Why was Mookie traded, exactly?

[Bellhorn04]

Even though Ben might have left the team with no pitching, he left the team with a top 3 farm system, along with a core of cost-controlled MLB players. So the moves that Dombrowski made for pitching were only possible because of the resources that were left by Ben, both prospects and money.

 

That's fair, but the fact is that Dombrowski had no choice but to trade prospects for pitching, yet he gets bashed for it. And he also gets bashed for going the other route and forking out the big dollars for Price.

 

In a sense, he was put into a no-win situation, just like Bloom was this year.

[moonslav59]

That's fair, but the fact is that Dombrowski had no choice but to trade prospects for pitching, yet he gets bashed for it. And he also gets bashed for going the other route and forking out the big dollars for Price.

 

In a sense, he was put into a no-win situation, just like Bloom was this year.

 

He was left with a solid foundation oif young stars and a farm fullof prospects other teams wanted badly enough to trade Sale, Kimbrel and others for.

 

What was Bloom left?

 

To me, it's not a close comp.

[Bellhorn04]

He was left with a solid foundation oif young stars and a farm fullof prospects other teams wanted badly enough to trade Sale, Kimbrel and others for.

 

What was Bloom left?

 

To me, it's not a close comp.

 

My point is this: DD had no choice but to trade prospects for pitching or sign a free agent like Price. And yet he gets bashed for both things by some people.

[notin]

My point is this: DD had no choice but to trade prospects for pitching or sign a free agent like Price. And yet he gets bashed for both things by some people.

 

The only good thing about Price's deal was DD did put in the opt out, which nearly every other player who ever received one had exercised. Had Price not gotten injured in his second season (or third, I suppose), he might have exercised it and not left Boston in the bad position they were in.

 

But then there was really no excuse for going crazy on Eovaldi's deal...

[mvp 78]

I can't agree that Ben only signed the good contracts and not the bad ones.

[moonslav59]

My point is this: DD had no choice but to trade prospects for pitching or sign a free agent like Price. And yet he gets bashed for both things by some people.

 

That's fair, and I actually think Ben was poised to trade prospects for pitching, too. I doubt he'd have gone to the same extreme, and I think the extremities is why DD is mostly criticized, but who is to say we didn't need Sale or Kimbrel to win that ring. We'll never know.

 

Ben made some horrible mistakes. Basically all of his biggest deals were flops: Pablo, HRam & Castillo.

 

DD's best deals were actually his smaller ones, although we remember him as going large. The Pearce, Eovaldi and other similar deals might have had more to do with us winning the actual 2018 ring than Sale & Kimbrel combined.

 

To me, both GMs had major faults while both getting us a ring. Ben's 3 last place finishes countered the much better farm he left DD than DD left Bloom. In some ways, they both balanced each other out but in very different ways.

[cp176]

That's fair, but the fact is that Dombrowski had no choice but to trade prospects for pitching, yet he gets bashed for it. And he also gets bashed for going the other route and forking out the big dollars for Price.

 

In a sense, he was put into a no-win situation, just like Bloom was this year.

 

I will be over the top ecstatic with Bloom when he deals with what has been the perennial achilles heal - the acquisition of young pitchers. I agree with you of course with respect to DD and his efforts to acquire what we needed on the pitching front. It is befuddling and seems very short sighted to me when i read people questioning whether or not he had to make all of the trades that he made in order for us to win. That is hind sight taken to the extreme. He did what he had to do. Now a new chapter begins and if the pitching pipeline that Bloom has dealt with in the past comes to Boston now I think that the future will be bright. His chapter in town remains too written.

[cp176]

That's fair, and I actually think Ben was poised to trade prospects for pitching, too. I doubt he'd have gone to the same extreme, and I think the extremities is why DD is mostly criticized, but who is to say we didn't need Sale or Kimbrel to win that ring. We'll never know.

 

Ben made some horrible mistakes. Basically all of his biggest deals were flops: Pablo, HRam & Castillo.

 

DD's best deals were actually his smaller ones, although we remember him as going large. The Pearce, Eovaldi and other similar deals might have had more to do with us winning the actual 2018 ring than Sale & Kimbrel combined.

 

To me, both GMs had major faults while both getting us a ring. Ben's 3 last place finishes countered the much better farm he left DD than DD left Bloom. In some ways, they both balanced each other out but in very different ways.

 

 

Those small scale deals were very good but for me Sale and Kimbrel were the types of players needed to win at the highest level. They were deals that were very much needed. I'm betting on Chris Sale's history in Boston not quite being over. He'll be back and he'll be good.

[Bellhorn04]

The only good thing about Price's deal was DD did put in the opt out, which nearly every other player who ever received one had exercised. Had Price not gotten injured in his second season (or third, I suppose), he might have exercised it and not left Boston in the bad position they were in.

 

As I posted earlier, the options to Price were:

 

Greinke

Cueto

J Zimmerman

 

I'm sure DD would have been showered in praise if he did one of those deals instead!

[moonslav59]

As I posted earlier, the options to Price were:

 

Greinke

Cueto

J Zimmerman

 

I'm sure DD would have been showered in praise if he did one of those deals instead!

 

The best what if was with Ben. Had he went for Scherzer instead of Pablo and HRam...

 

1. We'd not have signed Price.

2. We'd not have the two flop contracts.

3. We might have won 2 rings with DD or never dumped Ben.

Edited September 14, 2020 by moonslav59

[notin]

As I posted earlier, the options to Price were:

 

Greinke

Cueto

J Zimmerman

 

I'm sure DD would have been showered in praise if he did one of those deals instead!

 

There were only 4 free agents that year?

 

Even limiting just to free agency, there was Kenta Maeda, whose 10.6 fWAR exceeded Price's 10.2 fWAR in that same timeframe, and for a very small (~10%) fraction of the cost.

 

And really, JA Happ (10.1 fWAR) and Rich Hill (9.1 fWAR) were right behind Price.

 

Price was a big name and a PR splash. But it's actually OK for a GM to use other criteria for free agents...

[notin]

the best what if was with cherington. Had he went for scherzer instead of pablo and hram...

 

1. We'd not have signed price.

2. We'd not have the two flop contracts.

3. We might have won 2 rings with dd or never dumped ben.

 

 

ftfy

[Bellhorn04]

There were only 4 free agents that year?

 

Even limiting just to free agency, there was Kenta Maeda, whose 10.6 fWAR exceeded Price's 10.2 fWAR in that same timeframe, and for a very small (~10%) fraction of the cost.

 

And really, JA Happ (10.1 fWAR) and Rich Hill (9.1 fWAR) were right behind Price.

 

Price was a big name and a PR splash. But it's actually OK for a GM to use other criteria for free agents...

 

In hindsight, sure, those were great picks. But what about projected values at the time?

 

Most big contracts for pitchers are failures, we all know that.

 

Price seemed like one of the surer bets.

 

And he was rather important in the 2018 postseason.

[notin]

In hindsight, sure, those were great picks. But what about projected values at the time?

 

Most big contracts for pitchers are failures, we all know that.

 

Price seemed like one of the surer bets.

 

And he was rather important in the 2018 postseason.

 

What about them?

 

It's really what a good GM should do is anticipate the value over time of a pitcher/player. It looks like DD just went all in for the big name/splash and got what he was expecting, short term success and long term expenditure. He had to know this was the case, because it pretty much always is with long term contracts given to players on the wrong side of 30, and was probably hoping to circumvent it with the opt out.

 

But being part of a GM is having some sort of method of determining who will be the best value going forward, not basing everything on solely who was in the past. Do you think DD tried this?

 

Price seemed like a surer bet in the short term future. Do you think he as a sure bet for 7 years through age 38? If 12 years of a 28 year old player was too risky, per your criteria, why was 7 years of a 31yo player acceptable?

Edited September 14, 2020 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

Price seemed like a surer bet in the short term future. Do you think he as a sure bet for 7 years through age 38? If 12 years of a 28 year old player was too risky, per your criteria, why was 7 years of a 31yo player acceptable?

 

As I said in an earlier post, I think the Red Sox anticipated that Mookie would get something like $400 million. That is virtually double what Price got.

 

But you would need some sort of actuary to measure the relative risk of the two deals.

[Kimmi]

That's fair, but the fact is that Dombrowski had no choice but to trade prospects for pitching, yet he gets bashed for it. And he also gets bashed for going the other route and forking out the big dollars for Price.

 

In a sense, he was put into a no-win situation, just like Bloom was this year.

 

Yes, he had to make some moves for pitching. The problem, IMO, was the overkill. The overkill got off to a rocky start with the trade for Kimbrel.

[Kimmi]

I can't agree that Ben only signed the good contracts and not the bad ones.

 

Ben is 100% responsible for Castillo.

[Northern Star]

Now, someone who knows the details of the abandoned plan for a new stadium can step in with the facts, but on a basic level, if Henry was worried about losing money (and he won't when he cashes out) shouldn't that have made getting a stadium deal done even more essential?

[Northern Star]

Henry is right to get gunshy about these ridiculous, irresponsible contracts, but...he's in the wrong city to get gunshy about it.

[mvp 78]

Now, someone who knows the details of the abandoned plan for a new stadium can step in with the facts, but on a basic level, if Henry was worried about losing money (and he won't when he cashes out) shouldn't that have made getting a stadium deal done even more essential?

 

Depends on how much the state would cover.

[Bellhorn04]

Henry is right to get gunshy about these ridiculous, irresponsible contracts, but...he's in the wrong city to get gunshy about it.

 

So you're saying that if you own the Red Sox you're obliged to keep doing ridiculous contracts?

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, he had to make some moves for pitching. The problem, IMO, was the overkill. The overkill got off to a rocky start with the trade for Kimbrel.

 

DD gave up an incredible number of bodies, no question.

 

It still remains to have a final accounting of the actual future baseball value he gave up.

[notin]

Ben is 100% responsible for Castillo.

 

Ben can be responsible for signing Castillo, but the decisions that lead to keeping him in AAA seem to be a bit further reaching...

[notin]

DD gave up an incredible number of bodies, no question.

 

It still remains to have a final accounting of the actual future baseball value he gave up.

 

But that doesn’t mean it had no financial impact on the team while he was here...

[Bellhorn04]

Ben can be responsible for signing Castillo, but the decisions that lead to keeping him in AAA seem to be a bit further reaching...

 

That was all about the temporary loophole in the luxury tax rules and subsequent closure of the loophole.

 

If Castillo had been good enough to justify the tax cost, they would have promoted him.

[Bellhorn04]

But that doesn’t mean it had no financial impact on the team while he was here...

 

How big of an impact on the finances and the quality of the team are the questions.

[notin]

That was all about the temporary loophole in the luxury tax rules and subsequent closure of the loophole.

 

If Castillo had been good enough to justify the tax cost, they would have promoted him.

 

Well, according to a few articles about him in the minors, there was a feeling around the league of "Why is this guy still here?"

 

But his chances died with the hiring of Dombrowski, who was never a fan, and reportedly left Castillo's pre-signing tryout commenting he was, direct quote here, "a fourth outfielder at best."

 

He never got a fulll chance, but i don't think you will ever find a single person who pities him for it. A lot of people will never get a chance to play in MLB, but he is the only one paid $72 million to not play in MLB...

[notin]

How big of an impact on the finances and the quality of the team are the questions.

 

Not real sure, but potentially not insignificant.

 

For example, if the Sox had kept Margot, would they have paid Bradley over $20 million the past two years?

[mvp 78]

Well, according to a few articles about him in the minors, there was a feeling around the league of "Why is this guy still here?"

 

But his chances died with the hiring of Dombrowski, who was never a fan, and reportedly left Castillo's pre-signing tryout commenting he was, direct quote here, "a fourth outfielder at best."

 

He never got a fulll chance, but i don't think you will ever find a single person who pities him for it. A lot of people will never get a chance to play in MLB, but he is the only one paid $72 million to not play in MLB...

 

It'll be interesting to see if he signs next year or just retires.

[Bellhorn04]

Not real sure, but potentially not insignificant.

 

For example, if the Sox had kept Margot, would they have paid Bradley over $20 million the past two years?

 

That's certainly a valid one. How many others are there, though.