Red Sox close to deal with Kevin Pillar

[moonslav59]

In your opinion.

 

Are you saying you are not stating your opinions as irrefutable facts?

 

I guess we all come across like that, at times, maybe without meaning to. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

[Elktonnick]

Are you saying you are not stating your opinions as irrefutable facts?

 

I guess we all come across like that, at times, maybe without meaning to. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

 

Accepted

[Elktonnick]

I thought what you were bitching about was the team's attempts to be competitive.

 

What I am bitching about is Henry how misled his fans as 700 posted

[moonslav59]

Accepted

 

So,it's not a fact Verdugo is immoral?

[moonslav59]

What I am bitching about is Henry how misled his fans as 700 posted

 

Henry said many things- some sounding polar opposite of each other.

 

If some chose to believe what they wanted to believe and disregard the rest, then I can see why they are crying, now.

[S5Dewey]

JH as a businessman can run or ruin his business any way he wants. I as a fan can react the same, any way I want. The problem and hypocrisy on the part of JH is don' t tell me that you are trying to do your best to put a competitive team on the field to justify higher ticket prices etc when you clearly are not. Many very successful businesses have failed when they started taking their customers for granted. I believe Henry is beginning to do exactly that, taking his fans for granted.

 

Can we please get real for a minute? Even during last season there were a lot of rumblings about something having to be done about Mookie's contract and impending free agency. Everyone who didn't think something was going to happen wasn't being realistic.

Now, as to the issue of season ticket holders, the ethics of what you say depends on when the bills for the Season Tickets went out. JH made his famous "mandate-not-a-mandate' statement in September. If the bills went out before his statement I'll agree with you but if they went out afterward ST purchasers were given fair warning that the team could look much different in 2020. Anyone who purchased ST's after JH said that and didn't recognize the strong possibility that Mookie would not be with the team either wasn't using reasoning in their thoughts or believe(d) that this reset is good for the team in the long run.

 

And for the record, I was in favor of holding off until mid-season and see how things were going but at the same time I recognized that the return on Mookie mid-summer may(or may not) be as great as it would be now. It was a gamble I was willing to take but it's not my team or money.

[Bellhorn04]

Henry said many things- some sounding polar opposite of each other.

 

If some chose to believe what they wanted to believe and disregard the rest, then I can see why they are crying, now.

 

And what's funny is that Henry got slammed for every single thing he said, whether he said the re-set was coming or whether he said it might not be.

 

Just as with the DD firing he got slammed for saying next to nothing.

 

Red Sox media and fans have turned this kind of bitching into an art-form.

[a700hitter]

Since Henry bought the team they've had one of the highest payrolls every year.

 

And won 4 titles, more than any other team in the same time period.

 

How unethical!

They never lied to the fans like they did this season, and right after the season ticket renewal period passed, they dismantled the team and threw in the towel. I can’t remember them doing this in past years. Also, they usually didn’t have the chutzpah to raise ticket prices in years when they knew they would not try to compete. I was critical of Ben, but one thing doe which I always gave him high marks was his truthfulness. When he would say that he was happy with the pitching, others would say that he was playing his cards close to the vest, but I always took him at his word. He never lied to the fans. What was done this year really sucked. I don’t care if Bloom just carried the lie or was complicit in the lie. It is a big black mark against the organization.

[Elktonnick]

So,it's not a fact Verdugo is immoral?

 

I prefer amoral or morally challenged to be precise

[Elktonnick]

Can we please get real for a minute? Even during last season there were a lot of rumblings about something having to be done about Mookie's contract and impending free agency. Everyone who didn't think something was going to happen wasn't being realistic.

Now, as to the issue of season ticket holders, the ethics of what you say depends on when the bills for the Season Tickets went out. JH made his famous "mandate-not-a-mandate' statement in September. If the bills went out before his statement I'll agree with you but if they went out afterward ST purchasers were given fair warning that the team could look much different in 2020. Anyone who purchased ST's after JH said that and didn't recognize the strong possibility that Mookie would not be with the team either wasn't using reasoning in their thoughts or believe(d) that this reset is good for the team in the long run.

 

And for the record, I was in favor of holding off until mid-season and see how things were going but at the same time I recognized that the return on Mookie mid-summer may(or may not) be as great as it would be now. It was a gamble I was willing to take but it's not my team or money.

 

Caveat emptor eh?

[moonslav59]

Can we please get real for a minute? Even during last season there were a lot of rumblings about something having to be done about Mookie's contract and impending free agency. Everyone who didn't think something was going to happen wasn't being realistic.

Now, as to the issue of season ticket holders, the ethics of what you say depends on when the bills for the Season Tickets went out. JH made his famous "mandate-not-a-mandate' statement in September. If the bills went out before his statement I'll agree with you but if they went out afterward ST purchasers were given fair warning that the team could look much different in 2020. Anyone who purchased ST's after JH said that and didn't recognize the strong possibility that Mookie would not be with the team either wasn't using reasoning in their thoughts or believe(d) that this reset is good for the team in the long run.

 

And for the record, I was in favor of holding off until mid-season and see how things were going but at the same time I recognized that the return on Mookie mid-summer may(or may not) be as great as it would be now. It was a gamble I was willing to take but it's not my team or money.

 

The problem was dumping Price. Betts is not a salary dump, although many teams cannot afford him at $27M.

 

Waiting to July to dump Price would have been a huge risk, and any dump would be pro-rated on the budget.

 

Say we get someone to pay half his salary on July 31st. Half is actually one-third of half, because that's all that's left of the season. We'd save $5.3M on the lux tax for 2020 by trading half of Price's deal then.

 

Could we trade Price alone, this winter, and get $16M relief? I say, no, but several here think he's worth $16M x 3 or more. Even so, that alone would not be enough to reset, and we'd have done nothing to help the farm.

[a700hitter]

Can we please get real for a minute? Even during last season there were a lot of rumblings about something having to be done about Mookie's contract and impending free agency. Everyone who didn't think something was going to happen wasn't being realistic.

Now, as to the issue of season ticket holders, the ethics of what you say depends on when the bills for the Season Tickets went out. JH made his famous "mandate-not-a-mandate' statement in September. If the bills went out before his statement I'll agree with you but if they went out afterward ST purchasers were given fair warning that the team could look much different in 2020. Anyone who purchased ST's after JH said that and didn't recognize the strong possibility that Mookie would not be with the team either wasn't using reasoning in their thoughts or believe(d) that this reset is good for the team in the long run.

 

And for the record, I was in favor of holding off until mid-season and see how things were going but at the same time I recognized that the return on Mookie mid-summer may(or may not) be as great as it would be now. It was a gamble I was willing to take but it's not my team or money.

When Bloom was introduced they had a conference call with season ticket holders. Kennedy was also present. The ticket renewal period was still open. Bloom was asked directly about Betts, and after what has since transpired, it looks very much like he just lied to us with the nodding approval of top brass. He was also very optimistic about fielding a competitive squad in 2020. People can call it what they want but, based on the statements at that meeting, I was convinced that Betts would not be traded for financial reasons and that Bloom would have to be overwhelmed to trade Betts. I feel that he was very misleading.

[notin]

Here's what I don't understand about your position: As little as we like to acknowledge it baseball is a business to John Henry and he wants to make both short-term and long-term money on it. He's making long term money on it because AFAIK the franchise is worth literally millions more now than it was when he bought it, but that's like any 'investment'. You don't see the profits until you cash it out.

 

In the meantime he has expenses to meet. Expenses like.. salaries, stadium upkeep & improvements, scouting, I'm sure a myriad of things that we can't imagine and a big expense may be the LT. If he can cut his LT obligations he can reduce his overhead allowing him to either invest more in the team or make more short-term money. And don't let it get lost in this that we don't even have knowledge of whether he's making or losing short-term money with the Boston Red Sox or what his profit margin is.

 

The bottom line is that JH is a businessman and baseball is entertainment. He can do what he wants with his money and he has no obligation to provide a WSC team to the fans every year. I'm thankful that he's chosen to have the Boston Red Sox as one of his businesses/"toys" and we get to reap the benefits of it. If it ever reaches the point where the cost of what we're spending exceeds the entertainment we're getting we're free every years to spend less on this entertainment.

 

Let me ask, how would you feel if JH sent a letter to your home saying, "Elk, I've heard that you're thinking of cancelling your NESN subscription and have decided to not attend games this year. I believe you can afford to be a Red Sox fan so who do you think you are to walk away from this obligation to me?"

 

Not very good, huh? That's what's being said to him by his critics.

 

I don't think you have ever made a post I agree with more. This is just flat out spot on IMO. Better summary than I am capable of...

[Sox75]

Can we just get real here.

Yes! As a businessman in the sports / entertainment business, JH has to put out the best team possible, and TRY to win a WSC.

 

However, some here are talking as though they actually believe THIS RS season exists in a vacuum.

There have been no FOOLISH LT mega-contracts putting us in a hole (I wont list them all, as you all know them better than me).

 

JH bought a few championships, but the last in 2018 cost the most, short & LOOOONG term.

GOOD ON HIM for the 1st 3! EPIC!

We will remember this era for the rest of our lives.

 

Still, as a businessman, he realizes that for the good of the long term business, contracts must be cleared & the farm MUST BE replanted.

 

This ain't rocket science!

 

Now.... He's still in sports entertainment BUSINESS, and the SHOW must go on. They don't owe us s***.

They put out the best product POSSIBLE, given industry regulations, caps, and a closed & severely regulated hiring pool. They reached their break-even point, and HAD TO re-tool. Thank God they haven't considered moving us to Pennsylvania, or some lower tax state?

 

Hey! I HATE this trade! I HATE that we are letting perhaps our GREATEST PLAYER ever walk. BUT, this year's RS team has been forced into some exceptionally tough decisions because of the last 10 years of HORRIFIC long term deals.

 

Ironically, I think Mookie is the safest long term contract out there, & with future value of $380M - $400M would have been ok.

 

Anyway, Bottom line! JH is not operating in a vacuum! He owes fans a good - great product, or so many will vote with their feet. You can't have the #1 broadway show every year, EVEN IF you could buy all the best musical theater talent available, year after year, with no binding non-competition contracts.

 

They have a business to run, & they are digging the RS out of 2 spendthrift GM's who signed bad LT contract after LT contract. NOW... the piper must be paid.

 

Unfortunately..... Mookie is the sacrificial lamb.... THE ONLY ONE LEFT to bring some sort of ROI.

I think they blew it, but I get the effort.

 

btw.....

 

The Red Sox WILL re-sign Mookie next off-season

[Sox75]

Oh,

 

& as for JH "misleading" fans?

Come on now. We're not children. THEY ALL HAVE TO say those things! You can't ever say, "yeh! We're definitely dealing our superstar, and WILL go with the best offer."

 

The business simply doesn't work that way, and for good reason. It's a bad position to throw away your bargaining leverage to SAY, "Truth is, WE MUST DEAL our superstar to gain long term flexibility! We HAVE TO do this, so just give us the best you can afford."

 

Can we cut the s*** please!

What the F kind of bargaining position does that get you, when you broadcast that you are bargaining from a hole, & you WILL BREAK at some point?

 

Are you F'n kidding me?

 

So please! Let's stop with the, "I'm hurt because JH lied to me" millenial nonsense!

[moonslav59]

can we please get real for a minute? Even during last season there were a lot of rumblings about something having to be done about mookie's contract and impending free agency. Everyone who didn't think something was going to happen wasn't being realistic.

Now, as to the issue of season ticket holders, the ethics of what you say depends on when the bills for the season tickets went out. Jh made his famous "mandate-not-a-mandate' statement in september. If the bills went out before his statement i'll agree with you but if they went out afterward st purchasers were given fair warning that the team could look much different in 2020. Anyone who purchased st's after jh said that and didn't recognize the strong possibility that mookie would not be with the team either wasn't using reasoning in their thoughts or believe(d) that this reset is good for the team in the long run.

 

And for the record, i was in favor of holding off until mid-season and see how things were going but at the same time i recognized that the return on mookie mid-summer may(or may not) be as great as it would be now. It was a gamble i was willing to take but it's not my team or money.

 

bingo! ..

[moonslav59]

Great posts Sox 75.

[Larry Cook]

So please! Let's stop with the, "I'm hurt because JH lied to me" millenial nonsense!

 

When it comes to Henry, the biggest thing that concerns me is the bipolar thinking Lack of consistent strategy,

 

1.) we dump Theo. We hire Ben and henry says we need to start the process of building a minor league feeding system that can crank out quality players and with some free agent augmentation, we can build a sustainable program that can compete every year. We get lucky and win a World Series!

 

2.) two-three years into the rebuild, we have several last place finishes, but the number 1 ranked farm system in baseball.

 

3.) Henry nuts up from the pressure from several last place finishes and puts lucky Larry in charge of over seeing Ben. Lucky Larry signs some really bad contracts in an effort to speed up the rebuild. It fails. Lucky Larry is booted.

 

4.) Henry then changes direction and pulls the plug on the rebuild and boots Ben while hiring desperate Dave. Henry tells desperate Dave to win now. Desperate Dave guts the minor league system in trades. Desperate Dave gives out some huge contracts. Desperate Dave has the most expensive payroll in baseball. Desperate Dave runs off all the best and brightest from our baseball operations department and our analytics department.

 

5.) desperate Dave wins a World Series, but his scorched earth tactics has left us bereft of any talent in the front office and minor league system and we are left with huge contracts and many sore armed pitchers.

 

6.) Henry reverses course yet again and dumps desperate Dave and brings in hang’em Chaim. He gives hang’em Chaim an executive order, get under the salary cap and get a reset. Hang’em Chaim trades Betts and price! People get upset that we can be competitive in 2020.

 

Henry please pick a lane and strategy and stick to it!!!! Henry your bipolar decease is treatable!

[Nick]

When it comes to Henry, the biggest thing that concerns me is the bipolar thinking Lack of consistent strategy,

 

1.) we dump Theo. We hire Ben and henry says we need to start the process of building a minor league feeding system that can crank out quality players and with some free agent augmentation, we can build a sustainable program that can compete every year. We get lucky and win a World Series!

 

2.) two-three years into the rebuild, we have several last place finishes, but the number 1 ranked farm system in baseball.

 

3.) Henry nuts up from the pressure from several last place finishes and puts lucky Larry in charge of over seeing Ben. Lucky Larry signs some really bad contracts in an effort to speed up the rebuild. It fails. Lucky Larry is booted.

 

4.) Henry then changes direction and pulls the plug on the rebuild and boots Ben while hiring desperate Dave. Henry tells desperate Dave to win now. Desperate Dave guts the minor league system in trades. Desperate Dave gives out some huge contracts. Desperate Dave has the most expensive payroll in baseball. Desperate Dave runs off all the best and brightest from our baseball operations department and our analytics department.

 

5.) desperate Dave wins a World Series, but his scorched earth tactics has left us bereft of any talent in the front office and minor league system and we are left with huge contracts and many sore armed pitchers.

 

6.) Henry reverses course yet again and dumps desperate Dave and brings in hang’em Chaim. He gives hang’em Chaim an executive order, get under the salary cap and get a reset. Hang’em Chaim trades Betts and price! People get upset that we can be competitive in 2020.

 

Henry please pick a lane and strategy and stick to it!!!! Henry your bipolar decease is treatable!

 

Tell me again what traded players would start over the players that we acuired?

 

Give it some thought....I would do the Sale trade 100 out of 100 times so spare me the Moncada sob story.

[Larry Cook]

Tell me again what what traded players would start over the players that we acuired?

 

Give it some thought....I would do the Sale trade 100 out of 100 times so spare me the Moncada sob story.

 

Who said anything about moncada?

[moonslav59]

When it comes to Henry, the biggest thing that concerns me is the bipolar thinking Lack of consistent strategy,

 

1.) we dump Theo. We hire Ben and henry says we need to start the process of building a minor league feeding system that can crank out quality players and with some free agent augmentation, we can build a sustainable program that can compete every year. We get lucky and win a World Series!

 

2.) two-three years into the rebuild, we have several last place finishes, but the number 1 ranked farm system in baseball.

 

3.) Henry nuts up from the pressure from several last place finishes and puts lucky Larry in charge of over seeing Ben. Lucky Larry signs some really bad contracts in an effort to speed up the rebuild. It fails. Lucky Larry is booted.

 

4.) Henry then changes direction and pulls the plug on the rebuild and boots Ben while hiring desperate Dave. Henry tells desperate Dave to win now. Desperate Dave guts the minor league system in trades. Desperate Dave gives out some huge contracts. Desperate Dave has the most expensive payroll in baseball. Desperate Dave runs off all the best and brightest from our baseball operations department and our analytics department.

 

5.) desperate Dave wins a World Series, but his scorched earth tactics has left us bereft of any talent in the front office and minor league system and we are left with huge contracts and many sore armed pitchers.

 

6.) Henry reverses course yet again and dumps desperate Dave and brings in hang’em Chaim. He gives hang’em Chaim an executive order, get under the salary cap and get a reset. Hang’em Chaim trades Betts and price! People get upset that we can be competitive in 2020.

 

Henry please pick a lane and strategy and stick to it!!!! Henry your bipolar decease is treatable!

 

I don't question any of the GM moves all that much. At each point a change was made, a different direction seemed like a valid option.

 

Of all the changes made, I like the DD to Bloom change the most. Of course, the jury is out, but I'm talking about "at the time of the change."

 

Most liked (in order):

1. DD to Bloom

2. Theo to Ben

3. Ben to DD.

[notin]

Tell me again what traded players would start over the players that we acuired?

 

Give it some thought....I would do the Sale trade 100 out of 100 times so spare me the Moncada sob story.

 

We all liked the title, but let’s also not pretend that Logan Allen or Michael Kopech wouldn’t be useful now, either. Or Margot over Pillar.

 

And am I interpreting this to mean you think Peraza and Lin are a better 2b solution than Moncada.

 

It’s ok to stand by the trades. There is an extremely good reason to like them - namely 2018. But that doesn’t mean that you have to suddenly decide that everyone we gave up suddenly has to be labeled as flops and never had any potential use in Boston...

[moonslav59]

Tell me again what traded players would start over the players that we acuired?

 

Give it some thought....I would do the Sale trade 100 out of 100 times so spare me the Moncada sob story.

 

I thought DD went overboard, but it's all good with the shiny ring, but since you asked, I'll take these deals back...

 

Dubon & Shaw for Thornburg

Ty Buttrey for Kinsler

Espinoza for Pomeranz

 

Plus,many of us were not about keeping all of these prospects. We were about packaging many of them differently for better returns, and the sheer volume of prospects traded away.

 

Would we still have a ring without Kimbrel or Sale? We'll never know.

 

Without Pom, Thornburg and Kinsler? Probably yes?

 

[S5Dewey]

I don't think you have ever made a post I agree with more.

 

Thanks, but at the same time that's a pretty low bar!

[moonslav59]

Thanks, but at the same time that's a pretty low bar!

 

LOL.

 

Your posts are always top notch, even if I disagree, at times.

[a700hitter]

Oh,

 

& as for JH "misleading" fans?

Come on now. We're not children. THEY ALL HAVE TO say those things! You can't ever say, "yeh! We're definitely dealing our superstar, and WILL go with the best offer."

 

The business simply doesn't work that way, and for good reason. It's a bad position to throw away your bargaining leverage to SAY, "Truth is, WE MUST DEAL our superstar to gain long term flexibility! We HAVE TO do this, so just give us the best you can afford."

 

Can we cut the s*** please!

What the F kind of bargaining position does that get you, when you broadcast that you are bargaining from a hole, & you WILL BREAK at some point?

 

Are you F'n kidding me?

 

So please! Let's stop with the, "I'm hurt because JH lied to me" millenial nonsense!

Do you know how much season tickets cost? I am not a millennial, and I don't think any business person should lie to a customer's face as he is telling him why he should shell out $10 k for tickets. Sorry, that is not right. If they wanted to move Mookie and they said that was a possibility, I would have made an informed decision.

[a700hitter]

 

The Red Sox WILL re-sign Mookie next off-season

Sig bet that they don't

[Sox75]

Do you know how much season tickets cost? I am not a millennial, and I don't think any business person should lie to a customer's face as he is telling him why he should shell out $10 k for tickets. Sorry, that is not right. If they wanted to move Mookie and they said that was a possibility, I would have made an informed decision.

 

Actually wasn't referring to you at all!

I respect your perspectives, & always have.

 

LOL :0

 

Granted, it was a total throwaway line.... it just felt right with the totality of the discussion. An obligatory swipe at the generation that can school us on many a thing....

 

Again, LOL :0

 

I just enjoy triggering them because they're so much god dambed smarter.

 

Anyway.... All my other points stand! Not because I'm smart, I'm just almost always right.

 

[Elktonnick]

Do you know how much season tickets cost? I am not a millennial, and I don't think any business person should lie to a customer's face as he is telling him why he should shell out $10 k for tickets. Sorry, that is not right. If they wanted to move Mookie and they said that was a possibility, I would have made an informed decision.

Red Sox Sam Kennedy told NBC Sports that Sox ticket sales are down 6% from last year. That data was really before the full impact of the Betts Price trade has been felt. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 10% decline this year and next from the 2019 attendance totals. The secondary market will take the biggest hits.

[notin]

Sig bet that they don't

 

I’d bet they try to, but I am not going to bet on some insane GM from a team that rhymes with Blue Pork Vets throwing around ungodly sums of money that pay Mookie well into the next ice age...