2022 Bullpen Thread

[Old Red]

You keep all this complaining about analytics. Perhaps you liked the team better when there were no analytics but we did have the occasional 86 year championship drought?

 

Are you saying analytics brought the Championships?

[notin]

Radatz was the best I have seen the Sox ever had, but wore his arm out by throwing so many innings in a short period of time. I believe he struck out Mickey Mantle something like 47 out of 63 AB.

 

I’d struggle with the notion that Radars struck out anyone 47 times when his total was only 629.

[notin]

Are you saying analytics brought the Championships?

 

Yes.

 

Once the Sox started using the analytic approach, they did start winning. Even those early 2003-2004 teams were stacked with hitters who fit the OBP mold that was trendy at the time.

 

Are you saying analytics had nothing to do with the titles?

[Old Red]

I’d struggle with the notion that Radars struck out anyone 47 times when his total was only 629.

 

There are reports out there, so nothing that I dug out of thin air.

[Old Red]

Yes.

 

Once the Sox started using the analytic approach, they did start winning. Even those early 2003-2004 teams were stacked with hitters who fit the OBP mold that was trendy at the time.

 

Are you saying analytics had nothing to do with the titles?

 

Just as much as they didn’t win all those years without them. They didn’t win in 67, because they couldn’t hit Bob Gibson, and not because there wasn’t any analytics to help them, or Billy Buck to catch that ground ball.

[dgalehouse]

You keep all this complaining about analytics. Perhaps you liked the team better when there were no analytics but we did have the occasional 86 year championship drought?

 

The use of analytics and winning titles are two different things . There was a time when no one used analytics, and a time when everyone does. And somebody has to win the championship either way. Since this is the bullpen thread , please note that all four of the Sox' recent titles have come with a top of the line closer anchoring the bullpen.

[notin]

Just as much as they didn’t win all those years without them. They didn’t win in 67, because they couldn’t hit Bob Gibson, and not because there wasn’t any analytics to help them, or Billy Buck to catch that ground ball.

 

 

That’s my point. They didn’t win without them. (And you need a history lesson if you think Buckner”s error was a problem.)

 

But the Sox had plenty of great players over nearly nine decades and didn’t win. But ever since Epstein started with an analytic approach - which has undoubtedly changed over the past couple decades - four rings.

 

But some critics only acknowledge this approach when it doesn’t work and go blind to it when it does…

[mvp 78]

Mantle's 311 OPS vs Tiant is the lowest against any pitcher he faced more than 15 times.

[mvp 78]

I’d struggle with the notion that Radars struck out anyone 47 times when his total was only 629.

 

Only k'd the Yanks 81 times. It was Mantle 60% of the time I guess?

[notin]

Only k'd the Yanks 81 times. It was Mantle 60% of the time I guess?

 

Maybe they grew up together? And have an extensive history dating back to Little League?

 

Maybe we are just assuming it all took place in Sox-Yankee games?

[Old Red]

That’s my point. They didn’t win without them. (And you need a history lesson if you think Buckner”s error was a problem.)

 

But the Sox had plenty of great players over nearly nine decades and didn’t win. But ever since Epstein started with an analytic approach - which has undoubtedly changed over the past couple decades - four rings.

 

But some critics only acknowledge this approach when it doesn’t work and go blind to it when it does…

 

This is the first time I’ve heard the theory that the Red Sox won, or didn’t win championships, because of analytics. I don’t need any history lesson, and I’m still trying to figure out how analytics would have helped the Sox to hit Bob Gibson. Buckner’s error didn’t cost a game? What part of analytics doesn’t say that? Your entitled to your theory, but nothing I want any part of.

[Old Red]

Maybe they grew up together? And have an extensive history dating back to Little League?

 

Maybe we are just assuming it all took place in Sox-Yankee games?

Have you looked this up?

[moonslav59]

The use of analytics and winning titles are two different things . There was a time when no one used analytics, and a time when everyone does. And somebody has to win the championship either way. Since this is the bullpen thread , please note that all four of the Sox' recent titles have come with a top of the line closer anchoring the bullpen.

 

While true in one sense, the statement is a bit misleading.

 

Uehara was not a lights out closer when he came to the Sox. He wasn't even a closer. In fact, he was the third closer we tried in 2013. Still, he was lights out, but maybe our 3rd closer this year will be, too. LOL!

 

Kimbrel was a lights out closer, except for an important part of 2018. Some claimed we won despite his playoff performance, that year. Again, he was a lights out closer but with an asterisk.

 

2018 playoffs:

10.2 IP

9 H (2 HR)

8 BB

10 K

7 ER (5.89 ERA)

1.589 WHIP

[mvp 78]

http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2005/03/mantle-v-radatz.html#:~:text=Many%20of%20the%20obituaries%20of,47%20times%20against%20the%20reliever.%22&text=%22Radatz%20struck%20out%20Mantle%2044%20times%20in%2063%20attempts.%22

[mvp 78]

Have you looked this up?

 

I just looked it up again. The numbers that were put in his obituary were WRONG.

 

19 PA, 12 K.

[mvp 78]

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/dick-radatz/

 

Over his first three years, the Yankees’ Mickey Mantle had only one hit against Radatz. It was a home run. There was a story that circulated in later years, printed in a number of publications, that Mantle had faced Radatz 63 times and struck out 47 times. Asked by this author to run the actual totals back in September 2002, Dave Smith of Retrosheet found that Mantle had 16 at-bats against Radatz and struck out 12 times.

[Old Red]

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/dick-radatz/

 

Over his first three years, the Yankees’ Mickey Mantle had only one hit against Radatz. It was a home run. There was a story that circulated in later years, printed in a number of publications, that Mantle had faced Radatz 63 times and struck out 47 times. Asked by this author to run the actual totals back in September 2002, Dave Smith of Retrosheet found that Mantle had 16 at-bats against Radatz and struck out 12 times.

 

Like I said there are conflicting reports out there.

[mvp 78]

Like I said there are conflicting reports out there.

 

No, there are actual reports and "stories." The stories are fun and cute. The actual reports show that Mantle only faced him 19 times and k'd 12 times. The game logs are available for you.

[notin]

The use of analytics and winning titles are two different things . There was a time when no one used analytics, and a time when everyone does. And somebody has to win the championship either way. Since this is the bullpen thread , please note that all four of the Sox' recent titles have come with a top of the line closer anchoring the bullpen.

 

 

Actually in 2013, the Sox closer that eventually took the role and ran with it was a 38 year old pitcher with 14 career saves.

 

He was older and less experienced than Diekman, and was given the chance to become the “top of the line” bullpen anchor. But he absolutely wasn’t one when the Sox acquired him….

[Old Red]

No, there are actual reports and "stories." The stories are fun and cute. The actual reports show that Mantle only faced him 19 times and k'd 12 times. The game logs are available for you.

 

I believe you. I guess I’ve gone with the better story all these years. It did sound good.

[notin]

I believe you. I guess I’ve gone with the better story all these years. It did sound good.

 

The stories are more fun. I love the story about Adam Dunn homering into Kentucky, but it probably isn’t true…

[mvp 78]

I believe you. I guess I’ve gone with the better story all these years. It did sound good.

 

Striking out Mantle 2/3's of the time is pretty f***ing good regardless.

[mvp 78]

The stories are more fun. I love the story about Adam Dunn homering into Kentucky, but it probably isn’t true…

 

Let's see.

 

1. HR happened.

2. HR cleared the CF batter's eye.

3. There is a road and a parking lot directly between the stadium and the river.

4. Is there driftwood in the Ohio River?

 

I'm going to chalk this one up as PLAUSIBLE.

[dgalehouse]

While true in one sense, the statement is a bit misleading.

 

Uehara was not a lights out closer when he came to the Sox. He wasn't even a closer. In fact, he was the third closer we tried in 2013. Still, he was lights out, but maybe our 3rd closer this year will be, too. LOL!

 

Kimbrel was a lights out closer, except for an important part of 2018. Some claimed we won despite his playoff performance, that year. Again, he was a lights out closer but with an asterisk.

 

2018 playoffs:

10.2 IP

9 H (2 HR)

8 BB

10 K

7 ER (5.89 ERA)

1.589 WHIP

 

Foulke and Papelbon were first rate closers. Koji was definitely top of the line in 2013. One of the top performances ever. In 2018 , Kimbrel was 5-1 with 42 saves . A 2.7 ERA . An All Star selection. He struggled mightily in the post season , but still managed to save six of the eleven wins , without actually blowing a save. There have been some memorable blown saves in post season history , but not in those four championship seasons.

[moonslav59]

Foulke and Papelbon were first rate closers. Koji was definitely top of the line in 2013. One of the top performances ever. In 2018 , Kimbrel was 5-1 with 42 saves . A 2.7 ERA . An All Star selection. He struggled mightily in the post season , but still managed to save six of the eleven wins , without actually blowing a save. There have been some memorable blown saves in post season history , but not in those four championship seasons.

 

Maybe Houck or Whitlock will be this year's Koji.

[dgalehouse]

Actually in 2013, the Sox closer that eventually took the role and ran with it was a 38 year old pitcher with 14 career saves.

 

He was older and less experienced than Diekman, and was given the chance to become the “top of the line” bullpen anchor. But he absolutely wasn’t one when the Sox acquired him….

 

Koji had been kind of a well kept secret. He always had the stuff to be top of the line. Anyway , he certainly was that in 2013. That is my whole point , the championship seasons all had a top of the line closer .

[moonslav59]

Koji had been kind of a well kept secret. He always had the stuff to be top of the line. Anyway , he certainly was that in 2013. That is my whole point , the championship seasons all had a top of the line closer .

 

Yes, and I agreed.

 

Koji had some very good numbers before 2013, too- just not as a closer.

 

WHIP:

.955 2010 BAL

.723 2011 BAL/TEX

.639 2012 TEX

 

.565 BOS 2013

 

.917 BOS 2014

.917 BOS 2015

.957 BOS 2016

 

1.163 Cubs 2017

 

 

Having a great closer was certainly a major aspect of all 4 winning teams. No doubt.

Edited April 27, 2022 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Koji had been kind of a well kept secret. He always had the stuff to be top of the line. Anyway , he certainly was that in 2013. That is my whole point , the championship seasons all had a top of the line closer .

 

Interesting to note the drop off our closers had the year after the ring:

 

WHIP

Foulke .940> 1.555

Papelbon .771> .952

Uehara .565>.917

Kimbrel .995> 1.597 (w Cubs)

[notin]

Koji had been kind of a well kept secret. He always had the stuff to be top of the line. Anyway , he certainly was that in 2013. That is my whole point , the championship seasons all had a top of the line closer .

 

Koji was also 38 years old and really served more as a high leverage guy. He wasn’t a well kept secret. He just didn’t pitch most of his career in roles that earned saves.

 

And on this date in 2013, the Sox “top o the line” closers were Andy Bailey and Joel Hanrahan. If you accept Koji as the closer, gone. But also accept he was given a chance. And by selling the whole “well kept secret” justification, it does take away from the argument that it’s some sort of special skill set….

[Kimmi]

Diekman is struggling because he's a bad pitcher, not because of the guys around him. He fails against the bottom of the order.

 

They have no trust in Valdez and Sawamura and don't use them in pressure situations.

 

Danish isn't an MLBer.

 

Brasier should be DFA'd.

 

Crawford should be in WOO.

 

Barnes is lost.

 

It's a bad pen.

 

Average pen. Not bad, average.