Mookie Betts and David Price have been traded to Dodgers

[Bellhorn04]

Not to mention counting the arbitration salaries of Betts, Bradley, etc. as “not from DD” just because the players were already there is really not true…

 

What part isn't true?

[moonslav59]

I don't really see anything in this post that a few weeks in a "Reading Comprehension" course or maybe 8 months in therapy shouldn't solve.

 

Great. I’d recommend you starting on Monday.

[Bellhorn04]

Reading what Mookie said, he was surprised by the trade. He had still expected to sign with Boston. Bloom made the trade, so he has to be answerable for it. If Henry ordered him to trade Mookie, then Henry should own up to it and take the heat off Bloom.

 

This was posted a few pages back:

 

"In today's game, there's a cost to losing a great player in free agency, one that cannot nearly be made up by the draft pick given," Henry said. "We've seen examples of this recently. We at the Red Sox will remember this as one of the toughest, one of the most difficult decisions we've ever had to make. ... We felt we could not sit on our hands and lose him this offseason without getting value in return to help us on our path forward. We carefully considered the alternative over the last year and made a decision when this opportunity presented itself to acquire substantial young talent for the years ahead."

 

When asked if there was anything the team could have done to prevent the circumstances that led to the Betts trade, Henry kept his answer short.

 

"Yes," Henry said. "We could've signed him to a long-term contract, but short of that, I'm not sure what the answer is."

[Bellhorn04]

Oh he absolutely likes overpaying. But if you can find the Sox Sign David Price in these board archives and waste precious life moments re-reading it, you’ll find one poster wishing he’d extended Betts instead of signing Price (and also hoping at a minimum, Price stayed healthy for 3 years and opted out)…

 

The Red Sox had a window of opportunity in front of them thanks to players like Betts and Bogaerts, but they had zero top of the line pitching. To me signing Price was a logical move. Like many Sox fans, I didn't even like Price much, but his track record was solid.

 

I'm not sure where DD was supposed to get top of the line starters without a big free agent signing like Price or a big trade like Sale.

[Bellhorn04]

So in his own words, Henry said they decided to trade Mookie because they didn't want to lose him to free agency and get nothing back except a draft pick of questionable value.

[moonslav59]

The only way you can blame DD for not locking him up earlier is if you think DD had a lot of say in the size of the offers that were made. To me that's less likely than that Henry was the one determining that.

 

Nobody likes paying/overpaying elite talent more than DD.

 

I'm not sure DD argued with JH about who should get the biggest offer: Betts, Sale or Bogey, of if extending all of them was a better choice than signing Price.

 

I don't think the cost of locking up Betts in 2017 or earlier would have been so drastic, JH would say no.

 

I think it was an either or situation with a somewhat set amount of money being given to DD to sign and extend the players he felt were worth it. I'm not sure, if it was more about the feeling that Betts was not going to settle for what DD felt he was worth, of what, do I don't like blaming anyone without knowing all the ins and outs, but I'm pretty damn certain, Bloom is not to blame for the whole Betts situation, and it was not the "stamp" he wanted to put on the franchise in his name.

[Bellhorn04]

The fact that Mookie is denying a 10 year/$300 million offer was ever made is kind of interesting...we've been hanging our hats on that for years now!

 

And Mookie also basically said if you want more info on the contract negotiations, you know who to ask. And he did mention Bloom's name along with Henry's. Maybe they made him an offer in the 2019-2020 offseason before trading him. That would help explain why the trade wasn't made until February.

[Bellhorn04]

Mookie's remarks certainly lean heavily toward the idea that he wanted to stay in Boston and thought it would happen.

[moonslav59]

Mookie's remarks certainly lean heavily toward the idea that he wanted to stay in Boston and thought it would happen.

 

He's much more easier to believe, but he has also never said what the lowest number he'd have taken, so "wanting to play in Boston" for $400M might not carry much weight in this debate.

 

We just don't know the whole picture.

[Jasonbay44]

Can’t believe Mookie is killing the Sox again! At least Chaim sent him West so he’ll only kill the Sox 3 times a year!

[cp176]

I’m not putting it solely on Henry’s hands. I think Dombrowski is somewhat accountable for building a $240mill 84-win team that seemed to put the brakes on spending and for not locking Betts up much earlier…

 

Of course you are going to find a way to blame DD. What would you do without him?

[notin]

The Red Sox had a window of opportunity in front of them thanks to players like Betts and Bogaerts, but they had zero top of the line pitching. To me signing Price was a logical move. Like many Sox fans, I didn't even like Price much, but his track record was solid.

 

I'm not sure where DD was supposed to get top of the line starters without a big free agent signing like Price or a big trade like Sale.

 

Was Price really worth 7 years $217mill thru age 38?

 

At the time he had one season north of 3 bWAR since 2012. For reference, that’s the same number of seasons as a Brayan Bello…

[notin]

Of course you are going to find a way to blame DD. What would you do without him?

 

Well, from when DD was hired things played EXACTLY as I said they would. It wasn’t hard to see coming, except for those who liked to turn their heads.

 

I mean, was Betts a generational talent or not? Did DD lock him up? Why do you give him a pass there? I mean, except for the obvious reason that you gave him a pass for everything.

 

By the time Bloom came on board, it was too late to do anything but trade Betts…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Well, from when DD was hired things played EXACTLY as I said they would. It wasn’t hard to see coming, except for those who liked to turn their heads.

 

I mean, was Betts a generational talent or not? Did DD lock him up? Why do you give him a pass there? I mean, except for the obvious reason that you gave him a pass for everything.

 

By the time Bloom came on board, it was too late to do anything but trade Betts…

 

Few Red Sox fans will ever believe that, especially after what Mookie has been saying in Boston this weekend.

 

It wasn't too late to keep negotiating and ultimately just pay the man -- like LA did in the summer of '20.

 

As for Price, forget the numbers and just ask: was he really worth the top of the market salary for pitchers? It's arguable: he was coming off a season where he was second in Cy Young voting (his second second, along with one Cy of his own). I never liked him nor wanted him -- he led the AL in ERA and IP, but also whining at Red Sox batters who took him deep, and longest delivery times in MLB history tracked by a sun dial.

[Bellhorn04]

Was Price really worth 7 years $217mill thru age 38?

 

At the time he had one season north of 3 bWAR since 2012. For reference, that’s the same number of seasons as a Brayan Bello…

 

Totally wrong.

 

2014 bWAR 4.4

2015 bWAR 6.3

 

You forgot to add the WAR's of the two teams he played for in each year.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, from when DD was hired things played EXACTLY as I said they would. It wasn’t hard to see coming, except for those who liked to turn their heads.

 

I mean, was Betts a generational talent or not? Did DD lock him up? Why do you give him a pass there?

 

I give DD a pass for the same reason I give Bloom a pass: they can only offer what they're authorized to offer. They don't sign the cheques.

[notin]

Totally wrong.

 

2014 bWAR 4.4

2015 bWAR 6.3

 

You forgot to add the WAR's of the two teams he played for in each year.

 

I did. Oops. Tried to speak your language.

 

Of course my gripes at the time about Price were that he was already 31 years old with 1,440 IP under his belt, and not very likely to get better or maintain performance and health over the next 7 years…

Edited August 27, 2023 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

I did. Oops…

 

No wonder you've been so skeptical of the signing all this time.

[notin]

I give DD a pass for the same reason I give Bloom a pass: they can only offer what they're authorized to offer. They don't sign the cheques.

 

DD and Cherington (whom I unfairly omit from my “Things That Stopped Henry From Spending” list) both seemed to have more financial free rein than Bloom. Granted, I don’t know how Henry feels about bad one year deals, but I have my doubts he hates them more than the deals given to Sandoval, Rusney, Price, etc…

[moonslav59]

Few Red Sox fans will ever believe that, especially after what Mookie has been saying in Boston this weekend.

 

It wasn't too late to keep negotiating and ultimately just pay the man -- like LA did in the summer of '20.

 

As for Price, forget the numbers and just ask: was he really worth the top of the market salary for pitchers? It's arguable: he was coming off a season where he was second in Cy Young voting (his second second, along with one Cy of his own). I never liked him nor wanted him -- he led the AL in ERA and IP, but also whining at Red Sox batters who took him deep, and longest delivery times in MLB history tracked by a sun dial.

 

No pitcher had a better resume than Price, at the time of his signing. Scherzer, the year before was about the same.

 

It was "too late to do anything but trade Betts" 100%, because JH made up his mind. He was already cutting back after 2018. We can all say, "He's a rich Mother ef'er and can do anything," but that does not mean he was going to do it.

 

Bloom was given no opportunity to extend Betts. I believe that 100%. It can't be proven beyond a doubt, but I'm 100% certain.

[moonslav59]

Totally wrong.

 

2014 bWAR 4.4

2015 bWAR 6.3

 

You forgot to add the WAR's of the two teams he played for in each year.

 

His fWAR screamed of consistency. His IP screamed of durability. You can't get much better of a track record prior to a major signing than Price had.

 

2015: 6.7 FWAR/ 220 IP

2014: 5.6 fWAR/ 248 IP (unheard of, now)

2013: 4.0 fWAR/ 187

2012: 4.3 fWAR/ 211

2011: 4.8 fWAR/ 224

2010: 4.3 fWAR/ 209

 

We all know the year was too long, but that's what you have to do to get "the best."

 

As it turned out, we got less good years than we thought, and the 75 IP in year 2 hurt badly.

2.5/176 & 2.3/107 in years 3 & 4 fell way short of hopes, too.

 

The choice to dump him as part of the Betts deal was not the ending we had hoped for either. That deal really hurt us, badly. (I was for it, at the time.)

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

DD and Cherington (whom I unfairly omit from my “Things That Stopped Henry From Spending” list) both seemed to have more financial free rein than Bloom. Granted, I don’t know how Henry feels about bad one year deals, but I have my doubts he hates them more than the deals given to Sandoval, Rusney, Price, etc…

 

And now Bloom has 3 paydays under his belt totalling about $550 million...

[Bellhorn04]

Bloom was given no opportunity to extend Betts. I believe that 100%. It can't be proven beyond a doubt, but I'm 100% certain.

 

But it's interesting the Betts trade talk didn't start until so late. Usually to get maximum value you start early in the offseason.

[moonslav59]

But it's interesting the Betts trade talk didn't start until so late. Usually to get maximum value you start early in the offseason.

 

They thought they could win in 2019.

[moonslav59]

And now Bloom has 3 paydays under his belt totalling about $550 million...

 

...and some posters seem to dislike all 3.

[Bellhorn04]

...and some posters seem to dislike all 3.

 

Yep. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It can't be proven beyond a doubt, but I'm 100% certain.

 

No wiser words were ever posted about speculation...

 

... unless you're actually Bloom posting under a pseudomoon (for example: Duvalls hot again, and a big reason the Sox are hanging in there... but does Bloom really need any praise for signing a guy who recently led the NL in RBI? The CBO of large-market Boston had better replace his 3-4 batters who depart to free agency).

[cp176]

Well, from when DD was hired things played EXACTLY as I said they would. It wasn’t hard to see coming, except for those who liked to turn their heads.

 

I mean, was Betts a generational talent or not? Did DD lock him up? Why do you give him a pass there? I mean, except for the obvious reason that you gave him a pass for everything.

 

By the time Bloom came on board, it was too late to do anything but trade Betts…

 

Oh come on now notin, I'm agreeing with you - dd was obviously the worst thing that could have happened to the franchise. But I will add that it might be time to move on. I don't think that DD cares too much about what you or the other 2 or 3 people here who feel like you do think. We have all heard you.

[moonslav59]

Yep. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

The Devers extension has not even started.

 

Yoshida is slumping for 3 weeks.

 

Story has missed most of his first 2 years of his deal.

 

It does look like the big signings are not Bloom's strong suit, but the jury is still out on all of these deals.

 

I will say, Story is a real athlete and a great defender at a position of great importance, so if he can stay healthy, just his glove alone will be helpful. (His bat needs to earn the money, however.)

 

The Yoshida deal has a long way to go, and he's not getting younger. He will need to earn that money at DH.

 

Wherever Devers ends up playing, he needs to rake.

[moonslav59]

Oh come on now notin, I'm agreeing with you - dd was obviously the worst thing that could have happened to the franchise. But I will add that it might be time to move on. I don't think that DD cares too much about what you or the other 2 or 3 people here who feel like you do think. We have all heard you.

 

Strawman, strawman.