5/22 SOX @ Angels 9:38PM ET

[Bellhorn04]

I thought Martin was the set up reliever. Oh, well, I'm just 2nd guessing.

 

Yes, when they have a lead, that is.

[mvp 78]

A catcher provides two services to the pitcher; calling the pitch, which the pitcher can shake off if he's not happy with it and providing a target.

It's not really that complicated.

 

Framing

Throwing out runners

Setting up the defense

 

If all they had to do was hold a glove, Alfaro would be in MLB.

[moonslav59]

Framing

Throwing out runners

Setting up the defense

 

If all they had to do was hold a glove, Alfaro would be in MLB.

 

Also, blocking bad pitches (and minimizing WPs) and building up the confidence & comfort level of the pitcher.

[moonslav59]

Who is giving up on McGuire? Not me. I've said several times the Sox need two catchers and I'm glad McGuire is one of them.

 

That said, I'll bet Sale, Paxton, Bello, and Houck have all made it known to Cora that would rather have Wong catch them. Kluber probably has too.

 

Sorry for implying you were down on McGuire.

 

It's funny how early in Wong's minor league career, there was talk he might not stick as a catcher, due to his defense, and McGuire was hyped as a very good defensive catcher.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

building up the confidence & comfort level of the pitcher.

 

... game-planning, remembering hitters' strengths and weaknesses -- from past and present series and same-day at bats or swings -- setting up batters two or even three pitches in advance, and calling pitches according to the pitcher's actual stuff that day...

 

... after an especially successful day for a battery, you often hear the pitcher marvel, "I never had to shake him off once."

 

And as for running the defense, don't forget the two most important words a catcher can bark to his hurler (it's not "throw strikes")... groundball to the right side:

 

GET OVER!

[Maxbialystock]

... game-planning, remembering hitters' strengths and weaknesses -- from past and present series and same-day at bats or swings -- setting up batters two or even three pitches in advance, and calling pitches according to the pitcher's actual stuff that day...

 

... after an especially successful day for a battery, you often hear the pitcher marvel, "I never had to shake him off once."

 

And as for running the defense, don't forget the two most important words a catcher can bark to his hurler (it's not "throw strikes")... groundball to the right side:

 

GET OVER!

 

I'll ask you but will be fine with an answer from anyone.

 

I thought most MLB teams now call the pitches from the dugout. Wrong? Does Wong call the pitches?

[Bellhorn04]

... game-planning, remembering hitters' strengths and weaknesses -- from past and present series and same-day at bats or swings -- setting up batters two or even three pitches in advance, and calling pitches according to the pitcher's actual stuff that day...

 

... after an especially successful day for a battery, you often hear the pitcher marvel, "I never had to shake him off once."

 

I posted this on another thread:

 

“Tonight was a little different because I didn’t have great command,” said Paxton. “But Connor did a great job behind the plate changing speeds and keeping those guys off balance.”

[Bellhorn04]

I'll ask you but will be fine with an answer from anyone.

 

I thought most MLB teams now call the pitches from the dugout. Wrong? Does Wong call the pitches?

 

See the post after yours.

[Maxbialystock]

See the post after yours.

 

Thanks. Stunning that a veteran starter would give so much credit to a rookie catcher.

 

This also helps explain why I believe every starter on the Sox wants Wong catching them. I think McGuire is still fine as the second catcher.

[Bellhorn04]

Thanks. Stunning that a veteran starter would give so much credit to a rookie catcher.

 

This also helps explain why I believe every starter on the Sox wants Wong catching them. I think McGuire is still fine as the second catcher.

 

The problem is that not one Sox starter has done well with McGuire. He has good numbers with some relievers, but not one starter.

[moonslav59]

The problem is that not one Sox starter has done well with McGuire. He has good numbers with some relievers, but not one starter.

 

That is so deceiving.

 

Houck- ONLY Wong

Whitlock- ONLY Wong

Paxton- ONLY Wong

 

That's half the sample size off the bat.

 

Kluber has 1 start with McGuire, so how can he count?

5 IP w Wong 1.80

37 IP w McGuire 6.87

Sorry, but I can't see how this example should mean much at all.

 

That leaves 3 others, and this is what all the debate is really about, IMO.

 

Sale- 6 GS w Wong and 3 GS with McGuire- YES a massive disparity (11.25 to 3.05, but one could argue McGuire only caught Sale as he was trying to regain what he had lost. Yes, one can argue Wong helped him find it more quickly, but do we know that?)

 

Pivetta has sucked with both catchers:

6 GS w McGuire 6.75

4 GS w Wong 5.17

Yes, better with Wong, but not by a whole lot and just 15.2 IP with Wong is one pitch from being equal or worse than McGuire.)

 

Bello- just 6 GS

4 w Wong 3.05

2 w Wong 8.22

A massive disparity but less than 8 IP with McGuire.

 

The fact that all 3 have done better with Wong does have significance. I'm not denying it, but when you say all starters, it really is about 3 of the 7.

 

I'd like to add one more thing: Crawford has as many GS'd as Paxton (2) and both Crawford and Winckowski have more IP than Bello, Whitlock and Paxton, but you only highlight the starters. I think they should be in the discussion, and they would make the score 3 for McGuire and 2 for Wong. (Crawford + Wink have more IP: 56 than Whitlock + Bello + Paxton: 55.1)

 

Wink

18 IP w Wong 2.50

11 IP w McGuire 1.59

Close but so is Pivetta

 

Craw

13 IP w Wong 6.08

14 IP w McGuire 1.26

Massive differential but small samples

 

[vegasbob]

The other side of the Mcguire equation was that he started the year showing he could hit effectively, while Wong was one of our 5 regular sub-Mendoza line batters. Now Wong has hit better, and McGuire has reverted to more of his mean, possibly due to declining AB opportunities as Wong catches most of the starters. McGuire offensively has become a L-R Ph'er for Wong in later innings .

[moonslav59]

The other side of the Mcguire equation was that he started the year showing he could hit effectively, while Wong was one of our 5 regular sub-Mendoza line batters. Now Wong has hit better, and McGuire has reverted to more of his mean, possibly due to declining AB opportunities as Wong catches most of the starters. McGuire offensively has become a L-R Ph'er for Wong in later innings .

 

OPS+

 

88 McGuire

86 Wong

 

It's about even on O, but certainly both are trending in opposite directions- duly noted.

[Maxbialystock]

That is so deceiving.

 

Houck- ONLY Wong

Whitlock- ONLY Wong

Paxton- ONLY Wong

 

That's half the sample size off the bat.

 

Kluber has 1 start with McGuire, so how can he count?

5 IP w Wong 1.80

37 IP w McGuire 6.87

Sorry, but I can't see how this example should mean much at all.

 

That leaves 3 others, and this is what all the debate is really about, IMO.

 

Sale- 6 GS w Wong and 3 GS with McGuire- YES a massive disparity (11.25 to 3.05, but one could argue McGuire only caught Sale as he was trying to regain what he had lost. Yes, one can argue Wong helped him find it more quickly, but do we know that?)

 

Pivetta has sucked with both catchers:

6 GS w McGuire 6.75

4 GS w Wong 5.17

Yes, better with Wong, but not by a whole lot and just 15.2 IP with Wong is one pitch from being equal or worse than McGuire.)

 

Bello- just 6 GS

4 w Wong 3.05

2 w Wong 8.22

A massive disparity but less than 8 IP with McGuire.

 

The fact that all 3 have done better with Wong does have significance. I'm not denying it, but when you say all starters, it really is about 3 of the 7.

 

I'd like to add one more thing: Crawford has as many GS'd as Paxton (2) and both Crawford and Winckowski have more IP than Bello, Whitlock and Paxton, but you only highlight the starters. I think they should be in the discussion, and they would make the score 3 for McGuire and 2 for Wong. (Crawford + Wink have more IP: 56 than Whitlock + Bello + Paxton: 55.1)

 

Wink

18 IP w Wong 2.50

11 IP w McGuire 1.59

Close but so is Pivetta

 

Craw

13 IP w Wong 6.08

14 IP w McGuire 1.26

Massive differential but small samples

 

 

This is good. You are kind of attacking CERA because the data on Wong vs. McGuire are not significant enough.

 

But I'm advocating a new version of CERA. It's called starter's choice, and my impression is that all the starters would prefer to have Wong behind the plate.

 

This does not mean that McGuire can't catch for the Sox because we need two catchers.

 

So all your data from the past that say McGuire has been pretty good behind the plate make a good case for keeping McGuire. And he won't just be the backup because no catcher can catch every game. For now McGuire will catch 1-2 starters each time through the rotation. He will be available to pinch hit for Wong and then catch in the late innings. He will also be available if Wong is injured.

[mvp 78]

The other side of the Mcguire equation was that he started the year showing he could hit effectively, while Wong was one of our 5 regular sub-Mendoza line batters. Now Wong has hit better, and McGuire has reverted to more of his mean, possibly due to declining AB opportunities as Wong catches most of the starters. McGuire offensively has become a L-R Ph'er for Wong in later innings .

 

McGuire has reverted in part due to a hand injury he's working through.

[moonslav59]

This is good. You are kind of attacking CERA because the data on Wong vs. McGuire are not significant enough.

 

But I'm advocating a new version of CERA. It's called starter's choice, and my impression is that all the starters would prefer to have Wong behind the plate.

 

This does not mean that McGuire can't catch for the Sox because we need two catchers.

 

So all your data from the past that say McGuire has been pretty good behind the plate make a good case for keeping McGuire. And he won't just be the backup because no catcher can catch every game. For now McGuire will catch 1-2 starters each time through the rotation. He will be available to pinch hit for Wong and then catch in the late innings. He will also be available if Wong is injured.

 

I'm not disagreeing on the concern over McGuire getting the most from the few pitchers both catch a significant amount of time- which isn't many.

 

I do think just about all of our SP'ers would say the prefer Wong, at this point in time- maybe even Kluber.

 

I don't think Crawford or Wink would, but they are not starters, right now.

 

I'm just trying to point out that it's not 8 to nothing.

[Maxbialystock]

Before we go onto the next game thread, I have to say last night was a heckuva game. Barria was dynamite in his first start of the year even though he relied heavily on just two pitches, slider and changeup. But those two pitches kept our guys off balance for 5 innings--which may even have carried over and benefitted the Angels bullpen.

 

Houck, on the other hand, started slowly but then just dominated the Angels, including Trout and Ohtani, who were both hitless in 3 at bats apiece vs. Houck. Too bad Crawford gave up the dinger, but that changeup was just too fat--and it looked like Moniak got all of it.