15 Years Ago Tonight

[S5Dewey]

I've always believed that the 2004 World Series is proof positive of the existence of momentum. The Cards won 105 regular season games that year, Beat the Dodgers 3-1 in the MLDS, took 4 of 7 from Houston, then had the misfortune to step in front of a rolling freight train.

[Kimmi]

Nope, that ALCS was so amazing, the WS series sweep was sort of an afterthought.

 

I think it was good that we swept the Cards. I don't think I could have handled a series with any more drama or pressure in it after the ALCS. LOL

[Kimmi]

I've always believed that the 2004 World Series is proof positive of the existence of momentum. The Cards won 105 regular season games that year, Beat the Dodgers 3-1 in the MLDS, took 4 of 7 from Houston, then had the misfortune to step in front of a rolling freight train.

 

OK, but what happened to the Yankees momentum after winning the first 3 games of the ALCS, the 3rd one in rather grand fashion?

[notin]

Poor Kenny.

 

Ever seen his post-season resume?

 

1999 Cleveland Guardians. Up 2 games to none over Boston in a best of 5. Lost

2002 San Francisco Giants. Up 3-2 in the World Series with a 5-0 in the 7th inning of game 6. Lost.

2003 Chicago Cubs. Bartman series. Cubs up 3 games to 2 with a 3-0 lead in the 8th inning of game 6. Gave up 8 runs and lost the game and the series.

2004. New York Yankees. Yup, Lofton was a Yankee that year.

2007. Cleveland Guardians. Up 3 games to 1 before JD, Beckett and the Curse of Kenny set in. Lost.

[FredLynn]

All of our WS Championships have been fun, but nothing will ever top 2004.

 

To be perfectly honest, winning a ring that year was second on my all time Sox moments.

 

First was eliminating the Yankees in the ALCS after falling behind 3 games to none.

[notin]

I think it was good that we swept the Cards. I don't think I could have handled a series with any more drama or pressure in it after the ALCS. LOL

 

Honestly, I don't think I would have minded losing to the Cards all that much. Not nearly as much as I minded losing to the Mets.

 

I mean, a team wins the World Series every year. But a comeback from 3 games to 0 in a best of 7 is a once in a lifetime event. And to do it to the Yankees made and end it in NY (remember when the camera kept cutting to their fans?) made it soooo much better. And that series made me a huge Joe Buck fan with his call to end game 5.

 

Of course, winning against St. Louis was nice, too...

[S5Dewey]

OK, but what happened to the Yankees momentum after winning the first 3 games of the ALCS, the 3rd one in rather grand fashion?

 

Superior momentum.

 

Seriously, winning doesn't necessarily create significant momentum. Momentum is one of those 'intangibles'. It starts in the mind/heart and is contagious throughout a team.

 

It also can't last forever. If it did some team would have gone 162-0 by now.

Edited October 18, 2019 by S5Dewey

[Bellhorn04]

Ever seen his post-season resume?

 

1999 Cleveland Guardians. Up 2 games to none over Boston in a best of 5. Lost

2002 San Francisco Giants. Up 3-2 in the World Series with a 5-0 in the 7th inning of game 6. Lost.

2003 Chicago Cubs. Bartman series. Cubs up 3 games to 2 with a 3-0 lead in the 8th inning of game 6. Gave up 8 runs and lost the game and the series.

2004. New York Yankees. Yup, Lofton was a Yankee that year.

2007. Cleveland Guardians. Up 3 games to 1 before JD, Beckett and the Curse of Kenny set in. Lost.

 

I knew it was bad, but that's incredible.

[Bellhorn04]

Superior momentum.

 

Seriously, winning doesn't necessarily create significant momentum. Momentum is one of those 'intangibles'. It starts in the mind/heart and is contagious throughout a team.

 

It also can't last forever. If it did some team would have gone 162-0 by now.

 

I like what Earl Weaver said: 'Momentum is the next day's starting pitcher.'

[Bellhorn04]

Superior momentum.

 

Seriously, winning doesn't necessarily create significant momentum. Momentum is one of those 'intangibles'. It starts in the mind/heart and is contagious throughout a team.

 

It also can't last forever. If it did some team would have gone 162-0 by now.

 

In support of your point:

 

Reggie Jackson said (after the series of course) that after the Angels blew Game 5 of the 1986 ALCS to us, he knew they had no chance to win one of the games back in Boston. The scores were 10-4 and 8-1.

[notin]

In support of your point:

 

Reggie Jackson said (after the series of course) that after the Angels blew Game 5 of the 1986 ALCS to us, he knew they had no chance to win one of the games back in Boston. The scores were 10-4 and 8-1.

 

Kind of like game 7 of the 1986 World Series. I wanted the Red Sox to win, but deep down I knew they were done...

[moonslav59]

I've always believed that the 2004 World Series is proof positive of the existence of momentum. The Cards won 105 regular season games that year, Beat the Dodgers 3-1 in the MLDS, took 4 of 7 from Houston, then had the misfortune to step in front of a rolling freight train.

 

Something has to give when two teams with momentum clash. The Sox had won 98 games in 2004- in a much tougher division and league.

[Behindenemylines]

That was the start of a run of four titles in 15 years. The greatest comeback in sports history. As KM said, don’t let us win tonight . . .

[Kimmi]

To be perfectly honest, winning a ring that year was second on my all time Sox moments.

 

First was eliminating the Yankees in the ALCS after falling behind 3 games to none.

 

When I say that nothing will ever top 2004, coming back on the Yankees was, of course, a huge part of that. The joy of winning our first championship was exponentially magnified by that ALCS.

 

That said, if the Sox had not completed the journey by winning the World Series, then that ALCS comeback would not be as precious or meaningful as it is.

[Kimmi]

Honestly, I don't think I would have minded losing to the Cards all that much. Not nearly as much as I minded losing to the Mets.

 

I mean, a team wins the World Series every year. But a comeback from 3 games to 0 in a best of 7 is a once in a lifetime event. And to do it to the Yankees made and end it in NY (remember when the camera kept cutting to their fans?) made it soooo much better. And that series made me a huge Joe Buck fan with his call to end game 5.

 

Of course, winning against St. Louis was nice, too...

 

Losing to the Cards would not hurt nearly as much as losing to the Yankees, but for me, it still would have hurt. And as I just posted, the Sox needed to finish it off in order to make the ALCS comeback more meaningful.

[Bellhorn04]

Losing to the Cards would not hurt nearly as much as losing to the Yankees, but for me, it still would have hurt. And as I just posted, the Sox needed to finish it off in order to make the ALCS comeback more meaningful.

 

Of course. Any arguments to the contrary are just silly, frankly.

[Kimmi]

Superior momentum.

 

Seriously, winning doesn't necessarily create significant momentum. Momentum is one of those 'intangibles'. It starts in the mind/heart and is contagious throughout a team.

 

It also can't last forever. If it did some team would have gone 162-0 by now.

 

Momentum has no impact on what will happen in a series, the next game, or even the next inning. Do you think the Yankees had a mind/heart set that they would win last night's game after tying it in the 9th? I'm guessing they did. Their comeback momentum lasted 1/2 of an inning.

[Bellhorn04]

I'll take an anticlimactic World Series win over a heartbreaking World Series loss any day.

[Kimmi]

In support of your point:

 

Reggie Jackson said (after the series of course) that after the Angels blew Game 5 of the 1986 ALCS to us, he knew they had no chance to win one of the games back in Boston. The scores were 10-4 and 8-1.

 

Anecdotal evidence. For every example you give me in support of momentum, I can give you one against.

 

Which is my point. Momentum means nothing in terms of predicting the outcome of the next game. It's 50-50.

[Kimmi]

I'll take an anticlimactic World Series win over a heartbreaking World Series loss any day.

 

Post of the day!

[S5Dewey]

Momentum has no impact on what will happen in a series, the next game, or even the next inning.

 

"but at the same time remember that we stat geeks value the human element in a game".

[Fan_since_Boggs]

To be perfectly honest, winning a ring that year was second on my all time Sox moments.

 

First was eliminating the Yankees in the ALCS after falling behind 3 games to none.

 

I'm not sure. Just imagine if the Red Sox got past the Yankees winning four in a row and then went on to lose the W.S. In that scenario, the 86 year thing continues. Even though Yankees fans would have been humiliated over the loss, they would have had a good laugh over the Red Sox continued failure to win a W.S.

 

Ultimately, the Red Sox needed both to happen--they need to kick the Yankess ass to eliminate one ghost, and then they needed to win the W.S. to eliminate the other ghost.

 

Since 2004, the Red Sox have obviously had the advantage over the Yankees, not only in winning 4 championships this century, but in defeating the Yankees in the playoffs in 2004 and 2018. The Yankees are now the team that has a few ghosts to overcome.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I think it was good that we swept the Cards. I don't think I could have handled a series with any more drama or pressure in it after the ALCS. LOL

Agree with this. I would have to look it up, but I don't think the Cardinals ever had the lead in that W.S. OR they had the lead for only one or two innings.

[harmony]

Agree with this. I would have to look it up, but I don't think the Cardinals ever had the lead in that W.S. OR they had the lead for only one or two innings.

The St. Louis Cardinals never had a lead in the 2004 World Series:

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2004_WS.shtml

[notin]

Agree with this. I would have to look it up, but I don't think the Cardinals ever had the lead in that W.S. OR they had the lead for only one or two innings.

 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread. Not only did they never have a lead, they only had one inning that ended in a tie (Game 1, inning 6). The Sox jumped out to a lead in the first inning of every games...

[Bellhorn04]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread. Not only did they never have a lead, they only had one inning that ended in a tie (Game 1, inning 6). The Sox jumped out to a lead in the first inning of every games...

 

In the 1966 World Series, Baltimore beat the Dodgers by scores of 5-2, 6-0, 1-0 and 1-0.

 

Not only did the Dodgers never have a lead, or a tie other than 0-0, they didn't score a run in the last 33 innings.

[illinoisredsox]

In the 1966 World Series, Baltimore beat the Dodgers by scores of 5-2, 6-0, 1-0 and 1-0.

 

Not only did the Dodgers never have a lead, or a tie other than 0-0, they didn't score a run in the last 33 innings.

 

The Orioles used only 4 pitchers in that series. Dave McNally allowed 2 runs in 2 1/3 in Game 1, then Moe Drabowsky pitched 6 2/3 shutout innings in relief. Jim Palmer, Wally Bunker and McNally followed with complete game shutouts.

 

Drysdale lost games 1 and 4, Koufax and Claude Osteen lost the other 2. Koufax retired at age 30 after that series.

[moonslav59]

The Orioles used only 4 pitchers in that series. Dave McNally allowed 2 runs in 2 1/3 in Game 1, then Moe Drabowsky pitched 6 2/3 shutout innings in relief. Jim Palmer, Wally Bunker and McNally followed with complete game shutouts.

 

Drysdale lost games 1 and 4, Koufax and Claude Osteen lost the other 2. Koufax retired at age 30 after that series.

 

Wow, just 4 pitchers! We can't even get that in one game anymore!

[illinoisredsox]

Wow, just 4 pitchers! We can't even get that in one game anymore!

 

Sometimes one inning

[notin]

The Orioles used only 4 pitchers in that series. Dave McNally allowed 2 runs in 2 1/3 in Game 1, then Moe Drabowsky pitched 6 2/3 shutout innings in relief. Jim Palmer, Wally Bunker and McNally followed with complete game shutouts.

 

Drysdale lost games 1 and 4, Koufax and Claude Osteen lost the other 2. Koufax retired at age 30 after that series.

 

No Mike Cuellar?