Vazquez traded to Houston

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The BIGGEST void in leadership starts at the top with BLOOM. There was team malaise to start the season, and a 10-19 showed that, and I don’t believe the Bungling Bloom handing of the contracts of Bogey, and Raffy helped matters, so lack of leadership yes, but it starts with Bloom, and Cora.

 

Maybe, but a true team still needs leadership from actual players. One of the media said the other day, "There's no Pedroia in that clubhouse..."

 

Who's missing from last year's stretch run? Schwarber? Iglesias? Hunter, ERod? Sale or Kike, who both participated (which gives more creed to voices) in the games? Could it be Ottavino was more important than we thought; look how good his new team is this season...

 

But yes, responsibility is also on Bloom for not replacing them with new difference-makers.

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe, but a true team still needs leadership from actual players. One of the media said the other day, "There's no Pedroia in that clubhouse..."

 

Pedroia, seriously? The guy who got destroyed for "It's not me, it's them", and probably by the same guy who says this now?

 

The media is so FOS.

[moonslav59]

[/b]8]Pedroia, seriously? The guy who got destroyed for "It's not me, it's them", and probably by the same guy who says this now?

 

The media is so FOS.

 

So, wait! Bogey, JD and Vaz are not good clubhouse leaders?

 

I'm confused.

[Old Red]

Pedroia, seriously? The guy who got destroyed for "It's not me, it's them", and probably by the same guy who says this now?

 

The media is so FOS.

Was Pedroia there for the chicken, and beer fest?

[notin]

Was Pedroia there for the chicken, and beer fest?

 

Was the chicken and beer scandal the most overrated scandal in sports history?

 

As AJ Pierzynski said “I’ve been in three clubhouses on three different and seen that in all three.”

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I tend to believe media members who aren't employed by the franchise but who are much closer to the actual vibe of the club, since it's their job to be, after all... unlike, say, fans who watch from afar and might not know or speak to any team personnel on a daily basis.

[notin]

I tend to believe media members who aren't employed by the franchise but who are much closer to the actual vibe of the club, since it's their job to be, after all... unlike, say, fans who watch from afar and might not know or speak to any team personnel on a daily basis.

 

So… not Tomase, the man who “broke” Chicken Gate?

[Old Red]

Was the chicken and beer scandal the most overrated scandal in sports history?

 

As AJ Pierzynski said “I’ve been in three clubhouses on three different and seen that in all three.”

 

But how many teams fell apart like the Sox did?

[dgalehouse]

The chicken and beer thing was perhaps overblown because the team collapsed down the stretch and the pitchers involved looked tired , out of shape and pitched poorly. It looked like Tito , a definite player's manager , was being taken advantage of. Maybe it happened on other teams as well , but it should never be excused , condoned , ignored or permitted. And where were the bench coach , the pitching coach and the team captain ?

[notin]

But how many teams fell apart like the Sox did?

 

Oh I’m sure there were others. The entire point AJ was making is “everybody does that.”

 

So I’ll nominate the 2007 Mets, who blew a 7 game lead with less than 3 weeks to go in the season as another team that collapsed with chicken and beer in the clubhouse for the non-pitching starters…

[notin]

The chicken and beer thing was perhaps overblown because the team collapsed down the stretch and the pitchers involved looked tired , out of shape and pitched poorly. It looked like Tito , a definite player's manager , was being taken advantage of. Maybe it happened on other teams as well , but it should never be excused , condoned , ignored or permitted. And where were the bench coach , the pitching coach and the team captain ?

 

From what I recall, the team was forced to play a makeup game on an off day that precipitated the collapse…

[Old Red]

The chicken and beer thing was perhaps overblown because the team collapsed down the stretch and the pitchers involved looked tired , out of shape and pitched poorly. It looked like Tito , a definite player's manager , was being taken advantage of. Maybe it happened on other teams as well , but it should never be excused , condoned , ignored or permitted. And where were the bench coach , the pitching coach and the team captain ?

 

Wasn’t they like 7-20 that last month, and had been a good team up until that point? That’s why it turned out to be the deal it was, and compounded by not making the playoffs on the last day of the season.

[moonslav59]

Every time a team does poorly, especially if there were high expectations, the blame game goes berserk.

 

Where was the team leadership and manager through all that chickengate mess?

 

Ow was the "mess" just a made up excuse?

 

Did we learn a lesson from all that?

[Bellhorn04]

I tend to believe media members who aren't employed by the franchise but who are much closer to the actual vibe of the club, since it's their job to be, after all... unlike, say, fans who watch from afar and might not know or speak to any team personnel on a daily basis.

 

Yes, but it's also the media's job to stir up s***, because that's what tends to get people's interest.

[Bellhorn04]

Every time a team does poorly, especially if there were high expectations, the blame game goes berserk.

 

Where was the team leadership and manager through all that chickengate mess?

 

Ow was the "mess" just a made up excuse?

 

Did we learn a lesson from all that?

 

2011 was a hell of a mess, there's no way around that. Leading to Epstein gone, Francona gone, Valentine in, the Punto trade...

[dgalehouse]

Having a chicken and beer party during the game is plain wrong . There is no excuse for it . I know I am old school , but the amount of nonsense , goofing off , gold bricking and lolly gagging that goes on today is disgraceful. And not just in baseball. It is everywhere. And the people in management and supervisory positions that allow it are a joke.

[moonslav59]

2011 was a hell of a mess, there's no way around that. Leading to Epstein gone, Francona gone, Valentine in, the Punto trade...

 

No doubt, but the thing is, it went on during winning seasons, too.

 

We blamed Tito. We blamed Theo. We canned one of the best of the best Sox manager we ever had over this.

 

What I was trying to get at with my "lesson learned" comment was not about making it okay to do what those gys did, but maybe not to play the blame game so harshly we make choices that have lasting negative affects- like firing Tito.

 

Now, we are facing extreme bashing of Cora and Bloom over what is happening, now. Is it totally justifiable?

 

I remember thinking Tito lost control of the team, back then, and agreed he had to go. I'm thinking I over-reacted and so did Sox top brass.

 

Maybe not.

[moonslav59]

Having a chicken and beer party during the game is plain wrong . There is no excuse for it . I know I am old school , but the amount of nonsense , goofing off , gold bricking and lolly gagging that goes on today is disgraceful. And not just in baseball. It is everywhere. And the people in management and supervisory positions that allow it are a joke.

 

I don't disagree, but we are talking about the best GM and manager the Sox have ever had, here.

[dgalehouse]

I don't disagree, but we are talking about the best GM and manager the Sox have ever had, here.

 

 

I like Theo and I like Tito . To me , 2004 was the greatest time in Red Sox history. I will never forget it. In 2011 , Tito was derelict in his duty for some reason . As were the pitching coach , ( was it Young ) the bench coach , Hale and the captain , Varitek . It was disappointing to learn about later.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yes, but it's also the media's job to stir up s***, because that's what tends to get people's interest.

 

I agree if you refer to TV blogs that intentionally use titles with the initials for the directions on a compass to mislead the masses.

 

I disagree with the old print media that I was once associated with; all of the reporters I worked with were sincere about reporting facts. In those days it was standard to have at least two legitimate sources verify information before publishing it. Columnists were a bit different, since it was their job to give opinions... but those who sought constant incitement weren't very well-regarded by colleagues.

[Old Red]

I like Theo and I like Tito . To me , 2004 was the greatest time in Red Sox history. I will never forget it. In 2011 , Tito was derelict in his duty for some reason . As were the pitching coach , ( was it Young ) the bench coach , Hale and the captain , Varitek . It was disappointing to learn about later.

 

There was plenty of blame to go around, and not making the playoffs was the result, and then the Bobby V Clown Show, which topped everything off.

[dgalehouse]

The Orioles have a record of 8-3 since trading Mancini, outscoring their opponents 57-42. Mancini was arguably as much, if not more, a clubhouse leader, great teammate, and fan favorite to the Orioles and Vazquez was to the Sox. Also, Orioles management more or less stated that they didn't think the team had what it takes to make it this year. Yet, the Orioles players have played as hard as and as well as just about any other team since they lost their beloved leader. It's all about mindset.

 

IMO, the Sox are lacking strong leadership from their veteran players, namely Bogaerts and JD. Obviously, I'm not in the clubhouse, but I'm just not sensing it. Duran especially could use some veteran leadership and support, but also Dalbec and even Devers.

 

I think trading Mancini was a slap in the face to long suffering Oriole's fans , who were just starting to get excited about the team . It has to hurt their chances of making the playoffs. The players are surely playing hard , but Mancini has to be missed..

[moonslav59]

I like Theo and I like Tito . To me , 2004 was the greatest time in Red Sox history. I will never forget it. In 2011 , Tito was derelict in his duty for some reason . As were the pitching coach , ( was it Young ) the bench coach , Hale and the captain , Varitek . It was disappointing to learn about later.

 

In hindsight, was it right to can Tito?

[moonslav59]

I think trading Mancini was a slap in the face to long suffering Oriole's fans , who were just starting to get excited about the team . It has to hurt their chances of making the playoffs. The players are surely playing hard , but Mancini has to be missed..

 

He was the clubhouse leader, for sure, yet the team did not pout and cry, when he was traded.

 

Yet, this team management was bashed for trading one our three apparent clubhouse leaders, in Vaz, and the team did not come close to responding like the O's did after the Mancini trade.

 

Oh, the intricacies of the game of baseball.

[Old Red]

He was the clubhouse leader, for sure, yet the team did not pout and cry, when he was traded.

 

Yet, this team management was bashed for trading one our three apparent clubhouse leaders, in Vaz, and the team did not come close to responding like the O's did after the Mancini trade.

 

Oh, the intricacies of the game of baseball.

I think there was more to the just losing their buddy Vaz then why the team was pissed. Difference between being pissed, and pouting, and crying. I think the feeling in the clubhouse was that losing Vaz made the team worse off at the present time. Vaz had been through the battles with the team, and came up with some big clutch hits along the way like last postseason run. Just a thought.

[Bellhorn04]

In hindsight, was it right to can Tito?

 

I don't know if it was the best thing for the Red Sox, but it was probably the best thing for Tito's physical and mental health. 8 years managing the Red Sox is a long time. And even though he won 2 titles, he endured a lot of abuse. It's a tough gig.

[dgalehouse]

In hindsight, was it right to can Tito?

 

In hindsight , probably not. But Tito had a long run and a change was probably in order. Sadly , it was handled very poorly. Tito was disrespected . Theo left. Valentine was supposedly brought in to crack down . But the players , who liked Tito, rebelled and Valentine got zero support from the front office . The whole thing deteriorated from there .

[moonslav59]

In hindsight , probably not. But Tito had a long run and a change was probably in order. Sadly , it was handled very poorly. Tito was disrespected . Theo left. Valentine was supposedly brought in to crack down . But the players , who liked Tito, rebelled and Valentine got zero support from the front office . The whole thing deteriorated from there .

 

Good summary.

 

The Bobby V signing was a complete disaster and wake-up call.

 

Would it be right to can Cora for the 2022 disaster?

 

[Old Red]

I think there was more to the just losing their buddy Vaz then why the team was pissed. Difference between being pissed, and pouting, and crying. I think the feeling in the clubhouse was that losing Vaz made the team worse off at the present time. Vaz had been through the battles with the team, and came up with some big clutch hits along the way like last postseason run. Just a thought.

 

Two entirely different views, which lead to different opinions. To one poster on here the clubhouse leaders mainl Bogey, and JD were pouting, and crying, and to me they were pissed off. To one poster Vaz wasn’t good enough to be the Red Sox C, and Bogey isn’t good enough to be the Red Sox SS, and add to that wanted them sold off in a fire sale. To me Vaz was good enough to be the Red Sox C, and Bogey is good enough to be the Red Sox SS, and didn’t want a fire sale. Two different views of things, which led to different opinions.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

In hindsight, was it right to can Tito?

 

 

Was it right to can Prince Albert?