Who should close going forward?

[iortiz]

88%. Are we ready to say he was almost as good as Rivera? Was he better than Eck?

 

He's definitely better than a guy like Thigpen and better than Timlin or Barnes.

 

88%? that's an impressive number. Wow!

 

Whata I'm ready to say again is what I said several years ago. He drove most of his career in Mo's highway.

 

He was an elite closer just as Mo.

Edited August 25, 2021 by iortiz

[iortiz]

Papelbon: 368 Saves, 8 Holds.

 

 

That is a fair large career sample for a closer.

 

Impressive.

[iortiz]

Papelbon doesn't get enough credit. He was excellent for quite a while.

 

 

Yup, just don't tell to U? lol

[iortiz]

Over the long haul, as indicated in the premise, a closer will have enough one run save chances to add some validity to the stat.

 

The biggest problems I have with save percentage is that it ignores tie games completely…

 

Thing is, most of the times, you don't bring your closer in tie games.

[moonslav59]

Thing is, most of the times, you don't bring your closer in tie games.

 

If the game is tied into the top of the 9th or 10th, they are often used, but yes, rarely on other occasions.

[iortiz]

I loved Pappelbon. He was fantastic

 

Can we get him back?

 

Very few could handle the pressure in the 9th for a long time as Papelbon, Mo and few others did.

[moonslav59]

So, the guy who comes in with the bases loaded and no outs in the 8th and up 2, and gets out of the jam with no runs allowed, while the closer comes into a clean 9th inning and allows a run but no more. The closer gets the save and the real hero gets a hold.

 

Nice stat.

 

Don't get me going on the 3 inning save.

[moonslav59]

It's weird that Papelbon actually had better 8th inning numbers, yet we are supposed to believe that Kimbrel could not handle the lesser pressure of the 8th and did way worse in the 8th than the 9th.

 

Do we have a name for people who do much worse in slightly less pressure situations?

 

Kimbrel

.485 in 9th

.641 in 8th

 

 

 

[iortiz]

If the game is tied into the top of the 9th or 10th, they are often used, but yes, rarely on other occasions.

 

mmm I'm not that sure moon about that, but if you have the numbers oks then.

[moonslav59]

mmm I'm not that sure moon about that, but if you have the numbers oks then.

 

It happens. Just look at any closer's game logs. Sometimes in the bottom of the 9th and 10th of tied games, too.

[iortiz]

So, the guy who comes in with the bases loaded and no outs in the 8th and up 2, and gets out of the jam with no runs allowed, while the closer comes into a clean 9th inning and allows a run but no more. The closer gets the save and the real hero gets a hold.

 

Nice stat.

 

Don't get me going on the 3 inning save.

Closers are brought when set ups can't hold in the 8th. In that situation you won't see a set up pitcher keep pitching and hold the the 8th. He most likely s*** the bed loading the bases and the closer is likely to come in to clean his s*** and very likely to get a BS.

 

Life and Baseball sometimes are unfair.

[iortiz]

It happens. Just look at any closer's game logs. Sometimes in the bottom of the 9th and 10th of tied games, too.

 

 

Sure it happens, but sometimes they are brought but sometimes they are not. It is not clear to me that it happens most of times specially in the 9th.

[moonslav59]

Sure it happens, but sometimes they are brought but sometimes they are not. It is not clear to me that it happens most of times specially in the 9th.

 

Tie games in the 9th or 10th don't happen much, but when it does, the closer is brought in quite a bit.

 

I don't have percentages, and I'm not sure how often it happens, but I've seen it, often enough to not be a rarity.

[iortiz]

Tie games in the 9th or 10th don't happen much, but when it does, the closer is brought in quite a bit.

 

I don't have percentages, and I'm not sure how often it happens, but I've seen it, often enough to not be a rarity.

Thing is that I have different impression specially in the 9th. My impression could be wrong, but I think most of the times they don't bring the closers in tie games in the 9th, but again, I could be wrong.

 

The 10th is more likely to bring a closer, yes, mostly before the new extra innings rule.

[dgalehouse]

Sometimes we make things too complicated. Mariano is clearly the king of closers. Papelbon probably belongs somewhere in the top ten all time. Don't need a thousand different stats to figure that .

[iortiz]

Sometimes we make things too complicated. Mariano is clearly the king of closers. Papelbon probably belongs somewhere in the top ten all time. Don't need a thousand different stats to figure that .

 

oh yeah, Mo is the greatest but Pap is a member of the cream of the cream group as a closer.

[dgalehouse]

Closers are brought when set ups can't hold in the 8th. In that situation you won't see a set up pitcher keep pitching and hold the the 8th. He most likely s*** the bed loading the bases and the closer is likely to come in to clean his s*** and very likely to get a BS.

 

Life and Baseball sometimes are unfair.

 

Generally , a closer will start the ninth with the bases empty . This is the most normal way a closer is used . On the relatively few times they are called on in the eighth , the tying runs may already be in scoring position. That's the way it goes . Sometimes they get a blown save that is mostly not their fault. Sometimes they get an easy save in the ninth. When they have a long career , all of that should even out. Career stats are pretty legit . Hard to be that lucky or unlucky for a career.

[iortiz]

Generally , a closer will start the ninth with the bases empty . This is the most normal way a closer is used . On the relatively few times they are called on in the eighth , the tying runs may already be in scoring position. That's the way it goes . Sometimes they get a blown save that is mostly not their fault. Sometimes they get an easy save in the ninth. When they have a long career , all of that should even out. Career stats are pretty legit . Hard to be that lucky or unlucky for a career.

 

oh yeah, Closers are brought most of the times in the 9th with bases loaded. I was only extending my opinion based on moon's post.

 

Agreed on career stats. They are legit.

[iortiz]

Generally , a closer will start the ninth with the bases empty . This is the most normal way a closer is used . On the relatively few times they are called on in the eighth , the tying runs may already be in scoring position. That's the way it goes . Sometimes they get a blown save that is mostly not their fault. Sometimes they get an easy save in the ninth. When they have a long career , all of that should even out. Career stats are pretty legit . Hard to be that lucky or unlucky for a career.

 

In my fantasy team Barlow has given me a lot of BS because they often send him in the eighth when the set up does not make the job and leave the game with RISP and cero outs, but yeah it is still rare situation in large samples.

 

As I said, Baseball is unfair at times.

[moonslav59]

oh yeah, Mo is the greatest but Pap is a member of the cream of the cream group as a closer.

 

No doubt!

 

By any criteria worth a grain of salt.

[iortiz]

No doubt!

 

By any criteria worth a grain of salt.

 

Agreed!

[TylerD]

Well tonight likely answers the question

 

We don’t have a closer!!!! Taylor can go for a while but I don’t trust anyone in the 9th right now.

 

Night folks. I’m gonna eat Cheerios and go to bed.

[moonslav59]

Well tonight likely answers the question

 

We don’t have a closer!!!! Taylor can go for a while but I don’t trust anyone in the 9th right now.

 

Night folks. I’m gonna eat Cheerios and go to bed.

 

Taylor by the process of elimination not as any kind of reward.

[mvp 78]

Well tonight likely answers the question

 

We don’t have a closer!!!! Taylor can go for a while but I don’t trust anyone in the 9th right now.

 

Night folks. I’m gonna eat Cheerios and go to bed.

Richards

[TylerD]

Taylor by the process of elimination not as any kind of reward.

 

Yup. Him or Richards I guess…..

[TylerD]

Richards

 

Ya I could see him trying closer as well….. not sure I’m confident with that but hey lol.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Uh.... they Sox are not specifically using the dreaded C-word, but it sure sounds like it (from Speier's column today):

 

“I don’t know there needs to be a structure to it. We don’t have to name anybody to certain roles,” said Bush.

 

Speier notes that not one world champ from the past 11 seasons had the final ring-clinching out recorded via a pitch by its opening day closer... and over half of those title teams changed closers by the end of the season.

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/08/25/sports/red-sox-have-late-inning-bullpen-problem-how-do-they-fix-it/

[mvp 78]

Uh.... they Sox are not specifically using the dreaded C-word, but it sure sounds like it (from Speier's column today):

 

“I don’t know there needs to be a structure to it. We don’t have to name anybody to certain roles,” said Bush.

 

Speier notes that not one world champ from the past 11 seasons had the final ring-clinching out recorded via a pitch by its opening day closer... and over half of those title teams changed closers by the end of the season.

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/08/25/sports/red-sox-have-late-inning-bullpen-problem-how-do-they-fix-it/

 

Alex Speier was one of the dreaded journalists who was pushing out the closer by committee narrative back in 2003 too.

[Bellhorn04]

So what term should we use instead of Closer by Committee?

 

(Committee rhymes with s*****, so that was the first place my mind went...)

[notin]

Alex Speier was one of the dreaded journalists who was pushing out the closer by committee narrative back in 2003 too.

 

As long as you have actual good pitchers, there’s no real issue with the whole “committee” approach to closing. Tampa has been using one all season…