A Realistic View at 2019: Part II

[Bellhorn04]

The fact that he didn’t in yesterday’s game certainly qualifies as WTF...

 

Cora did the same thing in the playoffs last year with Price and it worked out rather well.

 

This year nothing works.

[moonslav59]

Cora did the same thing in the playoffs last year with Price and it worked out rather well.

 

This year nothing works.

 

That scared the hell out of me last October.

[dannycater]

...as he should every game he is able to do it.

 

From the Globe: Sale won’t pitch again until after the All-Star break. Extended rest is typically a plus, for any pitcher but Sale has pitched on at least six days’ rest six times this season and he’s 0-5 with an 8.48 ERA in those starts.

 

This is exactly why Cora hasn't been bright about Sale and how he is coddled at times. This is a guy who needs to pitch every 5th/6th day, not 7. It's too long and with Sale's binky not catching him is a recipe for more disaster. Vasquez is a terrific hitting catcher, but honestly I have to wonder how good is he calling pitches behind the dish and how much it affects a Porcello or Sale, and some of the relievers as well.

[Kimmi]

The disparity between Leon and Vaz is actually greater with Price than Porcello, but for some reason, Vaz has become Price's only catcher. It's working, this year, so I'm not complaining.

 

Career CERA:

 

Sale

2.53 Leon

4.61 Vaz

(Vaz would have to go 3 for 4 every game to make up for 2+ runs)

 

Price

2.75 Leon (0.00 in 2019 but only 6 IP)

4.16 Vaz (3.59 in 2019- 73 IP)

5.73 Swihart

 

Porcello

4.06 Leon

4.70 Vaz

4.93 Swihart

 

ERod

4.15 Leon

4.28 Vaz

4.44 Swihart

 

Some differentials are wider than others, but all show Leon gets better results than Vaz.

 

An ERA differential of 1-2 runs would take an enormous offensive differential to outweigh that many runs per game. Vaz is doing great on offense, but I doubt a .250-.300 OPS differential equates to 1-2 runs per game.

 

 

You don't have to convince me. I have always said that whatever offense a catcher gives us is gravy. If Leon can get a starter to lower his ERA by 1 or 2 runs, then by all means, keep him in the game. Let the rest of the line up carry the offense.

[Kimmi]

Aces get preference. The Braves had Maddux throw only to Eddy Perez when Javy Lopez was hitting the piss out of the ball. Pettitte threw to Girardi over Posada early on. If Sale goes into Cora's office and says, Leon is my catcher, then Leon will be catching. As a former pitcher (current if you consider the old man league I am in), confidence in the catcher can be the difference between a hanger and a K, a ball or a strike. I have played with guys who were unbelievable behind the dish and guys who were fat slobs. The confidence in knowing you can bounce a ball and your catcher has your back is very, very empowering. It allows you not to have to feel like you need to be perfect. I also have to wonder if some of it is game calling. Sale notoriously does not shake off his catcher. He doesn't call the game, the catcher does. Leon likely does a better job.

 

Good post Jacko.

 

Eck has repeatedly said more or less the same thing on the telecast. He points out that most pitchers are not likely to verbalize that they prefer one catcher over another, but most of them do.

[Kimmi]

Cora did the same thing in the playoffs last year with Price and it worked out rather well.

 

This year nothing works.

 

It's uncanny. Last year, everything that Cora did worked out well. This year, it seems like nothing works. Except for Marco Hernandez pinch hitting.

[Bellhorn04]

From the Globe: Sale won’t pitch again until after the All-Star break. Extended rest is typically a plus, for any pitcher but Sale has pitched on at least six days’ rest six times this season and he’s 0-5 with an 8.48 ERA in those starts.

 

This is exactly why Cora hasn't been bright about Sale and how he is coddled at times. This is a guy who needs to pitch every 5th/6th day, not 7. It's too long and with Sale's binky not catching him is a recipe for more disaster. Vasquez is a terrific hitting catcher, but honestly I have to wonder how good is he calling pitches behind the dish and how much it affects a Porcello or Sale, and some of the relievers as well.

 

Cora has been trying everything with Sale and not much has worked.

 

In the first half of 2018 Sale pitched great whether it was on 4 days rest or 5-6 days rest.

 

He really hasn't been the same guy since then.

 

And he hasn't been pitching that well with Leon behind the plate recently either.

 

It's not Cora's fault. Sale just hasn't been right.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Bellhorn04

[dannycater]

Here is how messed up baseball is : Down five runs , with one out in the ninth , Gurriel hits a sac fly for the second out . He goes back to the dugout and gets high fives . Do these guys even understand the game ?

 

With all due respect, you are completely not understanding of what it means to be a good teammate, and "understanding the game" has nothing to do with doing something to help your team score. I move a runner over on a grounder and it's an out, but if it meant moving him into scoring position, and the next guy singles him in, that's not helping your team? It's not about the score. You can argue the other team is one out closer to victory, and that's fine, but bottom line if I hit a sac fly that scores a run it's a run and that's what is the most important thing whether it's 1-0, 7-1, 27-1. You congratulate your teammate and you do that every f***ing time.

[dannycater]

It's uncanny. Last year, everything that Cora did worked out well. This year, it seems like nothing works. Except for Marco Hernandez pinch hitting.

 

Marco is a big favorite of Alex, and having the manager's confidence results in pinch hit home runs or big hits off the bench. Nunez did that in the WS last year, you have an opportunity for a big hit from a guy not expected to come through, and they come through because the manager has their back. Cora's strength.

[Bellhorn04]

With all due respect, you are completely not understanding of what it means to be a good teammate, and "understanding the game" has nothing to do with doing something to help your team score. I move a runner over on a grounder and it's an out, but if it meant moving him into scoring position, and the next guy singles him in, that's not helping your team? It's not about the score. You can argue the other team is one out closer to victory, and that's fine, but bottom line if I hit a sac fly that scores a run it's a run and that's what is the most important thing whether it's 1-0, 7-1, 27-1. You congratulate your teammate and you do that every f***ing time.

 

I don't know, danny. In that situation a sac fly was an unsuccessful play. It was not what the hitter was trying to do, or should have been trying to do.

 

I can see supporting, but not celebrating. I think there's a big difference between the two.

[dannycater]

There is no end-all on catchers except the Sox desperately brought Leon back after discovering that Swihart was not going to help the pitchers (or that's their assessment). Vasquez also has some issues with some of the SP, but in the overall it's a good tandem. Leon caught, team gave up 7 runs. How much is it the catcher's fault or just pitchers who are having trouble keeping the fort from being attacked, and doing it unsuccessfully. Even the best Sox relievers--Workman--still blew a save opportunity.

[dannycater]

I don't know, danny. In that situation a sac fly was an unsuccessful play. It was not what the hitter was trying to do, or should have been trying to do.

 

I can see supporting, but not celebrating. I think there's a big difference between the two.

 

Celebrating or congratulating. Was it that demonstrative (I did not see the play, for the record)?

[dannycater]

In general, you score a run, you can high five a teammate and say good job, it's part of the game, the score has zero to do with boosting your teammates. It's universal in any league.

[Bellhorn04]

Celebrating or congratulating. Was it that demonstrative (I did not see the play, for the record)?

 

I agree. Unfortunately I didn't see it either.

[dannycater]

The bottom line is, dgalehouse was questioning why the high fives after a ninth inning out. I think the answer is simple: they’re having fun.

 

It’s a game. If you played baseball for a career, win or lose, wouldn’t you be ecstatic about your job? And be thrilled to play every day?

 

Bruins trail in the 7th game, and Gryz scores with under a minute left for the team's only goal. The player gets high-fived, the B's play their goal music and the fans who are there cheer and stand. You are not allowed to be excited about the goal? It's the same logic. Players drive in a run, you get high-fived, or congratulated. It's not fun as much as it's part of the game, and about sportsmanship, team performance.

[moonslav59]

Cora has been trying everything with Sale and not much has worked.

 

In the first half of 2018 Sale pitched great whether it was on 4 days rest or 5-6 days rest.

 

He really hasn't been the same guy since then.

 

And he hasn't been pitching that well with Leon behind the plate recently either.

 

It's not Cora's fault. Sale just hasn't been right.

 

He did have one great stretch, this year, that could give us hope he can again.

 

6.30 first 5 games (32Ks- 10 BBs)

 

2.09 next 9 games (98 Ks- 11 BBs, 5 in 1 game- 88/6 in other 8 gms)

 

7.02 last 3 games (23 Ks- 5 BBs)

 

His 9 game stretch actually outnumbers his 2 bad stretches combined 9-8.

 

He's certainly "not himself" right now, and despite the numbers with an extra day's rest, I think Cora's plan has merit.

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by moonslav59

[dannycater]

I agree. Unfortunately I didn't see it either.

 

galehouse made a statement that in itself questions players' attitudes or the way they act based on score of game. In football, again, I'm down 35-3 and I successfully score a touchdown or as a backup QB I get down the field and get my team into the end zone, I'm high-fiving, I'm excited to make a play and it's good for the team. Congratulate, high five, and do it because you are a good teammate and your team appreciates you doing something for your team--sac fly, move the runner over, home run, late PP goal, whatever. Score has nothing to do with anything regarding this area of appreciation.

[dannycater]

To further that same logic, you even congratulate pitchers who failed. Happens all the time. You are a reliever, you go through a 15-pitch at bat, and then the guy bloops a RBI single and the manager pulls you. Players are patting the pitcher on the butt, they are saying hey you did your best, and thank you for your hard work. People generally shake hands even with pitchers, it's baseball, it's sports.

[dannycater]

The last thing you need to criticize in sports is how you react after your team does a successful thing, in this case scoring a run. It's the goal of the game, score runs. Celebrating and how you go about it in your own dugout is not my concern and not a disrespectful thing unless you are taunting someone up 10 runs and you point scoreboard to the other dugout. Celebrate goals, touchdowns, baskets, great saves, diving stops, great throws and if you are down by 3 touchdowns, or 10 runs or 25 points, so what. Part of the game.

[Kimmi]

Marco is a big favorite of Alex, and having the manager's confidence results in pinch hit home runs or big hits off the bench. Nunez did that in the WS last year, you have an opportunity for a big hit from a guy not expected to come through, and they come through because the manager has their back. Cora's strength.

 

Completely agree.

[moonslav59]

To further that same logic, you even congratulate pitchers who failed. Happens all the time. You are a reliever, you go through a 15-pitch at bat, and then the guy bloops a RBI single and the manager pulls you. Players are patting the pitcher on the butt, they are saying hey you did your best, and thank you for your hard work. People generally shake hands even with pitchers, it's baseball, it's sports.

 

Perhaps one of the most famous congratulations shown by a team towards a losing pitcher was with Eovaldi in that epic loss in extra innings.

 

One could easily point to that "clubhouse moment" as the point that solidified team unity. Other starters went to Cora afterwards and all but begged to be used on short rest.

 

(I also think that moment was a major factor in us re-signing Eovaldi.)

[Kimmi]

Perhaps one of the most famous congratulations shown by a team towards a losing pitcher was with Eovaldi in that epic loss in extra innings.

 

One could easily point to that "clubhouse moment" as the point that solidified team unity. Other starters went to Cora afterwards and all but begged to be used on short rest.

 

(I also think that moment was a major factor in us re-signing Eovaldi.)

 

Good example.

 

Good posts by Cater on this topic.

[dgalehouse]

People are missing the whole point of my comment on that sac fly . Gurriel did nothing to be congratulated for in that at bat . Getting on base in any manner was the goal . Anything that got him on base would have been better than the sac fly .Except for helping his stats , a strikeout would have been no worse . No comparison whatsoever to what Eovaldi did in the Series game .

[dannycater]

People are missing the whole point of my comment on that sac fly . Gurriel did nothing to be congratulated for in that at bat . Getting on base in any manner was the goal . Anything that got him on base would have been better than the sac fly .Except for helping his stats , a strikeout would have been no worse . No comparison whatsoever to what Eovaldi did in the Series game .

 

denny, he knocked in a run, what does it matter that it was down 6, or up 6, or down 15. You can be personally mad at yourself, you can be happy to drive a ball, you can be whatever you want, but your teammates have your back, and the way we were all taught as teammates is congratulate your teammate regardless of outcome. You strike out, you still pat the guy on the back, get them next time. If you knock in a run, you high five him. It's all good.

[a700hitter]

Perhaps one of the most famous congratulations shown by a team towards a losing pitcher was with Eovaldi in that epic loss in extra innings.

 

One could easily point to that "clubhouse moment" as the point that solidified team unity. Other starters went to Cora afterwards and all but begged to be used on short rest.

 

(I also think that moment was a major factor in us re-signing Eovaldi.)

That was an extraordinary performance that kept the Red Sox in the game for 6 innings in relief— unheard of in today’s game. A sac fly to make the second out in the 9th down by 5 runs isn’t a big deal. Maybe it merits a slight fist bump as he passes people on the way to his seat on the bench. It doesn’t merit players getting up to greet him at the top step of the dugout. Should they have met him at the ondeck circle and jumped up and down with him as a group? This whole discussion is preposterous. DGalehouse had a certain emotional response to something in the game and people here find the need to go on for pages to invalidate what he felt. The contrarian approach by so many posters on this board is okay when discussing the merits of a player or manager, but challenging and debating someone’s emotional response to something in a game is just jerkiness. Seriously, you people can be a bunch of *******s. Edited July 5, 2019 by a700hitter

[moonslav59]

People are missing the whole point of my comment on that sac fly . Gurriel did nothing to be congratulated for in that at bat . Getting on base in any manner was the goal . Anything that got him on base would have been better than the sac fly .Except for helping his stats , a strikeout would have been no worse . No comparison whatsoever to what Eovaldi did in the Series game .

 

I get your point, and I don't really disagree. I think it is just a force of habit to congratulate a player for hitting the ball hard and driving in a run.

 

The Eovaldi example is way different, but why do basketball players pat a guy on the butt after missing a foul shot

 

It's about encouraging your teammates and letting them know you have their back... in good times and bad. Maybe it's like a group consoling.

[dgalehouse]

denny, he knocked in a run, what does it matter that it was down 6, or up 6, or down 15. You can be personally mad at yourself, you can be happy to drive a ball, you can be whatever you want, but your teammates have your back, and the way we were all taught as teammates is congratulate your teammate regardless of outcome. You strike out, you still pat the guy on the back, get them next time. If you knock in a run, you high five him. It's all good.

 

Not in that situation. The run was meaningless . It was the ninth inning. They needed a five run rally . Making an out there hurt their chances .

[jacksonianmarch]

Good post Jacko.

 

Eck has repeatedly said more or less the same thing on the telecast. He points out that most pitchers are not likely to verbalize that they prefer one catcher over another, but most of them do.

 

 

Then WTF ( best nickname ever btw) should get his act straight. If Sale is right and has his command, you don’t need Vasquez’ offense.

[dannycater]

Not in that situation. The run was meaningless . It was the ninth inning. They needed a five run rally . Making an out there hurt their chances .

 

Like moon said, you just congratulate guys in general, it's part of the game and part of being a good teammate, and frankly good sportsmanship too.

[Bellhorn04]

Then WTF ( best nickname ever btw) should get his act straight.

 

It's no better than Francoma.

 

Yeah, it's just great to have cleverly insulting nicknames for managers who guide the team to World Series championships.