Optimal Lineup 2023.

[moonslav59]

If I have to choose, it's Duval in LF, Duran in CF, Verdugo RF, Casas 1B, Yoshida DH, Story SS, Kike at 2nd. If everyone is healthy I don't want Kike touching SS.

 

Are guys going to be rotated and platooned? yes. But those are my "all things being equal" everyone is healthy, and assuming Casas figures it out lineup. Switch out Turner for Casas if Casas never figures it out.

 

I have to think Turner will not be benched. Even a 1B platoon with Casas might be a stretch, since he'd be on the short end.

 

Maybe he plays 1B vs all lefties, and they rotate others to give Turner at least some PAs vs RHPs.

 

Good problem to have to solve, though.

 

I'm also not sure Duran will hit lefties good enough to stay FT in CF. Too bad Casas and Duran are both lefties.

[mvp 78]

I have to think Turner will not be benched. Even a 1B platoon with Casas might be a stretch, since he'd be on the short end.

 

Maybe he plays 1B vs all lefties, and they rotate others to give Turner at least some PAs vs RHPs.

 

Good problem to have to solve, though.

 

I'm also not sure Duran will hit lefties good enough to stay FT in CF. Too bad Casas and Duran are both lefties.

 

Duvall's defense in CF was pretty lousy. If Verdugo keeps playing well in RF and Duran can keep his head above water, Duvall is probably just going to push Yoshida to DH. Turner will end up just getting most of the AB's at 1B until Casas is really tearing the cover off the ball. Having the extra bats also allows Cora to give guys a break every now and again which he likes to do.

[moonslav59]

Duvall's defense in CF was pretty lousy. If Verdugo keeps playing well in RF and Duran can keep his head above water, Duvall is probably just going to push Yoshida to DH. Turner will end up just getting most of the AB's at 1B until Casas is really tearing the cover off the ball. Having the extra bats also allows Cora to give guys a break every now and again which he likes to do.

 

While Duran has looked improved on D, I'm not sure he's much better than Duval in CF.

 

I do th9ink if Casas is hitting well, he may be forced to platoon at 1B with Turner, and yes, Turner will get some ABs at DH vs RHPs as Yoshida, Duvall, Duran, Verdugo and Devers get some rest. The problem is, they all should rest vs RHPs, and that is when Casas squeezes Turner.

[Hugh2]

While Duran has looked improved on D, I'm not sure he's much better than Duval in CF.

 

I do th9ink if Casas is hitting well, he may be forced to platoon at 1B with Turner, and yes, Turner will get some ABs at DH vs RHPs as Yoshida, Duvall, Duran, Verdugo and Devers get some rest. The problem is, they all should rest vs RHPs, and that is when Casas squeezes Turner.

 

Should Yoshida be benched? If Casas starts performing how he is advertised to be should he be benched? What if DUvall comes back healthy?

 

Maybe DUvall is the guy who is benched because he offers more postional flexibility than those guys so you can more creative to get him at bats.

[Bellhorn04]

I trust Cora to do the right things. I don't trust anybody on Talksox to do so. :D

[mvp 78]

While Duran has looked improved on D, I'm not sure he's much better than Duval in CF.

 

I do th9ink if Casas is hitting well, he may be forced to platoon at 1B with Turner, and yes, Turner will get some ABs at DH vs RHPs as Yoshida, Duvall, Duran, Verdugo and Devers get some rest. The problem is, they all should rest vs RHPs, and that is when Casas squeezes Turner.

 

Duvall has a negative DRS, UZR/150 and OAA in CF this season and stated that he preferred to not play CF. I'm fine with moving him to a corner OF spot.

[mvp 78]

I trust Cora to do the right things. I don't trust anybody on Talksox to do so. :D

 

And yet Cora kept on pitching Ort and Brasier and thought it was a good idea to put Dalbec at SS.

[Bellhorn04]

And yet Cora kept on pitching Ort and Brasier and thought it was a good idea to put Dalbec at SS.

 

Cora issues or Bloom issues? Cora uses what Bloom gives him.

[Maxbialystock]

Silly thread. What has transformed this Sox team this season is the discovery of a whole lot more hitting than anyone on talksox previously believed was possible.

 

So a little reminder. Three years ago that idiot Chaim Bloom--backed by an even dumber John Henry--let Mookie Betts, the greatest baseball player to ever don a Sox uniform, go to the Dodgers. Then last year we lost Bogaerts to the Padres, but kept Devers, about whom more later. Bloom also dumped JDM, now with the Dodgers, and failed to grab Kyle Schwarber (a temp who hit well late in 2021 and in the playoffs), now with the Phillies.

 

To replace all that great hitting talent, Bloom has signed what has been characterized on talksox as the dregs of MLB. Like Trevor Story, who has underperformed, in part because he can't stay off the IL. Like Masataka Yoshida, a spindly (5'8", 176 lbs) leftfielder with no arm, not much speed, and a swing that everyone on talksox seemed to believe was, well, not quite MLB quality. Like Adam Duvall who was terrific for 8 freaking games and is now on the IL until June or later. Like Justin Turner, who brims with health and can DH or play 1b but whose OPS is .749 and rbi's total 10 in 32 games.

 

So why oh why are the Sox currently ranked 3d in MLB in runs scored with 184 and 3d in MLB in team OPS with .800?

 

A giant clue. Not because of any of the guys--Betts, Bogaerts, JDM, Shwarber, Story, Duvall--who are either gone or on the IL.

 

Another clue: also not because of our one true hitting star, Rafael Devers, whom Bloom and Henry decided to keep. The Sox have just won 5 straight from a decent Cleveland team and presumably stud Toronto team while Devers has plunged deeper into a slump. His OPS of .804 is lower than 2017's .819 when Devers was 20 and just brought up to Boston. His OBP of .279 is his lowest ever. And he plays every game in the heart of the Sox lineup, a fact which opposing pitching staffs have lately come to love.

 

Instead of the names the Sox no longer have, have but can't play because they're on the IL, or have but who are in a slump, this third best lineup in MLB is composed of no names.

 

Take Verdugo, please (old henny youngman joke). We know him pretty well, but in the pantheon of MLB stars he is absolutely a no-name, especially when compared to the guy who used to play RF for the Sox--Mookie freaking Betts. FWIW, Dugo's OPS is 1.4. Mookie's (to date) is 1.0.

 

How about Yoshida, the much-too-expensive guy Bloom brought from Japan? After a slow start, his OPS is now .906 with 21 rbi's. Compare that to the Jays superstar Vladimir Guerrero Jr's .905 with 18 rbi's.

 

And then there's Wong, Duran, Chang (now on the IL), Tapiz, Valdez, McGuire, Refsnyder, Kike Arroyo, and even Triston freaking Casas, who almost looked like a real hitter last night. Before this season, none of those guys was on anyone's "can't wait to seem him come to bat" list. Wong: good field, never hit. Duran: can't field, can't hit, but can run. Chang, Tapiz, Valdez: fuhgeddaboudit. Arroyo and Kike: maybe, but probably not. Casas: showed promise last year, showed his ass this year (until last night). Reese McGuire: backup catcher, not much of a hitter (career OPS .688).

 

So, me, I'm not so sure I want to wait for Story and Duvall to come back because I like seeing a lineup that's kind of like Forest Gump's box of chocolates.

[Hugh2]

Silly thread?

 

Well now my feelings are just hurt.

[Maxbialystock]

Silly thread?

 

Well now my feelings are just hurt.

 

They shouldn't be. The clear response to your OP has been to discuss it seriously.

 

That is, now that the Sox seem to be hitting, let's nail down the optimum lineup with guys like Story, Duvall, et al even though we don't know when they will return or how good they will be.

[iortiz]

When all Available, my everyday lineup would be:

 

RF Verdugo

LF Yoshida

3B Devers

DH Duval

1B Turner

SS Story

2B Arroyo/Valdez

C Wong

CF Duran

[moonslav59]

Should Yoshida be benched? If Casas starts performing how he is advertised to be should he be benched? What if DUvall comes back healthy?

 

Maybe DUvall is the guy who is benched because he offers more postional flexibility than those guys so you can more creative to get him at bats.

 

No, Yoshida should not be benched or platooned, unless something changes over a long period of time.

 

Turner is a proven vet who almost always does better in the second half. He was one of MLB's best 2nd half hitters, last year. I would look to bench him, either.

 

Duvall's start could certainly be a fluke, but he is not far removed from leading the league in RBIs. I could see him being partially platooned, if he comes back and struggles vs RHPs, but I don't expect that to happen.

 

The most likely platoon bats might be Duran and Casas, but both are LHBs.

 

Could Kike or Duvall be benched vs RHPs? I doubt it, but if Duran keeps hitting well, and Casas comes around, who knows.

 

I will usually defer to the vets, if all things look equal. One can't just go by who is hottest over the last 3, 4, 5 or ___ weeks..

[Hugh2]

They shouldn't be. The clear response to your OP has been to discuss it seriously.

 

That is, now that the Sox seem to be hitting, let's nail down the optimum lineup with guys like Story, Duvall, et al even though we don't know when they will return or how good they will be.

 

Oh they didn't get hurt. I didn't think it was that deep of a cut after you followed it by a nice robust post. Yes, Duvall and Story are HUGE question marks. HUGE because they both have the talent to be really good players but would you be surprised if they were plagued by some mixture of underperformance and injury the rest of the year??? I wouldn't be, but conversely, I think there's a really decent chance for at least one of those guys to really contribute to this team come playoff time.

 

It really takes the pressure off when other guys perform. I expect a regression to the mean by some, but if other guys can pick that up as the season goes on then I think this team (or at the offense) can be as good as it is now. Maybe not defensively, but from an offensive perspective the team looks to have great depth.

[moonslav59]

Duvall has a negative DRS, UZR/150 and OAA in CF this season and stated that he preferred to not play CF. I'm fine with moving him to a corner OF spot.

 

I am, too, but we aren't going to Bench or platoon Verdugo or Yoshida, so it means moving Yoshida to DH, which creates a logjam at 1B/DH.

 

The theory was about what to do if Duran keeps mashing and Casas starts doing very well.

 

There is no easy answer, but I did want to point out that making the decision on Duran in CF based on defense, just sends shivers down my spine, despite the fact that Duvall is no D whizz, either.

[moonslav59]

When all Available, my everyday lineup would be:

 

RF Verdugo

LF Yoshida

3B Devers

DH Duval

1B Turner

SS Story

2B Arroyo/Valdez

C Wong

CF Duran

 

Arroyo over Kike? Just because of a 3 game hot streak?

 

Or, because Kike has been sporadic and underperforming since 2021?

[dgalehouse]

The Sox lineup has been putting up some terrific at bats up and down the order. You get the feeling they are going to score every inning. It might be time to give some love to batting coach Pete Fatse.

[moonslav59]

The Sox lineup has been putting up some terrific at bats up and down the order. You get the feeling they are going to score every inning. It might be time to give some love to batting coach Pete Fatse.

 

As long as it's not to Bloom, it's a good idea.

[moonslav59]

It's hard to even come up with the 13 everyday player list, if everyone is healthy and looking good.

 

9 No Brainers

Devers

Dugo

Yoshida

Story

Duvall

Kike

Turner

Wong

McGuire

 

2 have to take a dive to not be on the 26:

Duran

Casas

 

2 likely to stay/add:

Mondesi

Arroyo

 

Have options:

Chang

EValdez

Refsnyder

 

No chance:

Dalbec

Tapia

Abreu

Hamilton

Rafaela

 

Since Story and Mondesi are on the 60, we'd likely have to DFA 2 everyday players to make room for them:

 

1 from Chang/Hamilton

Tapia

 

My line-up:

v R

1. L Yoshida LF

2. L Devers 3B

3. R Duvall DH

4. L Verdugo RF

5. R Story SS

6. R Turner 1B or L Casas 1B

7. L Duran CF or R Kike CF

8. R Kike 2B or L Valdez 2B

9. L McGuire C /R Wong C

 

vs L

1. L Yoshida LF

2. L Devers 3B

3. R Duvall CF/DH

4. R Story SS

5. L Verdugo RF

6. R Turner 1B

7. R Kike 2B/CF

8. R Arroyo 2B or L Duran CF

9. R Wong C/ L McGuire C

 

[iortiz]

Arroyo over Kike? Just because of a 3 game hot streak?

 

Or, because Kike has been sporadic and underperforming since 2021?

 

I always have said that Kike is nothing but a utility player. A great one btw. But that's it. Also his defense in the IF is not that good.

 

OTOH, Arroyo has a higher ceiling. Look at his 2022 numbers. I think he could be even bit better, and his glove at the position is natural.

[moonslav59]

I always have said that Kike is nothing but a utility player. A great one btw. But that's it. Also his defense in the IF is not that good.

 

OTOH, Arroyo has a higher ceiling. Look at his 2022 numbers. I think he could be even bit better, and his glove at the position is natural.

 

Kike has played way more than Arroyo, and not just due to Arroyo's many injuries. He has sat many games due to manager's choice.

 

If 2022 was Arroyo's ceiling at .736, why neglect Kike's

 

.786 in 2021, along with an explosive playoff show.

.806 in 2018

.836 in 2015

 

He's .730 career, which is about what Arroyo hit in 2022.

 

As for defense at 2B, Arroyo is no whiz...

 

17 DRS in 1761 innings Kike

 

9 DRS in 1044 innings Arroyo

[iortiz]

Kike has played way more than Arroyo, and not just due to Arroyo's many injuries. He has sat many games due to manager's choice.

 

If 2022 was Arroyo's ceiling at .736, why neglect Kike's

 

.786 in 2021, along with an explosive playoff show.

.806 in 2018

.836 in 2015

 

He's .730 career, which is about what Arroyo hit in 2022.

 

As for defense at 2B, Arroyo is no whiz...

 

17 DRS in 1761 innings Kike

 

9 DRS in 1044 innings Arroyo

 

That's cherry picking lol. Kike is nothing but a sub 700 hitter in 3 of the last 4 years. OTOH Arroyo has proven that can hit and get on base above average —286 BA and 350 OBP in 280 ABs last year. If he posts something similar moving forward, count me in that bandwagon. Time will tell though.

[notin]

That's cherry picking lol. Kike is nothing but a sub 700 hitter in 3 of the last 4 years. OTOH Arroyo has proven that can hit and get on base above average —286 BA and 350 OBP in 280 ABs last year. If he posts something similar moving forward, count me in that bandwagon. Time will tell though.

 

 

So you’re counting a 60 game season plus 30 games this year as two full seasons?

[notin]

That's cherry picking lol. Kike is nothing but a sub 700 hitter in 3 of the last 4 years. OTOH Arroyo has proven that can hit and get on base above average —286 BA and 350 OBP in 280 ABs last year. If he posts something similar moving forward, count me in that bandwagon. Time will tell though.

 

Also Arroyo had a .322 OBP last year, not .350. Arroyo has never had a season with a .350 OBP as his career high is .339…

[moonslav59]

That's cherry picking lol. Kike is nothing but a sub 700 hitter in 3 of the last 4 years. OTOH Arroyo has proven that can hit and get on base above average —286 BA and 350 OBP in 280 ABs last year. If he posts something similar moving forward, count me in that bandwagon. Time will tell though.

 

You crack me up.

 

How is what you are doing not cherry picking?

 

You spoke of ceilings, so I showed examples of what Kike's is.

 

Arroyo can't prove he is good enough or even stay healthy enough to get over 300 PAs in a season.

 

Kike, "the utility man" has over 342 PAs 5 times (5 in the last 6.) He has over 400 in 4 of the last 5 seasons.

 

No cherries to pick, there.

[iortiz]

You crack me up.

 

How is what you are doing not cherry picking?

 

You spoke of ceilings, so I showed examples of what Kike's is.

 

Arroyo can't prove he is good enough or even stay healthy enough to get over 300 PAs in a season.

 

Kike, "the utility man" has over 342 PAs 5 times (5 in the last 6.) He has over 400 in 4 of the last 5 seasons.

 

No cherries to pick, there.

I don’t think you are getting the point. Based in recent history I pick up Arroyo over Kike any day of the week.

[moonslav59]

I don’t think you are getting the point. Based in recent history I pick up Arroyo over Kike any day of the week.

 

Well, Kike has a better 2023 OPS.

 

He has 127 PAs, and you call him "utility."

 

Arroyo has 74 PAs, and his OPS was greatly boosted by the recent 3 game stretch, and I'm not getting what "cherry picking" means?

 

Any day of the week? How about the days in October 2021? (Now, that's some cherry picking.)

[Maxbialystock]

To me the argument about Kike vs. Arroyo is kind of silly because it's obvious right now that neither is a key to this team's successful season to date. They're mostly placeholders for Story, Chang, whoever. That doesn't mean I'm not rooting for them to play/hit well, but so far both have been disappointments.

[moonslav59]

To me the argument about Kike vs. Arroyo is kind of silly because it's obvious right now that neither is a key to this team's successful season to date. They're mostly placeholders for Story, Chang, whoever. That doesn't mean I'm not rooting for them to play/hit well, but so far both have been disappointments.

 

One could be a big key in this team's success, going forward. Picking the right one to play could be an important choice.

 

I know who Cora will choose "every day of the week," except on Kike's scheduled day off during a hot streak, of course.

[mvp 78]

Since 2020

 

Arroyo: 316/417/733, 11 DRS, -1 OAA (2B/SS defense only)

Kiké: 311/400/711, 10 DRS, -11 OAA (2B/SS defense only)