2022 Bullpen Thread

[moonslav59]

Most people who follow the Sox know that the bullpen has been the major problem area . Starting pitching has been pretty good. Your unofficial scorecard lacks credibility. Right off the bat on opening day , Sox had the lead in the 8th inning and blew it. Had the lead again in the 10th and blew it . Lost in the 11th. The Yankee bullpen clearly out pitched the Sox bullpen. Yet , you say they did well . Credibility gone.

 

It's not a perfect methodology, but yes, I think 5 IP allowing 1 ER is doing okay to well. The ghost runner ******** is not the pen's fault. Sure, they could have done better, but the starter let bup 3 ER in 5 IP. Are you saying that was better?

 

I did this study to show that the pen has done okay or better more often than not, even if you add the pen game as "worse" than the starters.

 

Granted, the starters go longer innings and don't come in with 1-2 outs, like some RP'ers do, but overall the pen has a better OPS against than the starters. This isn't me trying to say our starters are a bigger weakness than our pen, because I don't believe that. My point is to show that maybe the pen has not been as awful as some here seem to think it has been.

 

If going 5 IP allowing 1 ER, but 2 stupid ghost runners score is bad, then we can agree to disagree. The pen kept us in that game, and they blew it at the end by allowing a man placed on second to score, twice. How many runs would our starters have allowed, if a man was placed on 2B in some of their innings?

[notin]

Houck looked a bit shaky in his save opportunity. Gave up a hit and a scorcher that story caught.

 

But I was happy he had a successful first save chance.

 

Glad Cora finally did this…

[moonslav59]

Glad Cora finally did this…

 

I think Cora will use Houck and Strahm as traditional closers, with Houck maybe going 1.1 to 2 inijngs every so often. Schreiber looks to be the 8th inning guy, for now. We could use another solid 8th inning guy, but our pen has been doing okay, recently.

[Larry Cook]

I think Cora will use Houck and Strahm as traditional closers, with Houck maybe going 1.1 to 2 inijngs every so often. Schreiber looks to be the 8th inning guy, for now. We could use another solid 8th inning guy, but our pen has been doing okay, recently.

 

Do a Hang’em Chaim sign Diaz this offseason?

[moonslav59]

Do a Hang’em Chaim sign Diaz this offseason?

 

I seriously doubt he ever pays more than $8-10M for a RP'er, and I think I agree with that strategy.

 

I realize the pen is becoming more and more central to team building, and you need to spend to get value, but I think the philosophy is to spend larger and longer at other positions.

[Larry Cook]

We are up 5-4 in the 6th-7th at Seattle and Cora brings in brazier! What was he thinking?

 

Hang’em Chaim has to get us a couple quality set up guys before the trade deadline.

 

This is so painful to watch.

[moonslav59]

We are up 5-4 in the 6th-7th at Seattle and Cora brings in brazier! What was he thinking?

 

Hang’em Chaim has to get us a couple quality set up guys before the trade deadline.

 

This is so painful to watch.

 

You answered your own question. It's the 6th and he only has a couple of quality arms rested and ready.

 

We need another Q arm or more.

[illinoisredsox]

We are up 5-4 in the 6th-7th at Seattle and Cora brings in brazier! What was he thinking?

 

Hang’em Chaim has to get us a couple quality set up guys before the trade deadline.

 

This is so painful to watch.

 

Not exactly the best example to use from last night. Brasier comes in with two outs and the bases loaded (thanks to Diekman) and gets arguably the Mariners best hitter on a ground ball to short to end the inning. He comes back out in the 7th, allows a weak contact ground ball to 3rd base that’s a hit only because Devers is shifted over in the shortstop position, then gets two outs and is replaced by Strahm. What did a Brasier do wrong?

 

Brasier was used when he’s supposed to be used, i.e. innings 5-7. The problem is the Sox have too many guys who should only be used in innings 5-7.

[Nick]

Couple of thoughts...

 

It's disturbing that Cora and the staff decided Houck can't go back to back games? He has to build up to it? How in the hell do you build up to it? Why didn't they ask Houck? He's not a pussy like others.

 

During the telecast, while talking about scheduled off days for starting positional players, announcers mentioned AC coaches regular season differently than the playoffs. It was one of qualities that made AC a great coach.

 

Question for knowledgeable pitching fans here.

 

How much does it hurt for someone like Pivetta to come out and get the last out or pitch the ninth inning? I wouldn't think he'd miss his 'turn' entirely. Would pushing back his start by a day restore his arm?

..

I'm serious about this. Don't the starters pitch between starts? How many pitches would they normally throw? How many days of actual throwing between starts? I just don't understand why a starter can't come in and pitch one inning two or three days before his next start.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Nick

[Bellhorn04]

Couple of thoughts...

 

It's disturbing that Cora and the staff decided Houck can't go back to back games? He has to build up to it? How in the hell do you build up to it? Why didn't they ask Houck? He's not a pussy like others.

 

During the telecast, while talking about scheduled off days for starting positional players, announcers mentioned AC coaches regular season differently than the playoffs. It was one of qualities that made AC a great coach.

 

Question for knowledgeable pitching fans here.

 

How much does it hurt for someone like Pivetta to come out and get the last out or pitch the ninth inning? I wouldn't think he'd miss his 'turn' entirely. Would pushing back his start by a day restore his arm?

..

I'm serious about this. Don't the starters pitch between starts? How many pitches would they normally throw? How many days of actual throwing between starts? I just don't understand why a starter can't come in and pitch one inning two or three days before his next start.

 

As you know Cora did this in the 2018 postseason.

 

But obviously they don't like to make a habit of it.

 

If it was a good idea, every team would be doing it.

[notin]

So the Houck As Closer experiment is over after 1 successful inning?

 

Not sure why Robles keeps getting more and more rope. Robles has been one of the worst relievers in MLB this year…

[moonslav59]

Not exactly the best example to use from last night. Brasier comes in with two outs and the bases loaded (thanks to Diekman) and gets arguably the Mariners best hitter on a ground ball to short to end the inning. He comes back out in the 7th, allows a weak contact ground ball to 3rd base that’s a hit only because Devers is shifted over in the shortstop position, then gets two outs and is replaced by Strahm. What did a Brasier do wrong?

 

Brasier was used when he’s supposed to be used, i.e. innings 5-7. The problem is the Sox have too many guys who should only be used in innings 5-7.

 

To answer your first question: I think they view Brasier as a one inning guy, and using him over two seperate innings might have been thinking they already pushed their luck. The second reason might be the match-up with the next batter- I forget who it was.

 

On the surplus of 7-7 inning guys, I think you got to the crux of the problem:

 

1) The surplus of 5-7 inning guys, some of which are not trustworthy in that role either, is not really a good thing.

2) We have 3 reliable 8-9 inning guys, and it's hard to call any of them a lock-down closer. Houck, Strahm and Schreiber can not handle 2 innings, every day. We need our starter to go 8 or 9, or we need a shaky pitcher, not named Houck, Strahm or Schreiber, to pitch the 8th maybe half the time or more. It's just asking for trouble.

 

I do think Bloom is to blame. He extended Barnes and gave the rare 2 year deal to Diekman. In his defense, I will say we had the same concerns about the pen, last year, and it worked out okay, despite the starting pitchers doing much worse, last year and putting more stress on the pen.

 

We can blame the limited winter spending budget or how Bloom allocated and divided the spending budget he was given, and that is all fair game. We can complain about how Story has not earned his paycheck, so far, or how Diekman has been a failure, but I'm not sure any RP'er signed for $4M should be expected to be a savior. We went into last year with no sure closer and a ton of question marks, and somehow Cora cobbled together a noteworthy season, using about 5-7 different closers and top set-up men. I think last year's success clouded Bloom's judgment concerning the pen.

 

That being said, focusing on the mistakes and weak areas seems to take front and center stage more often than not. IMO, when you look at the overall picture of what Bloom has done since day one, it's been a clear plus in almost every area. If you look at just last winter:

 

Story: not earning his paycheck, but not a complete failure. Take away everyone's best week, and he still leads the team in rbi per PA. That's a stretch, I know, especially coming from someone who usually criticizes those using rbi as a major measuring stick, but thos are the same poster most vocal about Story's failure after 53 games.

 

Diekman: I disliked the signing from day one. I know it's only $4M, but why did he deserve the rare second year?

 

Hill: At $5M, I think most would agree, Bloom got what he paid for. I had hoped for a little better, but I think he's a good 4/5 starter.

 

Wacha: A clear major score for Bloom. This signing alone, more than balances the failure of Diekman and slow start by Story.

 

Strahm: Another clear plus, and within the context of a pen in shambles, he's been a steady force in racking up wins when the pen was needed most.

 

Brining back Robles was a mistake, but at $2M, and looking at what he did, last season, I think it was an understandable signing. Other guys picked up, last year, have done okay to well: Schreiber, Davis, Refsnyder & Danish.

 

The JBJ deal has been beaten to death, but it looks a little better than it did when made, which to me, is not saying much.

 

As we stand right now, we are in the playoffs- same as last year, despite some major offensive struggles early on and a pen that looks like a coin toss, everyday. Considering where this team stood after 2019 and through the 2020 season, where we lost Betts, Sale and ERod while spending just $20M and had the weakest bottom 20 on the 40 man roster than I have ever seen as a Sox fan, I think Bloom's tenure, so far, has been a net plus.

 

This next winter will be his defining moment.

 

[moonslav59]

So the Houck As Closer experiment is over after 1 successful inning?

 

Not sure why Robles keeps getting more and more rope. Robles has been one of the worst relievers in MLB this year…

 

Is it a back-to-back thing with Houck?

 

I don't get it. The guy is young. He used to go 2-4 innings often.

 

Is Cora trying to ease him into a 1 IP every 2-3, then 3-4 days over time, and he wanted to start out not going back-to-back?

 

Either way, eventually we will have to use a scrub, when we only have 3 reliable RP'ers to go 2 innings every day. No matter what day Cora chooses to go with the scrub, he gets blamed.

[Bellhorn04]

So the Houck As Closer experiment is over after 1 successful inning?

 

No, Cora and the staff decided they didn't want to use him in back to backs yet. The 22 pitches impacted the decision.

[notin]

No, Cora and the staff decided they didn't want to use him in back to backs yet. The 22 pitches impacted the decision.

 

Odd limit for a guy they viewed as a starter just a little over a month ago…

[notin]

Is it a back-to-back thing with Houck?

 

I don't get it. The guy is young. He used to go 2-4 innings often.

 

Is Cora trying to ease him into a 1 IP every 2-3, then 3-4 days over time, and he wanted to start out not going back-to-back?

 

Either way, eventually we will have to use a scrub, when we only have 3 reliable RP'ers to go 2 innings every day. No matter what day Cora chooses to go with the scrub, he gets blamed.

 

 

Robles and Brasier have been two of the hardest hit pitchers in MLB this year and are best avoided in any key situation…

[illinoisredsox]

Is it a back-to-back thing with Houck?

 

I don't get it. The guy is young. He used to go 2-4 innings often.

 

Is Cora trying to ease him into a 1 IP every 2-3, then 3-4 days over time, and he wanted to start out not going back-to-back?

 

Either way, eventually we will have to use a scrub, when we only have 3 reliable RP'ers to go 2 innings every day. No matter what day Cora chooses to go with the scrub, he gets blamed.

 

No, Cora and the staff decided they didn't want to use him in back to backs yet. The 22 pitches impacted the decision.

 

I looked back at his game logs; in his major league career, the fewest days of rest he's ever pitched on is 2. I'm thinking they want to see him on an every other day basis (1 day rest) a few times before trying back to back games. He's young and doing something he's never done before; that seems prudent.

 

Today's going to need the pen; I'm guessing you'll see him today (assuming the Sox are ahead) and it will probably be for multiple innings.

[Bellhorn04]

Odd limit for a guy they viewed as a starter just a little over a month ago…

 

Back to back days is the key.

[notin]

Back to back days is the key.

 

But a month ago, they assumed he could do back to back innings. And not just two.

 

The handling of Houck from starter to piggyback pitcher to M-W-F closer has been a season-long source of confusion for me..

[illinoisredsox]

Per Thunder's Game Thread, Houck is starting today. I'm assuming they want 1-2 innings out of him. Not the worst way to see if the every day other thing is possible.

 

Hopefully, they aren't screwing with this kid too much.

[dgalehouse]

Personally , I don't blame Cora . He is doing the best he can with what he has to work with . Mixing and matching and trying to make it work. There is simply a lack of quality in that bullpen. It's not easy. As for Houck , I think it is an organizational decision to be careful with both him and Whitlock. I don't blame Cora for that either. I will say again that they should strongly consider Sale in the closer's role when he returns. At least for the rest of this season. I think that would be a huge help.

[notin]

Per Thunder's Game Thread, Houck is starting today. I'm assuming they want 1-2 innings out of him. Not the worst way to see if the every day other thing is possible.

 

Hopefully, they aren't screwing with this kid too much.

 

The Sox really do need to give some of the farm players a shot rather than constantly re-arranging the roles of the pitching staff. It’s like they seem to think if the can arrange these 5 pitchers in just the right order, they will somehow become 7 pitchers.

 

Let Houck close. Let Seabold or Winckowski start…

[notin]

 

Hopefully, they aren't screwing with this kid too much.

 

On this staff, the only way to know your role is to get injured…

[moonslav59]

The Sox really do need to give some of the farm players a shot rather than constantly re-arranging the roles of the pitching staff. It’s like they seem to think if the can arrange these 5 pitchers in just the right order, they will somehow become 7 pitchers.

 

Let Houck close. Let Seabold or Winckowski start…

 

Agreed. Just name Houck the closer and wiggle a way to fill spot starts.

 

My second choice would be to rush German to the bigs, or at least try Kelly, Politi, Ort, Bracho or a farm starter in the pen (Seabold, Winckowski, Bello.)

 

We need to start setting firm roles and sticking to them for a few weeks, anyway.

[Larry Cook]

What is it going to take to get brazier and Robles off the roster.

 

Those two are so weak.

[notin]

What is it going to take to get brazier and Robles off the roster.

 

Those two are so weak.

 

 

And Barnes…

[Larry Cook]

And Barnes…

 

Agreed!

[Jasonbay44]

Houck or Whitlock (when back) needs to be named the closer. The amount of games blown late is absurd

[Nick]

As you know Cora did this in the 2018 postseason.

 

But obviously they don't like to make a habit of it.

 

If it was a good idea, every team would be doing it.

 

I'm searching for an answer to "how taxing is it for a starter to pitch one inning between starts?"

[Bellhorn04]

I'm searching for an answer to "how taxing is it for a starter to pitch one inning between starts?"

 

How can we answer it any better than the evidence that the guys that actually run the teams think it's too taxing to be worth it?

 

They didn't do it in the old days, either.