & Wilson

Lost: Jansen, Martin, O'Neill, Pivetta and a few others, plus 3 of our top 8 prospects

1. L Duran CF

2. R Campbell 2B

3. L Casas 1B

4. L Devers 3B

5. R Grichuk LF

6. L Anthony RF

7. R Story SS

8. L Yoshida/R Refnsyer DH

9. Caratini-Wong C 

Bench: Rafaela & DHam/Grissom/Romy

SP: Crochet, Houck, Buehler, Bello, Giolito

RP: Chapman, Estevez, Hendriks, Slaten, Whitlock, L Garcia, Crawford, Wilson

[mvp 78]

I'd just add Estevez and not make those other moves.