trade deadline

[notin]

The discussion is silly. The money obviously would have been better spent on Scherzer than Pablo and HanRam.

 

The only point would be that is not necessarily the best path going forward. Especially since there is no Scherzer-type in the pending free agent class...

[notin]

Palmer had a history of shoulder trouble as didnHalladay.

 

Drysdale was from an era when pitchers threw 25 complete games. It is a wonder that any of those guys made it to 30.

 

I have heard a few talking heads talk about how pitchers also threw less pitches been as recently as 20 years ago, so it's also probably true for Drysdale and his era. We do now a lot fewer of them threw 95 mph back then. Bob Feller reportedly threw 98mph as his average fastball. That was considered freakish. Today, it makes him Nathan Eovaldi. Or Gerrit Cole. Or Jake deGrom. Or Tyler Glasnow. (Point being, while elite, it is no longer freakish.)

 

If a pitcher like Drysdale played today, would he be capable of throwing 25 complete games (ignoring obvious strategy changes that would prohibit it)?

[mvp 78]

The discussion is silly. The money obviously would have been better spent on Scherzer than Pablo and HanRam.

 

And if anyone is really a masochist and wants to read about what we were posting that offseason you'll be treated to multiple pages of people wanting to trade Betts, Bogaerts, ERod and anything else not nailed down for Stanton, Strasburg or a whole host of other deals that would have been horrid in retrospect. Was there a lively discussion about Max Scherzer? Of course not! We ONLY wanted Lester back and barely mentioned any other picture except for cheaper guys like James Shields. There's also a lot of really lame fights thrown in for good measure.

[mvp 78]

The only point would be that is not necessarily the best path going forward. Especially since there is no Scherzer-type in the pending free agent class...

 

Maybe in 7 years we can find one retrospectively.

[notin]

Maybe in 7 years we can find one retrospectively.

 

We will be having this same argument about Jose Urena?

[a700hitter]

The only point would be that is not necessarily the best path going forward. Especially since there is no Scherzer-type in the pending free agent class...

I didn’t say anything about going forward, just that HanRam and Pablo $ would have been better spent on Scherzer. There is no arguing that.

[a700hitter]

And if anyone is really a masochist and wants to read about what we were posting that offseason you'll be treated to multiple pages of people wanting to trade Betts, Bogaerts, ERod and anything else not nailed down for Stanton, Strasburg or a whole host of other deals that would have been horrid in retrospect. Was there a lively discussion about Max Scherzer? Of course not! We ONLY wanted Lester back and barely mentioned any other picture except for cheaper guys like James Shields. There's also a lot of really lame fights thrown in for good measure.

So?

[notin]

I didn’t say anything about going forward, just that HanRam and Pablo $ would have been better spent on Scherzer. There is no arguing that.

 

And who said the Sox were smarter to sign Hanley and Pablo over Scherzer?

[a700hitter]

And who said the Sox were smarter to sign Hanley and Pablo over Scherzer?

So, there was no need to extrapolate my statement to the current FA market.

[mvp 78]

We will be having this same argument about Jose Urena?

 

Maybe?

[mvp 78]

So?

 

The move seems obvious in retrospect, but at the time, the narrative was elsewhere.

[moonslav59]

The move seems obvious in retrospect, but at the time, the narrative was elsewhere.

 

At the time, we needed offense and defense, and I think the thought was that more top pitchers were available the next winter (like Price), so they ordered their winters with offense going first.

[mvp 78]

At the time, we needed offense and defense, and I think the thought was that more top pitchers were available the next winter (like Price), so they ordered their winters with offense going first.

 

There were more, but it's debatable if any of them were better than Max.

 

Price

Greinke

Cueto

Zimmermann

Samarzija

Leake

Kazmir

Happ

Lackey

 

The real bargain was Rich Hill at 1/6. Sox should have just said "we'll give you a rotation spot."

[moonslav59]

There were more, but it's debatable if any of them were better than Max.

 

Price

Greinke

Cueto

Zimmermann

Samarzija

Leake

Kazmir

Happ

Lackey

 

The real bargain was Rich Hill at 1/6. Sox should have just said "we'll give you a rotation spot."

 

Agreed.

 

I do think Price and Scherzer had very similar backgrounds at the time of their signings, and we did get Price.

[a700hitter]

The move seems obvious in retrospect, but at the time, the narrative was elsewhere.

 

It is obvious in retrospect.

[a700hitter]

At the time, we needed offense and defense, and I think the thought was that more top pitchers were available the next winter (like Price), so they ordered their winters with offense going first.

Pablo was for the offense?

[moonslav59]

Pablo was for the offense?

 

I didn't say I liked the moves or that they worked.

 

I just tried to explain their possible thinking. I think they felt we needed offense and pitching and decided to go for pitching the following year.

 

At the time, I think many people would say Scherzer and Price were pretty similar, so maybe that part of their thinking was not all that flawed.

 

Certainly signing Pablo was seriously flawed.

 

In hindsight, we could have signed Scherzer and Cruz, and Ben might still be our GM.

[mvp 78]

It is obvious in retrospect.

 

It was a very bad offseason to want to spend. The only contracts that were worth it in the long run were Max, Lester and Nelson Cruz.

[mvp 78]

In hindsight, we could have signed Scherzer and Cruz, and Ben might still be our GM.

 

It should have been Abreu in 2013, Max in 2014, Zobrist in 2015. Those 3 moves would have prevented some disasters later on.

[moonslav59]

It was a very bad offseason to want to spend. The only contracts that were worth it in the long run were Max, Lester and Nelson Cruz.

 

Had we gotten Scherzer and Nelson Cruz, instead of Price, HRam and Pablo, who knows how many rings we might have.

[moonslav59]

It should have been Abreu in 2013, Max in 2014, Zobrist in 2015. Those 3 moves would have prevented some disasters later on.

 

The thing about this statement is it is not really just hindsight "what ifism."

 

These were all very reasonable deals in foresight, too.

 

Not getting Abreu caused the Castillo deal,

[notin]

Agreed.

 

I do think Price and Scherzer had very similar backgrounds at the time of their signings, and we did get Price.

 

It really just shows how much of a dice roll those type of moves can be. Except that unless you roll a 6, you probably don't win...

[a700hitter]

I didn't say I liked the moves or that they worked.

 

I just tried to explain their possible thinking. I think they felt we needed offense and pitching and decided to go for pitching the following year.

 

At the time, I think many people would say Scherzer and Price were pretty similar, so maybe that part of their thinking was not all that flawed.

 

Certainly signing Pablo was seriously flawed.

 

In hindsight, we could have signed Scherzer and Cruz, and Ben might still be our GM.

i get it. It just makes me shake my head that the FO thought Pablo would address the needs of our offense. It was clueless.

[mvp 78]

The thing about this statement is it is not really just hindsight "what ifism."

 

These were all very reasonable deals in foresight, too.

 

Not getting Abreu caused the Castillo deal,

 

Yes, I didn't just want to go through and do a what if. Abreu was a need. There were no 1b's ready in the pipeline and Napoli was going to be out sooner than later. Max was the clear cut best FA SP in those years and didn't come with some of the Price questions. Zobrist would have been a great, cheap plug and play guy.

 

Deals like Panda and Hanley just rarely work out. Panda wasn't a consistent producer and his weight forced him out of SF. Hanley was just not consistently healthy and he turned into a pumpkin at age 30. He was set to be a mega star at age 25, but it didn't turn out that way.

[mvp 78]

i get it. It just makes me shake my head that the FO thought Pablo would address the needs of our offense. It was clueless.

 

I think it was a move pushed by Werner's stupid Cosby Show brain to help sell Panda hats and get "stars" for his newest tv show.

[notin]

i get it. It just makes me shake my head that the FO thought Pablo would address the needs of our offense. It was clueless.

 

Sandoval had an OPS+ of 116 for the three seasons prior to signing with Boston. But yes, his OPS+ had been going down slowly over the previous 4 years. Still, he did figure to be an offensive upgrade over Middlebrooks, whose career OPS+ was 88 at the time...

[moonslav59]

Sandoval had an OPS+ of 116 for the three seasons prior to signing with Boston. But yes, his OPS+ had been going down slowly over the previous 4 years. Still, he did figure to be an offensive upgrade over Middlebrooks, whose career OPS+ was 88 at the time...

 

Maybe they had visions of Big Papi.

[mvp 78]

Sandoval had an OPS+ of 116 for the three seasons prior to signing with Boston. But yes, his OPS+ had been going down slowly over the previous 4 years. Still, he did figure to be an offensive upgrade over Middlebrooks, whose career OPS+ was 88 at the time...

 

Little did they know that all they had to do was call up Shaw and then wait for Moncada or Devers to develop.

[moonslav59]

i get it. It just makes me shake my head that the FO thought Pablo would address the needs of our offense. It was clueless.

 

I shook my head, too, but I also expected a significant upgrade at 3B over Middy. It's not like Pablo was old and bad.

 

BTW, he's done okay after leaving Boston.

 

.734 OPS

28 HRs in 659 ABs (63 XBHs)

 

That would have been a big help.

[moonslav59]

Yes, I didn't just want to go through and do a what if. Abreu was a need. There were no 1b's ready in the pipeline and Napoli was going to be out sooner than later. Max was the clear cut best FA SP in those years and didn't come with some of the Price questions. Zobrist would have been a great, cheap plug and play guy.

 

Deals like Panda and Hanley just rarely work out. Panda wasn't a consistent producer and his weight forced him out of SF. Hanley was just not consistently healthy and he turned into a pumpkin at age 30. He was set to be a mega star at age 25, but it didn't turn out that way.

 

We did make a strong push for Abreu- just not strong enough.