Bloom move your asssssss

[Swiharts Ghost]

Like yaz rest is kinda garbage though .

[oldtimer]

Here's the rub,to me: the whole we can still be competitive in 2020 mantra has been based on the (slim) hopes that Sale,Price and Eovaldi all return to form. It's hard to build a case for us being competitive without a healthy Price, Eovaldi and JBJ.

 

I guess it might depend on what we get back in return (shouldn't be much) plus who we can sign with the savings, but it seems like playing it "halfway" could be the worst option. "Could be."

 

I'm really torn on what path to take. One day I feel like we should trade 5 guys (Betts, JBJ, Price, Eovaldi& JD), but the next day I'm thinking just JBJ and wait to July. I kind of feel like it should be one or five not 2-4 players dealt.

 

The moves you want to make should keep in mind the current reality of the situation. My thinking is that we might be somewhat competitive with the current team but the starting pitching is not and will not be good enough to give us a chance of winning it all. Because of this I believe Bloom should structure any trades and or acquisitions such that we get more competitive in 2021 and beyond. If we can unload big contracts and put us under the Tax threshold then it would enhance of drafting capabilities. We should definitely look at acquiring prospects when we trade some of our big contracts. If the likelihood of keeping Betts is slim, then he might be a candidate to move at the trade deadline. A club perceiving themselves as one step away from WS quality might be willing to invest prospects for him at that time. I have faith that Bloom is smart enough and experience enough to follow a plan and return the club to the top competitive bracket, but it might take 2 or 3 years.

[moonslav59]

Like yaz rest is kinda garbage though .

 

It's supposed to be garbage: we're dumping Eovaldi.

 

The ides is to gain some budget space to add more depth.

[moonslav59]

The moves you want to make should keep in mind the current reality of the situation. My thinking is that we might be somewhat competitive with the current team but the starting pitching is not and will not be good enough to give us a chance of winning it all. Because of this I believe Bloom should structure any trades and or acquisitions such that we get more competitive in 2021 and beyond. If we can unload big contracts and put us under the Tax threshold then it would enhance of drafting capabilities. We should definitely look at acquiring prospects when we trade some of our big contracts. If the likelihood of keeping Betts is slim, then he might be a candidate to move at the trade deadline. A club perceiving themselves as one step away from WS quality might be willing to invest prospects for him at that time. I have faith that Bloom is smart enough and experience enough to follow a plan and return the club to the top competitive bracket, but it might take 2 or 3 years.

 

Also, assuming we trade Betts & others, the better we position ourselves for 2021 and beyond, the more likely Betts might want to come back. If we go for broke in 2020, come up short, and have nothing to show by not trading anyone, we'll be in sad shape for 2021 and attracting Betts to return might be more diffficult. Of course, if we out bid everyone, that should be enough, regardless.

 

[Swiharts Ghost]

It's supposed to be garbage: we're dumping Eovaldi.

 

The ides is to gain some budget space to add more depth.

 

Yes ok get that .

[Swiharts Ghost]

.Bloom in negotiations with Porkchops agent per MLB trade rumors....we have movement .

[moonslav59]

.Bloom in negotiations with Porkchops agent per MLB trade rumors....we have movement .

 

That's a movement that should be avoided.

 

Movement for the sake of movement is not a good thing.

[Swiharts Ghost]

That's a movement that should be avoided.

 

Movement for the sake of movement is not a good thing.

 

Depedepending on how our staff is utilized .

[moonslav59]

Depedepending on how our staff is utilized .

 

I can't see any scenario where bringing Porcello back makes any sense.

[Larry Cook]

I can't see any scenario where bringing Porcello back makes any sense.

 

Amen brother! I could not agree more.

 

We need to move Martinez and price. Then bring in two starting other pitchers neither of which is named Porcello.

[Swiharts Ghost]

Don't get the hate for a number 4 or 5 starter .

[notin]

Amen brother! I could not agree more.

 

We need to move Martinez and price. Then bring in two starting other pitchers neither of which is named Porcello.

 

And those pitchers should be better and cheaper than Porcello, right?

 

So trade for one with our glut of expendable farm pieces aka Dalbec? And then sign Clay Buchholz?

[moonslav59]

Don't get the hate for a number 4 or 5 starter .

 

It's not a winning strategy to sign 4-5 slot starters.

 

We can't afford Porcello.

 

I'd love to have him back, but we might not even be able to offer $3-4M, unless we deal away more than just JBJ.

[Bellhorn04]

It's not a winning strategy to sign 4-5 slot starters.

 

We can't afford Porcello.

 

I'd love to have him back, but we might not even be able to offer $3-4M, unless we deal away more than just JBJ.

 

Assuming the rumor is accurate, the fact they're even talking to Porcello is sort of interesting.

 

At the moment the Red Sox seem to be in kind of a holding pattern...possibly trying to consummate a trade for Price or Eovaldi. In the meantime some of the cheaper starting pitching options are coming off the board.

[vegasbob]

This winter meetings may start to break the logjam and produce a few deals across MLB that sharpens the pencil on relative values and more specifically the Sox oxymoronic goal of lowering the payroll to $208MM ( or near), and the need to keep a competitive team on the field.

Were the Sox competitive last year with 84 wins , after losing major time to starting pitching injuries , but never exceeding a 6 win streak ? Competitive, yes, but with some major challenges starting with the scheduling in March/early April following a "hangover ST.

 

In retrospect, 2019 just didn't set up in any way for the Red Sox to make a repeat run. This off season is challenging due to the budget, Betts and JBJr questions, and the arm conditions of the 3 starters. Also starting the roster building with questions at 2B, 1B and backup catcher. Mr. Bloom has dived into the deep end of talent pool.

[moonslav59]

Assuming the rumor is accurate, the fact they're even talking to Porcello is sort of interesting.

 

At the moment the Red Sox seem to be in kind of a holding pattern...possibly trying to consummate a trade for Price or Eovaldi. In the meantime some of the cheaper starting pitching options are coming off the board.

 

Maybe they told Rick, we might make an offer, if we are able to dump price or Eovalid.

 

I still would not spend over $10M on Porcello, even if we dumped both. I can see maybe a 1 year deal to bridge us to 2021, so Rick can eat 200 innings in 2020, but guys like Roark and Teheran are horses, too, and may cost less.

[harmony]

Maybe they told Rick, we might make an offer, if we are able to dump price or Eovalid.

 

I still would not spend over $10M on Porcello, even if we dumped both. I can see maybe a 1 year deal to bridge us to 2021, so Rick can eat 200 innings in 2020, but guys like Roark and Teheran are horses, too, and may cost less.

Steamer projects 2020 WAR of 0.5 in 165 innings for Julio Teheran, 1.6 in 174 innings for Tanner Roark and 1.9 in 182 innings for Rick Porcello:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2717&position=P

 

MLB Trade Rumors projects two-year, $18 million contracts for Teheran and Roark while projecting a one-year, $11 million contract for Porcello:

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/11/mlb-free-agent-predictions-2020.html

 

Pick your poison.

Edited December 9, 2019 by harmony

[moonslav59]

Steamer projects 2020 WAR of 0.5 in 165 innings for Juiio Teheran, 1.6 in 174 innings for Tanner Roark and 1.9 in 182 innings for Rick Porcello:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2717&position=P

 

MLB Trade Rumors projects two-year, $18 million contracts for Teheran and Roark while projecting a one-year, $11 million contract for Porcello:

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/11/mlb-free-agent-predictions-2020.html

 

Pick your poison.

 

I'd take Roark or Teheran over Porcello, but they may be too high-priced as well.

[S5Dewey]

It's not a winning strategy to sign 4-5 slot starters.

 

We can't afford Porcello.

 

I'd love to have him back, but we might not even be able to offer $3-4M, unless we deal away more than just JBJ.

 

Ok.. let me follow this...

 

1) Our #1 pitcher is suspect because of arm/elbow/shoulder problems that have limited his innings.

 

2) We should trade our #2 and/or our #3 pitchers to save money.

 

3) We can't afford to sign a #1 or #2 pitcher because of financial constraints

 

4) It's not a winning strategy to sign #4 & #5 slot starters. We should instead build from the top down, which we've already determined that we can't afford to do if we're going to stay near the LT limit.

 

IMHO we should start the season with a pitching staff (!) and yet there is no good and viable way to build one. Looks like we're screwed! How about having an eight man rotation and having a different position player start every game?

 

My point is that the hand-wringing that's going on here is beyond belief. We've identified everything that we believe won't work - and according to us it's everything.

 

IMHO this team should bite the bullet and go with what worked in 2018 but didn't work in 2019 due mostly to injuries. Trade JBJ if it'll make you feel better but replace him with a decent CF'er, someone not named Benintendi. You may not like ll of this but it's a better option that what we're discussing now.

[Nick]

Ok.. let me follow this...

 

1) Our #1 pitcher is suspect because of arm/elbow/shoulder problems that have limited his innings.

 

2) We should trade our #2 and/or our #3 pitchers to save money.

 

3) We can't afford to sign a #1 or #2 pitcher because of financial constraints

 

4) It's not a winning strategy to sign #4 & #5 slot starters. We should instead build from the top down, which we've already determined that we can't afford to do if we're going to stay near the LT limit.

 

IMHO we should start the season with a pitching staff (!) and yet there is no good and viable way to build one. Looks like we're screwed! How about having an eight man rotation and having a different position player start every game?

 

My point is that the hand-wringing that's going on here is beyond belief. We've identified everything that we believe won't work - and according to us it's everything.

 

IMHO this team should bite the bullet and go with what worked in 2018 but didn't work in 2019 due mostly to injuries. Trade JBJ if it'll make you feel better but replace him with a decent CF'er, someone not named Benintendi. You may not like ll of this but it's a better option that what we're discussing now.

 

Yep....we're only $10M over right now. We can get rid of players in July to get under the cap if the team is going south. Luxury tax is not determined on opening day. Someone will bite on Betts then.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Nick

[moonslav59]

Ok.. let me follow this...

 

1) Our #1 pitcher is suspect because of arm/elbow/shoulder problems that have limited his innings.

 

2) We should trade our #2 and/or our #3 pitchers to save money.

 

3) We can't afford to sign a #1 or #2 pitcher because of financial constraints

 

4) It's not a winning strategy to sign #4 & #5 slot starters. We should instead build from the top down, which we've already determined that we can't afford to do if we're going to stay near the LT limit.

 

IMHO we should start the season with a pitching staff (!) and yet there is no good and viable way to build one. Looks like we're screwed! How about having an eight man rotation and having a different position player start every game?

 

My point is that the hand-wringing that's going on here is beyond belief. We've identified everything that we believe won't work - and according to us it's everything.

 

IMHO this team should bite the bullet and go with what worked in 2018 but didn't work in 2019 due mostly to injuries. Trade JBJ if it'll make you feel better but replace him with a decent CF'er, someone not named Benintendi. You may not like ll of this but it's a better option that what we're discussing now.

 

It's all about a reset or not.

 

If we chose to reset, we can wait until July to decide on a few players.

 

If we want to do something, this winter, I'd start by trading JBJ and Price and or Eovaldi.

 

Take the money saved to fill some holes. Look for cheap bridge players, but maybe try to find a few gems in the rough, something Bloom is known for.

 

Yes, that would mean signing a # 4 and a #5, something I said is not the way to build, but with limited budget issues, you do what you have to do.

 

We might try to score 1-2 players that look to help beyond 2020, but the rest would likely be 1 year deals to bridge to 2021, when presumably, we can go back over the tax line.

 

The cliff is here. Maybe it won't be as bad as a "cliff" sounds like, buy if we reset, I'm not counting on a contending team, so all my points about how to build a contender for next year are moot.

 

Normally, I'm all for building up the rotation from the top, but that can't happen this winter unless we dump a hell of a lot of salary, first.

[Bellhorn04]

I'd take Roark or Teheran over Porcello, but they may be too high-priced as well.

 

All starting pitchers are too expensive LOL

[cp176]

Ok.. let me follow this...

 

1) Our #1 pitcher is suspect because of arm/elbow/shoulder problems that have limited his innings.

 

2) We should trade our #2 and/or our #3 pitchers to save money.

 

3) We can't afford to sign a #1 or #2 pitcher because of financial constraints

 

4) It's not a winning strategy to sign #4 & #5 slot starters. We should instead build from the top down, which we've already determined that we can't afford to do if we're going to stay near the LT limit.

 

IMHO we should start the season with a pitching staff (!) and yet there is no good and viable way to build one. Looks like we're screwed! How about having an eight man rotation and having a different position player start every game?

 

My point is that the hand-wringing that's going on here is beyond belief. We've identified everything that we believe won't work - and according to us it's everything.

 

IMHO this team should bite the bullet and go with what worked in 2018 but didn't work in 2019 due mostly to injuries. Trade JBJ if it'll make you feel better but replace him with a decent CF'er, someone not named Benintendi. You may not like ll of this but it's a better option that what we're discussing now.

 

My feelings exactly.

[moonslav59]

Some of us have come up with suggestions we think will/could work.

 

They may be pie-in-the-sky, but something similar might work.

 

No plan is going to have us reset AND look to be highly competitive in 2020.

 

The most likely plan will be to try and look somewhat competitive in 2020 to keep the fan base interested while looking towards making the team better positioned for 2021 and beyond. That won't be easy, but freeing up some money by trading Price (maybe for Myers) and or Eovaldi (maybe for Odour) might be the first steps need to open up more opportunities and choices for this winter and beyond.

[Carpin]

Some of us have come up with suggestions we think will/could work.

 

They may be pie-in-the-sky, but something similar might work.

 

No plan is going to have us reset AND look to be highly competitive in 2020.

 

The most likely plan will be to try and look somewhat competitive in 2020 to keep the fan base interested while looking towards making the team better positioned for 2021 and beyond. That won't be easy, but freeing up some money by trading Price (maybe for Myers) and or Eovaldi (maybe for Odour) might be the first steps need to open up more opportunities and choices for this winter and beyond.

 

I think this is a good idea, but in order to have the other team to agree to those trades the Sox might need to add some other pieces

[moonslav59]

I think this is a good idea, but in order to have the other team to agree to those trades the Sox might need to add some other pieces

 

Maybe, or just add a little cash, but the two trades I listed pretty much balance out the money- not to an even point, but to about the value Price and Eovaldi are worth in open market FA dollars.

 

Price for Myers

Price: Owed $96M/3 ($31M x 3 on luxury tax)

Myers: Owed $68.5M/3 (JUST $13.83M x 3 on lux tax)

Overall cost of Price to SD: $27M/3 or about $9M a year- just about right.

The Sox save $27M/3, but more importantly, they save over $17M x 3 on Lux.

 

Eovalid for Odor

Eovaldi: Owed $51M/3 ($17M x 3 luxury tax)

Odor: owed $34M/3 (Just $8.25M x 3 on lux tax)

Overall cost of Eovaldi to TX: $17M/3 or $5.7M x 3- that's less than FA value. We could ask for a prospect with Odor.

The Sox save $17M, but also save almost $9M x 3 on the lux tax.

 

If we did both trades, we'd save about $26M a year for 3 years on the lux tax budget. If we also traded JBJ, we'd have about $30M to spend this winter.

 

In theory, going by MLBTR projected contracts, we'd be able to fill these holes:

 

1B- filled with Myers (not great, but capable as a bridge to 2021.)

2B- filled with Odor (not great, but capable as a bridge to 2021.)

Possible Free Agent Signings (~$30M to spend):

SP: $9M x 2 Tanner Roark

SP: $9M x 2 Julio Teheran or $8M x 2 Wade Miley

SP/RP: $4M x 2 Josh Lindblom or $6M x 1 Rich Hill/Michael Wacha

RP: $5M x 1 Pedro Strop or CF $3M x 3 Shogo Akiyama

 

Yes, we lose the slim possibility that both Price and Eovaldi stay healthy and return to form, possibly giving us a real shot at a ring run, but the depth we can add by trading just 2 guys is near astounding.

[Swiharts Ghost]

The Redsox don't reset we reload .Too much riding on this team .Let's cut the s*** and be honest .I like giving us topics as red meat period .I have never really believed this ownership has any intention of a rebuild helllllll no .I have thrown out Price as a chip purely because he's an asshat .Do o think we are better without Sale Price Erod ????? Are you smoking the Pipe people ? No freaking way .Does Bloom have to make small moves 2b and second catcher yes yes he does .Team is fantastic and I'd run it back again .

[Swiharts Ghost]

Strass just landed largest pitching deal ever .Sounds like Yankees and Angels are going all in on Cole .8 years 270 is the ask if I'm his agent

[moonslav59]

The Redsox don't reset we reload .Too much riding on this team .Let's cut the s*** and be honest .I like giving us topics as red meat period .I have never really believed this ownership has any intention of a rebuild helllllll no .I have thrown out Price as a chip purely because he's an asshat .Do o think we are better without Sale Price Erod ????? Are you smoking the Pipe people ? No freaking way .Does Bloom have to make small moves 2b and second catcher yes yes he does .Team is fantastic and I'd run it back again .

 

I have not seen any poster say we should trade ERod or Sale.

 

The talk has been mostly about JBJ- the same guy many said should be benched or DFA'd most of last year.

 

Second has been about Price and/or Eovaldi- the two guys who were hurt most of last year.

 

Talk of trading Betts has been high (maybe second), but it's not like we'd hand him away for nothing.

 

Last is JD.

 

We aren't trading all 5 and likely will not trade 3, unless it's July and we're 10 back.

[Carpin]

Strass just landed largest pitching deal ever .Sounds like Yankees and Angels are going all in on Cole .8 years 270 is the ask if I'm his agent

 

I'm pretty sure he will get more than that, based on Stras deal, Cole will be approaching the 300Millions mark