Happy 4th of July game vS The Blue Jays

[vegasbob]

Curveballing f***wits, despite their stats, cannot survive as serious end of game pitchers. They do not have command of the strike zone. An essential win , with another huge game by rafi and a key really big hit by Marco. f***ing pitching had next to nothing to do with the win nor the series win.

[vegasbob]

Where would this team be without Rafi Devers right now ?

[moonslav59]

Where would this team be without Rafi Devers right now ?

 

...or,

 

Marco Freakin' Hernandez!

 

[moonslav59]

W-L is quite misleading. They have the 2nd most blown saves in baseball. That is more significant.

 

Our pen has won more games for us than they have lost.

 

They have won more games for us than the starters, and I'm not talking actual win-losses or win due to blown saves and offensive comebacks.

 

They have lost less games for us than the starters have.

 

This is not meant to say our pen does not need help: it does, but let's not just concentrate on the blown saves. It's not the major reason we are behind several teams and way behind the Yanks.

 

[jung]

I actually don't know where this game is going. ALL PITCHING SUCKS in MLB at present. Starting pitching, relief pitching ANY PITCHING. There is virtually nothing more than a handful of pitchers in MLB left that can actually throw in the strike zone without seeing any ole' flick of a bat send a pitch over the fence. The combination of bad pitching and the rocket ship baseball is turning this game into a farce.

 

And that handful of pitchers that happen to be relief pitchers are being worn threadbare. See Giles last night forced to three straight stints in a row, failing last night to keep Marco from doinking a rocket ship aided, HR over the fence for the win.

 

- FB's now generally thrown up and out of the zone enticing hitters to chase.

- Curves thrown to finish off the plate down and out of the zone, enticing hitters to chase.

- Cutters thrown to just barely leak off or leak onto the plate based on the handedness of the pitcher and the hitter

- Changes thrown just off the plate hoping to entice the hitter to think it is something off speed that will leak back to the plate

- Sliders getting crushed because the pitch does not feature enough break, rolling up to the plate, pitchers throwing the pitch wild in the strike zone where it is sent into orbit (see rocket ship baseball)

 

The only pitch this crappy generation of MLB pitchers (virtually any MLB team now has a bunch of these so called ML pitchers) will throw over the plate is a get me over FB thrown at 0-0 in an effort to get ahead in the count.

 

Virtually everything else this generation of pitchers is throwing is designed to finish off the plate because they are simply not good enough to throw swing and miss pitches that are actually in the strike zone....none of them, virtually none of them. They can't do it for 1 inning or 5 or 6 and certainly not a complete game now more rare than hen's teeth. They generally feature weak cheese that just gets crushed (see most of the pitches JD hits) or flat, rolling sliders that finish right over the heart (see virtually everything Chavis actually hits). The few pitchers in MLB that can throw at all are just being worn through by excess work BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE CAN THROW!

 

Probably the next pitch to come on line an a big way if they can throw it will be the split finger with the Slider going the way of the dinosaurs at least for some period of time.

 

I actually wonder if pitchers can even grip the rocket ship baseball any longer as i have never seen so many flat, doing nothing, going nowhere, weak cheese FB's in my life.

[Maxbialystock]

I actually don't know where this game is going. ALL PITCHING SUCKS in MLB at present. Starting pitching, relief pitching ANY PITCHING. There is virtually nothing more than a handful of pitchers in MLB left that can actually throw in the strike zone without seeing any ole' flick of a bat send a pitch over the fence. The combination of bad pitching and the rocket ship baseball is turning this game into a farce.

 

And that handful of pitchers that happen to be relief pitchers are being worn threadbare. See Giles last night forced to three straight stints in a row, failing last night to keep Marco from doinking a rocket ship aided, HR over the fence for the win.

 

- FB's now generally thrown up and out of the zone enticing hitters to chase.

- Curves thrown to finish off the plate down and out of the zone, enticing hitters to chase.

- Cutters thrown to just barely leak off or leak onto the plate based on the handedness of the pitcher and the hitter

- Changes thrown just off the plate hoping to entice the hitter to think it is something off speed that will leak back to the plate

- Sliders getting crushed because the pitch does not feature enough break, rolling up to the plate, pitchers throwing the pitch wild in the strike zone where it is sent into orbit (see rocket ship baseball)

 

The only pitch this crappy generation of MLB pitchers (virtually any MLB team now has a bunch of these so called ML pitchers) will throw over the plate is a get me over FB thrown at 0-0 in an effort to get ahead in the count.

 

Virtually everything else this generation of pitchers is throwing is designed to finish off the plate because they are simply not good enough to throw swing and miss pitches that are actually in the strike zone....none of them, virtually none of them. They can't do it for 1 inning or 5 or 6 and certainly not a complete game now more rare than hen's teeth. They generally feature weak cheese that just gets crushed (see most of the pitches JD hits) or flat, rolling sliders that finish right over the heart (see virtually everything Chavis actually hits). The few pitchers in MLB that can throw at all are just being worn through by excess work BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE CAN THROW!

 

Probably the next pitch to come on line an a big way if they can throw it will be the split finger with the Slider going the way of the dinosaurs at least for some period of time.

 

I actually wonder if pitchers can even grip the rocket ship baseball any longer as i have never seen so many flat, doing nothing, going nowhere, weak cheese FB's in my life.

 

Not true. Lately it seems true, but season to date we have seen many well pitched games. I think pitchers are better than ever, but MLB does everything it can to make games more high scoring. Juiced baseballs. Tighter strike zones. The shifts have hurt hitting, so now more guys are trying to hit over the shifts, hence more dingers.

[jung]

Not true. Lately it seems true, but season to date we have seen many well pitched games. I think pitchers are better than ever, but MLB does everything it can to make games more high scoring. Juiced baseballs. Tighter strike zones. The shifts have hurt hitting, so now more guys are trying to hit over the shifts, hence more dingers.

 

The pitching is not better, its worse evidenced by how few pitchers there are that can throw swing and miss in the strike zone. This has been a trend that has been on the march now for at least 5 years if not ten, exacerbated by the juiced baseball. Velo is up but for shorter stints pitcher by pitcher and most of these high velo FB's are flat as a pancake. They don't move and pitching is about movement more than it is about velo. There are simply fewer and fewer pitchers that can throw with movement, finish in the Strike Zone and either get swing and miss on a pitch or weak contact. This actually used to be the way pitchers got hitters out, when pitchers actually could pitch. They did it with regularity. This is also in large part why starters could go deep into games and or throw complete games.

 

Pitching is BETTER? Are you blind? Openers starting games, masses of bullpen games, Quality Starts as a meaningful stat. Innings per start for Starters sliding off a cliff edge. PLEASE!

Edited July 5, 2019 by jung

[Slasher9]

All pitches suffer quality with lower seams. The lower/tighter seams are killing pitchers

[Bellhorn04]

The pitching is not better, its worse evidenced by how few pitchers there are that can throw swing and miss in the strike zone. This has been a trend that has been on the march now for at least 5 years if not ten, exacerbated by the juiced baseball. Velo is up but for shorter stints pitcher by pitcher and most of these high velo FB's are flat as a pancake. They don't move and pitching is about movement more than it is about velo. There are simply fewer and fewer pitchers that can throw with movement, finish in the Strike Zone and either get swing and miss on a pitch or weak contact.

 

You do realize that there are more strikeouts now than ever?

[Kimmi]

The game on Extra innings was on the Toronto feed until technical difficulties cut the game off. It's back, but now on the NESN feed.

 

That was probably the best part of the night.

[Kimmi]

I swear to God if this stat Geek does not shut up I am going to put my foot through the TV. What the f*** does he know about hitting....NOTHING thats what, NOTHING.

 

I really don't get all the dislike for Speier. I think he's awesome.

 

One of the better writers for the Red Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

I really don't get all the dislike for Speier. I think he's awesome.

 

One of the better writers for the Red Sox.

 

I think he's great too. Haters gonna hate.

 

Did you know he has a book coming out about the 2018 season?

 

Remdawg also has a book coming out or already out.

[jung]

You do realize that there are more strikeouts now than ever?

 

Sure there are. Swing on a plane trying to lift the ball and swing out of your shoelaces and you are going to swing and miss more often. There are no longer swing and miss pitches being thrown in the strike zone and there is very little weak contact being induced. Most of the swing and miss now is at pitches thrown out of the zone and thrown out of the zone on purpose. Pitchers are all too often now trying to induce a swing at a pitch that does not finish in the zone. Swing and miss at pitches IN THE ZONE and weak contact is how pitchers USED to get hitters out. This is also why pitchers went deeper into games and also why pitchers actually pitched complete games with far more regularity than they do today.

 

Pitchers will try to throw a pitch in the zone and most specifically a get me over FB at 0-0 in order to get ahead in the count and THAT IS IT. From there are on they throwing pitches specifically intended to finish out of the zone.

 

This is also why I tend to bring this up when we as fans are screaming for some chump pitcher to throw a pitch that will be a called strike. He is not trying to throw a pitch that will be a called strike. HE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO THROW IN THE ZONE AND NOT have the ball go screaming past his ear coming the other way or more likely rocket over the fence and he knows it!

[TylerD]

Where would this team be without Rafi Devers right now ?

 

Imagine how ridiculous good we would be if we had even a decent bullpen. Chances of a repeat could very well happen.

[Kimmi]

I think he's great too. Haters gonna hate.

 

Did you know he has a book coming out about the 2018 season?

 

Remdawg also has a book coming out or already out.

 

I knew that Remdawg has a book out. I did not know about Speier's. Thanks for the heads up.

[Bellhorn04]

Sure there are. Swing on a plane trying to lift the ball and swing out of your shoelaces and you are going to swing and miss more often. There are no longer swing and miss pitches being thrown in the strike zone and there is very little weak contact being induced. Most of the swing and miss now is at pitches thrown out of the zone and thrown out of the zone on purpose. Pitchers are all too often now trying to induce a swing at a pitch that does not finish in the zone. Swing and miss at pitches IN THE ZONE and weak contact is how pitchers USED to get hitters out.

 

You're not making much sense. If a pitcher gets a guy to swing and miss at a pitch that finishes out of the zone that's a good pitch by the pitcher, and it always was.

[Station 13]

He is now 8-1.

 

38 innings, 28 walks

[Bellhorn04]

38 innings, 28 walks

 

Workman's got some crazy numbers.

 

12.5 K per 9

6.5 BB per 9

3.2 H per 9

 

He's keeping the ball in the park, with only 1 HR allowed in 39 IP.

[jung]

You're not making much sense. If a pitcher gets a guy to swing and miss at a pitch that finishes out of the zone that's a good pitch by the pitcher, and it always was.

 

And how many innings does the starter pitch pitching this way? Pitchers went deeper into games in the past because they induced swing and miss on pitches IN THE ZONE and/or induced weak contact. Do your really think the "give me all you can for as long as you can" mentality of pitching coaches to pitchers is because pitching coaches think this is some wonderful innovation to pitching a baseball? The quality of pitching is nominally just not what it used to be. Too many guys that likely would not have even made it out of AA in the past, much less AAA now pitching MLB in today's game.

 

Again, want to look at a really good breaking pitch. Go find video of a Sandy Curve. Many of those started above the letters and finished at the bottom of the strike zone inducing a swing and miss at a pitch that would actually be a called strike if the hitter did not swing at it and Sandy's is just the Curve from the past you will most easily find on YouTube. Most Curves of that day were at least in that ballpark.

 

Want to see a really good FB, go find a video of the FB's they used to throw. No they were not often anywhere near triple digits, but the good ones all had tails. They would come up to the plate literally thrown right at the heart and would zip and dart left or right or left/up or right/up, still in the zone for a swing and miss at a pitch that would have been a called strike if the hitter did not swing at it. Throwing 98 flat as a pancake is a nothing ball. Its just a high velo nothing ball....A Joe Kelly special for example. These pitchers today know they can't throw in the zone and get away with it. They can't do it. They are doing what they can do.

[Bellhorn04]

Throwing 98 flat as a pancake is a nothing ball. Its just a high velo nothing ball....A Joe Kelly special for example. These pitchers today know they can't throw in the zone and get away with it. They can't do it. They are doing what they can do.

 

Joe Kelly, huh?

 

Kelly can be awful at times but when he has his command he can also be very tough.

 

In the 2018 postseason against the Yankees, Astros and Dodgers, Kelly threw 11.1 innings with 13 K's and NO WALKS.

[jung]

Another thing they can't do anymore is throw inside effectively, pointed out by Pedro BEFORE the onset of the rocket ship.

 

One of the recipients of that benefit is Rafi. I have not pointed this out in the past but since he is now taking full advantage, its about time.

 

Look at where Rafi sets up in the batters box. His back foot is barely in the box its so close to the plate and his first move is to dive across the plate with his front side.

 

Do you have any idea how often Rafi would be picking himself up off the ground even as late as the 1990's? He would be picking himself up off the ground more than once an AB against certain pitchers and often as not at least once a game against EVERYBODY. If he decided to glare out at the mound all he would have gotten for his trouble would be a glare back that said "Get up dummy. Get back in the box. Maybe I will buzz you again. Maybe I won't. Take your chances. Lets see if you want to continue to dive across like that."

 

Seen anybody buzz Rafi this year? He is ripping the cover off the ball diving across....anybody stopped him yet. NO!!!! Because they can't. They are not good enough! No command of pitches.

[dannycater]

I can't argue with the way the game has changed. Pitchers and the mentality of pitching has changed more so because SPs are expected to only get 15-18 outs when for more than a century they were give me a good 7, and if you throw a CG thank you very much. Relivers are now all throwing in the 90s. Hitters mentality changed to drive it out of the park when ever possible rather than hit a line drive, put the ball in play, or hit and run, etc. Hitters bat speeds are faster than ever and that's why if you do through a fastball down the middle, and now even a good curve, in all likelihood it could go out of the park against 9th hitters. Fooling hitters with breaking balls is not as easy as it was, and throwing a hard fastball better be on the corner or down at the low knees to be effective. Anyway, it's a different game today and it's become a strikeout, home run game and ESPN highlight reel for defense making more remarkable plays because players are more athletic than ever. The game has changed, the mentality, the coaching, the instruction, the video, the analytics, the scouting, the shifts. It's all check your index card in your pocket. Used to be hey move to the gap because want to prevent an extra base hit. Not anymore, you are scouted and thoroughly so to the point where the shift works more often than not. Guys are catching balls in what before would be considered outlandish areas to field a ball (shortstop 5 feet to his right of the 2nd base bag has to go to his left up the middle and makes play, and you go but he's the shortstop not the 2b??...all works). Tendencies of hitters, tendencies of pitchers, etc.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Imagine how ridiculous good we would be if we had even a decent bullpen. Chances of a repeat could very well happen.

 

Decent starting pitching would also help. BP isn't the only part of the SOX pitching staff that sucks.

[a700hitter]

I really don't get all the dislike for Speier. I think he's awesome.

 

One of the better writers for the Red Sox.

I don’t have a problem with his writing. He just adds nothing to the broadcasts. On the rare occasion that he says something that I don’t already know, it adds nothing to the game or the broadcast. Couple that with his whiny tone and I find him extremely annoying. He should stick to print journalism. The voice in my head as I read his articles is far more pleasant. Edited July 5, 2019 by a700hitter

[a700hitter]

I think he's great too. Haters gonna hate.

 

Did you know he has a book coming out about the 2018 season?

 

Remdawg also has a book coming out or already out.

Can people have an opinion today without being accused of having a negative character attribute? Many here strongly disliked Hawk Harrelson. I happened to enjoy that he was a unique character. Did you ever call the people who didn’t like Hawk “haters”. You may have been among them so it was okay. I don’t like Speier on broadcasts. Different strokes for different folks. In today’s “tolerant “ society, tolerance is afforded only to like minded people. Such hypocrisy. Not aiming this directly at you. You are a good thoughtful guy. I am making a larger point about society today and that many of us act in this obnoxious fashion on occasion.

[TylerD]

Decent starting pitching would also help. BP isn't the only part of the SOX pitching staff that sucks.

 

Agreed. Price has been about the only consistent pitcher we have. Porcello can be one of the best in the game and then one of the worst. So strange. Sale just straight up sucks lately.

[Bellhorn04]

Can people have an opinion today without being accused of having a negative character attribute? Many here strongly disliked Hawk Harrelson. I happened to enjoy that he was a unique character. Did you ever call the people who didn’t like Hawk “haters”. You may have been among them so it was okay. I don’t like Speier on broadcasts. Different strokes for different folks. In today’s “tolerant “ society, tolerance is afforded only to like minded people. Such hypocrisy. Not aiming this directly at you. You are a good thoughtful guy. I am making a larger point about society today and that many of us act in this obnoxious fashion on occasion.

 

Those are fair points. 'Haters' was over the top, admittedly.

[a700hitter]

Those are fair points. 'Haters' was over the top, admittedly.

Like I said, you are a good guy. There are many who wouldn’t see the distinction. Those are the people that are worrisome.

[jung]

I can't argue with the way the game has changed. Pitchers and the mentality of pitching has changed more so because SPs are expected to only get 15-18 outs when for more than a century they were give me a good 7, and if you throw a CG thank you very much. Relivers are now all throwing in the 90s. Hitters mentality changed to drive it out of the park when ever possible rather than hit a line drive, put the ball in play, or hit and run, etc. Hitters bat speeds are faster than ever and that's why if you do through a fastball down the middle, and now even a good curve, in all likelihood it could go out of the park against 9th hitters. Fooling hitters with breaking balls is not as easy as it was, and throwing a hard fastball better be on the corner or down at the low knees to be effective. Anyway, it's a different game today and it's become a strikeout, home run game and ESPN highlight reel for defense making more remarkable plays because players are more athletic than ever. The game has changed, the mentality, the coaching, the instruction, the video, the analytics, the scouting, the shifts. It's all check your index card in your pocket. Used to be hey move to the gap because want to prevent an extra base hit. Not anymore, you are scouted and thoroughly so to the point where the shift works more often than not. Guys are catching balls in what before would be considered outlandish areas to field a ball (shortstop 5 feet to his right of the 2nd base bag has to go to his left up the middle and makes play, and you go but he's the shortstop not the 2b??...all works). Tendencies of hitters, tendencies of pitchers, etc.

 

Not infielders...they are categorically LESS athletic and LESS agile. Agile is what they should be. OFer's maybe by a little bit more athletic as a category of player.

 

As for success hitting the crap they are throwing up there. They want to hit HR's and NOBODY has been stopping them from hitting HR's.

 

In addition this is a game that revolves around pitching and that from a former hitter, not a former pitcher. Every single thing that happens on a baseball diamond starts with the ball in the hands of the pitcher. If the ball is radically different than what it was with said changes occurring over a very short period of years and the pitchers are crap, the game is fundamentally changed in a way that actually deserves a new name. Whatever this is that they are playing out there, it ain't baseball.

Edited July 5, 2019 by jung

[TylerD]

Joe Kelly, huh?

 

Kelly can be awful at times but when he has his command he can also be very tough.

 

In the 2018 postseason against the Yankees, Astros and Dodgers, Kelly threw 11.1 innings with 13 K's and NO WALKS.

 

I miss him