7/08 A's @ SOX 4:10PM ET

[Bellhorn04]

I know it may come as a shock to you, but sometimes it better than the word on talksox.

 

Unless there's actual evidence, everybody's guess is as good as everybody else's. Guesses are fine, as long as you realize that's all they are.

[Old Red]

Unless there's actual evidence, everybody's guess is as good as everybody else's. Guesses are fine, as long as you realize that's all they are.

 

This we agree on, but for myself I like to get as many different guesses, and opinions as I can get from all different kinds of people, and venues. It’s like I’ve said many times I’d like to see a vote taken of all of Red Sox Nation sometimes on little things like Cora, JH, and Bloom, and some of the other things that go around, and around on here.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Cora's always going to be a stand-up guy because he did his time and kept his mouth shut so that people below him could skate in the eyes of the public.

 

All those Astro rats who threw Cora under the bus owe him forever -- not just for the unfair amnesty Manfred granted them, but for any financial benefits gained for inflated numbers on the back of their baseball cards. AC didn't get one single at bat...

[Old Red]

Cora's always going to be a stand-up guy because he did his time and kept his mouth shut so that people below him could skate in the eyes of the public.

 

All those Astro rats who threw Cora under the bus owe him forever -- not just for the unfair amnesty Manfred granted them, but for any financial benefits gained for inflated numbers on the back of their baseball cards. AC didn't get one single at bat...

Cora was the mastermind behind the whole thing. That doesn’t sound like a standup guy to me, and no one skated in the eyes of the public.

[moonslav59]

And I'm sure you have lots of concrete evidence that he was told not to.

 

So, one bad decision out of thousands makes for a crappy manager.

[moonslav59]

Unless there's actual evidence, everybody's guess is as good as everybody else's. Guesses are fine, as long as you realize that's all they are.

 

Like all the quotes never provided for all the "experts" that graded certain trades with an "F."

 

Talk radio is his bible.

 

It explains pretty much everything.

[Old Red]

So, one bad decision out of thousands makes for a crappy manager.

 

Really? That’s the only bad decision that Cora has made as a Red Sox manager? That Kike decision also was more than one bad decision too, because it was done day, after day, after day. The worst throwing SS in baseball that led to his having the most errors.

[Bellhorn04]

Cora was the mastermind behind the whole thing. That doesn’t sound like a standup guy to me, and no one skated in the eyes of the public.

 

Cora wasn't the mastermind. The scheme started at the top. I think that much has been documented.

[Old Red]

Cora wasn't the mastermind. The scheme started at the top. I think that much has been documented.

 

Not the reports I read from The NY Times, and the Sporting News as two sources.

[moonslav59]

Cora wasn't the mastermind. The scheme started at the top. I think that much has been documented.

 

USA Today:

 

"I have read many things that are true and many others that are not," Cora told ESPN. "Out of this whole process, if there is one thing that I completely reject and disagree with is people within the Astros organization singling me out, particularly (fired and suspended general manager) Jeff Luhnow, as if I were the sole mastermind. The commissioner's report sort of explained, in its own way, what happened. But the (Astros players) have spoken up and refuted any allegations that I was solely responsible.

"If there is one thing I am absolutely sure of, it is that it was not a two-man show. We all did it. And let me be very clear that I am not denying my responsibility, because we were all responsible."

 

I can't find one source that says Cora "masterminded" the cheating. Apparently he played a big role in making the plan work, but nobody said that it was even "his idea," let alone "mastermind,: as far as I know.

[Maxbialystock]

What isn’t a laughing matter is how Cora kept putting Kike out there at SS on a regular basis until he was told not to. That was more than just a bad managerial decision.

 

Very good point. Boy, have I misjudged you. Cora refused to play Story--oh, wait, he's been on the IL all freaking season Then he refused to play Chang. Oh, wait. Then he refused to play Reyes. Oh, wait.

 

Kike was/is the 4th choice SS because the other three were on the IL.

 

 

 

After that, of course, comes not playing Duran enough.

[Maxbialystock]

What isn’t a laughing matter is how Cora kept putting Kike out there at SS on a regular basis until he was told not to. That was more than just a bad managerial decision.

 

Very good point. Boy, have I misjudged you. Cora refused to play Story--oh, wait, he's been on the IL all freaking season Then he refused to play Chang. Oh, wait. Then he refused to play Reyes. Oh, wait.

 

Kike was/is the 4th choice SS because the other three were on the IL.

[Old Red]

Very good point. Boy, have I misjudged you. Cora refused to play Story--oh, wait, he's been on the IL all freaking season Then he refused to play Chang. Oh, wait. Then he refused to play Reyes. Oh, wait.

 

Kike was/is the 4th choice SS because the other three were on the IL.

Kike was the first choice when Story went down.

[Maxbialystock]

Cora was the mastermind behind the whole thing. That doesn’t sound like a standup guy to me, and no one skated in the eyes of the public.

 

I doubt he was the mastermind, but he definitely participated. He also paid the price.

 

Let's not forget that a little earlier the Sox were stealing signs and Pedey was part of it--enthusiastically so.

 

Stealing signs, legally and illegally, has been going on for a hundred or more years--until MLB teams got smart and used technology to prevent it. But you can still do it legally if the pitcher (or catcher) has mannerisms that reveal roughly what kind of pitch is coming.

[Old Red]

USA Today:

 

"I have read many things that are true and many others that are not," Cora told ESPN. "Out of this whole process, if there is one thing that I completely reject and disagree with is people within the Astros organization singling me out, particularly (fired and suspended general manager) Jeff Luhnow, as if I were the sole mastermind. The commissioner's report sort of explained, in its own way, what happened. But the (Astros players) have spoken up and refuted any allegations that I was solely responsible.

"If there is one thing I am absolutely sure of, it is that it was not a two-man show. We all did it. And let me be very clear that I am not denying my responsibility, because we were all responsible."

 

I can't find one source that says Cora "masterminded" the cheating. Apparently he played a big role in making the plan work, but nobody said that it was even "his idea," let alone "mastermind,: as far as I know.

Would it make you feel better in Cora wasn’t the sole mastermind? I bet it does.

[Old Red]

I doubt he was the mastermind, but he definitely participated. He also paid the price.

 

Let's not forget that a little earlier the Sox were stealing signs and Pedey was part of it--enthusiastically so.

 

Stealing signs, legally and illegally, has been going on for a hundred or more years--until MLB teams got smart and used technology to prevent it. But you can still do it legally if the pitcher (or catcher) has mannerisms that reveal roughly what kind of pitch is coming.

I believe this was above, and beyond what anyone else else had done.

[Maxbialystock]

Kike was the first choice when Story went down.

 

My guess is that was because he was on the roster. Once Chang and then Reyes took over, they became the SS's of choice. It is unarguable that of the four choices--Story, Chang, Reyes, and Kike--Kike is the only one who hasn't been on the IL.

 

Right now Story and Reyes are still on the IL. Chang is back and the better SS, but Kike's abysmal OPS is still higher, .606 vs. .513. But not against lefties--Chang's is .830.

[moonslav59]

My guess is that was because he was on the roster. Once Chang and then Reyes took over, they became the SS's of choice. It is unarguable that of the four choices--Story, Chang, Reyes, and Kike--Kike is the only one who hasn't been on the IL.

 

Right now Story and Reyes are still on the IL. Chang is back and the better SS, but Kike's abysmal OPS is still higher, .606 vs. .513. But not against lefties--Chang's is .830.

 

Kike had a pretty good record at SS over a scattered sample size. The idea of using him at SS, until Story returned, with Chang as the back-up, until Mondesi returned did not seem like an awful idea. It wasn't bashed back in March. Many hoped we would sign Andrus or Iggy or someone else, but I don't think anyone expected his D to be this bad at SS.

 

The Chang and then Reyes injuries forced Kike's continued play. Nobody liked the idea, but choices were few. I suggested trying Arroyo at SS, but he'd probably get hurt on his first play, there. We all wondered why DHam was not called up sooner, then we found out why.

 

It turned out to be a terrible decision that was worsened by the failure of Mondesi to recover, and unforeseen injuries to Chang and Reyes. This doesn't take Bloom off the hook for a bad choice(s).

[moonslav59]

I doubt he was the mastermind, but he definitely participated. He also paid the price.

 

Let's not forget that a little earlier the Sox were stealing signs and Pedey was part of it--enthusiastically so.

 

Stealing signs, legally and illegally, has been going on for a hundred or more years--until MLB teams got smart and used technology to prevent it. But you can still do it legally if the pitcher (or catcher) has mannerisms that reveal roughly what kind of pitch is coming.

 

What Cora and the Astros did was wrong and way more extreme than any other cheating scandals revealed. I guess he should be viewed as the worst villain, because he was better at cheating but worse at not getting caught.

[Maxbialystock]

Kike had a pretty good record at SS over a scattered sample size. The idea of using him at SS, until Story returned, with Chang as the back-up, until Mondesi returned did not seem like an awful idea. It wasn't bashed back in March. Many hoped we would sign Andrus or Iggy or someone else, but I don't think anyone expected his D to be this bad at SS.

 

The Chang and then Reyes injuries forced Kike's continued play. Nobody liked the idea, but choices were few. I suggested trying Arroyo at SS, but he'd probably get hurt on his first play, there. We all wondered why DHam was not called up sooner, then we found out why.

 

It turned out to be a terrible decision that was worsened by the failure of Mondesi to recover, and unforeseen injuries to Chang and Reyes. This doesn't take Bloom off the hook for a bad choice(s).

 

Please reread what you wrote. How can Kike be a terrible decision when you agree that Story, Chang, Reyes, and Mondesi were injured and Hamilton proved to be problematical? Also, his overall WAR is just -0.5. That's pretty lousy, but my understanding is that it means he would cost the Sox 1/2 of a loss more than an average player would--in 79 games played.

 

To me the SS situation is not unlike the catcher situation with McGuire gone. We've just watched our 2d straight lousy backup, which is why Wong is catching so many games.

 

So too the rotation.

[Maxbialystock]

What Cora and the Astros did was wrong and way more extreme than any other cheating scandals revealed. I guess he should be viewed as the worst villain, because he was better at cheating but worse at not getting caught.

 

You and Old Red agree, so it must be egregious.

[moonslav59]

Please reread what you wrote. How can Kike be a terrible decision when you agree that Story, Chang, Reyes, and Mondesi were injured and Hamilton proved to be problematical? Also, his overall WAR is just -0.5. That's pretty lousy, but my understanding is that it means he would cost the Sox 1/2 of a loss more than an average player would--in 79 games played.

 

To me the SS situation is not unlike the catcher situation with McGuire gone. We've just watched our 2d straight lousy backup, which is why Wong is catching so many games.

 

So too the rotation.

 

Had Bloom signed or added Iggy when he was released, it would have been a better choice than Kike.

 

I had hoped we'd sign Andrus and play Kike at 2B, and I think that would have been a better choice, despite Andrus not hitting well. (I'm happy the .499 Chang is back, as are many others.)

 

I was okay with the SS plan on day one, but GM are judged in hindsight, and the plan failed. Bloom got it wrong.

[moonslav59]

You and Old Red agree, so it must be egregious.

 

I should have put that post in green.

[Old Red]

You and Old Red agree, so it must be egregious.

 

That’s the second time Moon, and I agreed today, because we also agree on resting players. Anything’s possible!

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I believe this was above, and beyond what anyone else else had done.

 

You can believe whatever you want, but like Bellhorn posted, it is well-documented -- with admissions from employees -- that the Houston Astros analytics department masterminded the entire video sign-stealing scheme BEFORE they even hired Alex Cora as bench coach.

[Maxbialystock]

Had Bloom signed or added Iggy when he was released, it would have been a better choice than Kike.

 

I had hoped we'd sign Andrus and play Kike at 2B, and I think that would have been a better choice, despite Andrus not hitting well. (I'm happy the .499 Chang is back, as are many others.)

 

I was okay with the SS plan on day one, but GM are judged in hindsight, and the plan failed. Bloom got it wrong.

 

Did you just change the issue? I thought you were blaming Cora, but not it looks as though Bloom was the culprit on SS. I would have loved to see Iggy back one more time.

[Maxbialystock]

You can believe whatever you want, but like Bellhorn posted, it is well-documented -- with admissions from employees -- that the Houston Astros analytics department masterminded the entire video sign-stealing scheme BEFORE they even hired Alex Cora as bench coach.

 

Hah. I love it. Cora did his year in coventry and that should be the end of it.

[Maxbialystock]

That’s the second time Moon, and I agreed today, because we also agree on resting players. Anything’s possible!

 

Hold it right there, buster. I though every single contributor to talksox was/is/will always be against resting players. Except for me, of course.

[Old Red]

You can believe whatever you want, but like Bellhorn posted, it is well-documented -- with admissions from employees -- that the Houston Astros analytics department masterminded the entire video sign-stealing scheme BEFORE they even hired Alex Cora as bench coach.

 

The report I read said Cora was the most culpable, and another report said there were other reports that he was the mastermind.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The report I read said Cora was the most culpable, and another report said there were other reports that he was the mastermind.

 

The report with that label was from Manfred, who used the Astros GM, manager and bench coach as scapegoats so he wouldn't have to discipline any players -- because that would do the most damage in the public eye. Fans root for their favorite players, not management.

 

Subsequent interviews with members of the Houston analytics dept. (some whom got promoted) by investigative reporters reveal that the video sign-stealing scheme was developed in advance of 2017. Lunhow, Hinch and Cora either knew about it or implemented it, and certainly had roles. But it was system-wide.