Why was Mookie traded, exactly?

[Kimmi]

It's all Ben's fault, actually.

 

1) Horrendous free agent signings.

2) Left the team with no top of the line pitching.

 

(I'm half-kidding.)

 

This is not even a half kidding post.

[cp176]

I bet JH has a budget and once they got to the tipping point it was a "you can't get there from here" moment.

 

I wonder if JH spends less time fretting about particular roster moves than we do. To him, the budget is the budget. The ultimate value is the cash that comes in and the market value of the club. He probably doesn't even know who Tristan Casas is.

 

That damned JH - always a stickler for that budget of his.

[cp176]

It's all Ben's fault, actually.

 

1) Horrendous free agent signings.

2) Left the team with no top of the line pitching.

 

(I'm half-kidding.)

 

I'm half agreeing!

[Bellhorn04]

This is not even a half kidding post.

 

Kimmi, that post was directed solely at notin. He and I have been having a spirited running debate about whether DD is the guy who was really responsible for the Sox not being able to keep Mookie.

 

And let me make clear - although I defend DD against certain criticisms, I'm happy that we replaced him with Bloom.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, that post was directed solely at notin. He and I have been having a spirited running debate about whether DD is the guy who was really responsible for the Sox not being able to keep Mookie.

 

And let me make clear - although I defend DD against certain criticisms, I'm happy that we replaced him with Bloom.

 

I will admit that I wasn't sure exactly what the context of the post was. I have been skimming most of the threads because 1) I have not had much time for reading and posting, especially when there are several pages of new posts since the last time I logged in and 2) a lot of this off season and budget stuff just does not interest me. Wake me up when the Sox sign or trade for someone. LOL

 

That said, the Sox should not have kept Mookie at the price that he was asking for, regardless of whether they could keep him or not. And Dombrowski is 100% responsible for the Sox not being able to keep Mookie. We knew this would happen on the day that Dombrowski was hired. So in a way, I guess we should thank Dombrowski. Hehe.

[Bellhorn04]

That said, the Sox should not have kept Mookie at the price that he was asking for, regardless of whether they could keep him or not. And Dombrowski is 100% responsible for the Sox not being able to keep Mookie. We knew this would happen on the day that Dombrowski was hired. So in a way, I guess we should thank Dombrowski. Hehe.

 

Well, I disagree 100% about the 100%, and I'm surprised you think so. John Henry and Tom Werner are the guys who decide when enough is enough.

 

And they did offer Mookie $300 million, and he turned it down. No one has disputed that.

[Bellhorn04]

To me, blaming Dombrowski for Mookie is scapegoating. It's finding a convenient target.

 

Is it Dombrowski's fault that Mookie turned down $300 million or that he always seemed so determined to become a free agent?

 

Obviously not.

[Kimmi]

Well, I disagree 100% about the 100%, and I'm surprised you think so. John Henry and Tom Werner are the guys who decide when enough is enough.

 

And they did offer Mookie $300 million, and he turned it down. No one has disputed that.

 

I'm using a bit of hyperbole, of course. Henry is at fault for hiring Dombrowski in the first place and not allowing Ben a chance to see his 5 year plan through. Henry knew what he was getting when he hired Dombrowski.

 

IMO, Dombrowski did not have to go to the extreme that he went to in order to build a World Series Championship winner. Also IMO, we likely would have won a World Series if Ben had remained the GM. At the very least, we would have won a couple of division titles and made it to the playoffs in 2016, 2017, and 2018, with the outcome of the playoffs being a crap shoot. And, the team would be in better shape today, meaning we likely would have been in the playoffs this year.

[Kimmi]

To me, blaming Dombrowski for Mookie is scapegoating. It's finding a convenient target.

 

Is it Dombrowski's fault that Mookie turned down $300 million or that he always seemed so determined to become a free agent?

 

Obviously not.

 

As I said many times, I am 100% glad that Mookie turned down the offer and that the Sox did not spend that kind of money on him, or any player.

 

This argument for me is not really about not being able to sign Mookie, but the state of the team in general, as far as having little flexibility in terms of both payroll and prospects.

[Bellhorn04]

As I said many times, I am 100% glad that Mookie turned down the offer and that the Sox did not spend that kind of money on him, or any player.

 

This argument for me is not really about not being able to sign Mookie, but the state of the team in general, as far as having little flexibility in terms of both payroll and prospects.

 

You said Dombrowski is 100% responsible for the Sox not being able to keep Mookie. Do you believe that or not?

[Bellhorn04]

The Red Sox offer was $300 million.

 

Mookie signed for $365 million. (Leaving out the pandemic and the deferred money factor which brought the present value down to *ugh* $307 million.)

 

It all came down to a difference of $65 million.

 

Less than we blew on Pablo, or Hanley, or Castillo, or any of Dave's big contracts.

 

A pittance in the overall picture.

[Bellhorn04]

With regard to the Red Sox luxury tax situation going into 2020, it's totally fair to say that it was on Ben as much as Dave.

 

In 2018, the first year they went over the limit, the threshold was 197 million and the payroll for tax purposes was about 240 million.

 

That 240 million included 55 million for HanRam, Pablo and Pedroia. If not for the 55 million of dead money they would have been at 185 million and paid no tax.

 

That doesn't include the 12 million for Castillo that didn't count for tax purposes.

 

So if you want to point fingers at who put the Red Sox into the tax squeeze, point one at Dave and one at Ben.

[notin]

You said Dombrowski is 100% responsible for the Sox not being able to keep Mookie. Do you believe that or not?

 

You sure it wasn’t me who said that?

 

Sounds closer to my position...

[notin]

To me, blaming Dombrowski for Mookie is scapegoating. It's finding a convenient target.

 

Is it Dombrowski's fault that Mookie turned down $300 million or that he always seemed so determined to become a free agent?

 

Obviously not.

 

 

Actually blaming DD for the Mookie situation is an indictment of Dombrowski’s “Spend Heavy, Trade the Future, Win Now, f*** Tomorrow” strategy he has been employing for several years and through multiple teams....

[Bellhorn04]

Actually blaming DD for the Mookie situation is an indictment of Dombrowski’s “Spend Heavy, Trade the Future, Win Now, f*** Tomorrow” strategy he has been employing for several years and through multiple teams....

 

Oh, I know. But it ignores the crucial facts of the Mookie situation.

 

Uppermost being that Mookie turned down $300 million from us, and then signed for not a whole lot more than that.

[notin]

Oh, I know. But it ignores the crucial facts of the Mookie situation.

 

Uppermost being that Mookie turned down $300 million from us, and then signed for not a whole lot more than that.

 

And yet is epitomizes the results. We did win, which is good and a lot more than Detroit gout out of it. But we started 2020 with the remnants of that great team from two years ago, still heavy on debts, short on promise, and only a fraction of the talent remaining...

[Bellhorn04]

And yet is epitomizes the results. We did win, which is good and a lot more than Detroit gout out of it. But we started 2020 with the remnants of that great team from two years ago, still heavy on debts, short on promise, and only a fraction of the talent remaining...

 

All extraneous to the issue of keeping Mookie or not.

[Bellhorn04]

And yet is epitomizes the results. We did win, which is good and a lot more than Detroit gout out of it. But we started 2020 with the remnants of that great team from two years ago, still heavy on debts, short on promise, and only a fraction of the talent remaining...

 

Also, prior to trading Mookie and Price, we still had a pretty big contingent left from the 2018 team.

[dgalehouse]

Also, prior to trading Mookie and Price, we still had a pretty big contingent left from the 2018 team.

 

Starting the 2019 season , these same folks were saying that we have almost the same team back , and things were looking good for a repeat. I guess they forgot about that.

[Bellhorn04]

As for all the talent DD traded away, I know we've been over this a few times, but the fact is that we don't know if any of that talent would have made much difference to our present situation.

 

Only one of those players has had a season with an fWAR higher than 2.1. That was Moncada in 2019.

[notin]

As for all the talent DD traded away, I know we've been over this a few times, but the fact is that we don't know if any of that talent would have made much difference to our present situation.

 

Only one of those players has had a season with an fWAR higher than 2.1. That was Moncada in 2019.

 

Again, they at least bring the advantage of playing for minimum wage. And it compounds.

 

For example, the Sox gave up 2 MLB relievers and spent some $15 million to replace Dustin Pedroia the last few seasons. When Mauricio Dubon could have done it for $515,000. Or maybe Carlos Asuaje for the same price...

[dgalehouse]

As for all the talent DD traded away, I know we've been over this a few times, but the fact is that we don't know if any of that talent would have made much difference to our present situation.

 

Only one of those players has had a season with an fWAR higher than 2.1. That was Moncada in 2019.

I don't know if the traded prospects will develop into stars . Perhaps they will . Perhaps not. I do know that we got a lot of thrills , a lot of excitement and a lot of winning in the meantime. I do believe it was well worth it.

[notin]

Also, prior to trading Mookie and Price, we still had a pretty big contingent left from the 2018 team.

 

Yes and we were going to for far too long...

[notin]

I don't know if the traded prospects will develop into stars . Perhaps they will . Perhaps not. I do know that we got a lot of thrills , a lot of excitement and a lot of winning in the meantime. I do believe it was well worth it.

 

And yet you still won’t pass up the chance to denigrate the current team. THIS is a direct result.

 

Everyone likes the party. No one likes cleaning up after. But don’t complain about it if you want to get invited to the next one...

[Bellhorn04]

And yet you still won’t pass up the chance to denigrate the current team. THIS is a direct result.

 

Everyone likes the party. No one likes cleaning up after. But don’t complain about it if you want to get invited to the next one...

 

Personally, I'm fine with cleaning up after the party.

 

We survived 2014 and 2015. We survived 2019 and 2020, and we'll survive 2021 if necessary.

[moonslav59]

Personally, I'm fine with cleaning up after the party.

 

We survived 2014 and 2015. We survived 2019 and 2020, and we'll survive 2021 if necessary.

 

Yes, and you realize the cleaning up needs to be done before the next one starts.

[dgalehouse]

We started the clean up by getting rid of the life of the party.

[moonslav59]

We started the clean up by getting rid of the life of the party.

 

The mess was created and the clean up started before that.

[notin]

Personally, I'm fine with cleaning up after the party.

 

We survived 2014 and 2015. We survived 2019 and 2020, and we'll survive 2021 if necessary.

 

I’d rather go to the party every year, even if we always leave early...

[notin]

We started the clean up by getting rid of the life of the party.

 

We had no choice. He might have stayed, but our host DD gave all his snacks and refreshing beverages to some older pitchers...