The annual Jackie Bradley Jr thread (2019 Edition)

[moonslav59]

Not even close. Cora had a terrific abundance of talent which neither Dick Williams the best post WW2 manager , Joe Cronin and Terry Francona did not have. Cora may end up to be a one year wonder just like John Farrell.

 

I remember Dick Williams, and yes, Terry was good, too, but saying any Sox manager is the best ever is not saying all that much.

 

BTW, Terry had massive amounts of talent. Williams not as much, but then again, he never won a ring.

[mvp 78]

I remember Dick Williams, and yes, Terry was good, too, but saying any Sox manager is the best ever is not saying all that much.

 

BTW, Terry had massive amounts of talent. Williams not as much, but then again, he never won a ring.

 

Jimmy Williams > Dick Williams

[moonslav59]

Jimmy Williams > Dick Williams

 

Funny!

[Elktonnick]

Jimmy Williams > Dick Williams

 

Jimmy Williams can not compare with Dick Williams managerial accomplishments.

For you youngsters who weren't around in 1967, this is from an article written by Eric Aron for the Society for Baseball Research (SABR)

Dick Williams was regarded as one of baseball’s premier managers and turnaround artists. He was only the second skipper to win pennants for three different teams — Boston, Oakland, and San Diego.1 As a rookie manager in 1967, Williams led the Red Sox from ninth place the year before to the World Series. Both personally and tactically, he took a no-nonsense, aggressive approach, which electrified several teams that he managed. His A’s won back-to-back World Series, and he pushed the Padres to their first-ever postseason.

As a manager Williams compiled a record of 1,571 wins and 1,451 losses in 21 seasons, 20th on the career victory list as of 2014. Williams also enjoyed a fine playing career. As a versatile utilityman, he played with five teams in 13 seasons. After an appearance in the 1953 World Series with the Brooklyn Dodgers, Williams had three separate stints with the Baltimore Orioles, playing for manager and key mentor Paul Richards. Williams was voted into the Hall of Fame in 2008.

[moonslav59]

Jimmy Williams can not compare with Dick Williams managerial accomplishments.

For you youngsters who weren't around in 1967, this is from an article written by Eric Aron for the Society for Baseball Research (SABR)

Dick Williams was regarded as one of baseball’s premier managers and turnaround artists. He was only the second skipper to win pennants for three different teams — Boston, Oakland, and San Diego.1 As a rookie manager in 1967, Williams led the Red Sox from ninth place the year before to the World Series. Both personally and tactically, he took a no-nonsense, aggressive approach, which electrified several teams that he managed. His A’s won back-to-back World Series, and he pushed the Padres to their first-ever postseason.

As a manager Williams compiled a record of 1,571 wins and 1,451 losses in 21 seasons, 20th on the career victory list as of 2014. Williams also enjoyed a fine playing career. As a versatile utilityman, he played with five teams in 13 seasons. After an appearance in the 1953 World Series with the Brooklyn Dodgers, Williams had three separate stints with the Baltimore Orioles, playing for manager and key mentor Paul Richards. Williams was voted into the Hall of Fame in 2008.

 

He was great, but my point was best SOX manager of all time. (BTW, I was around in '67, but was not a Sox fan then.)

 

I might agree the Dick Williams was the greatest manager to have ever coached the Sox during his career, and 9th to the WS is an amazing accomplishment, but the other two years were troublesome, he never won a ring, and apparently Yaz undermined his authority.

[Elktonnick]

He was great, but my point was best SOX manager of all time. (BTW, I was around in '67, but was not a Sox fan then.)

 

I might agree the Dick Williams was the greatest manager to have ever coached the Sox during his career, and 9th to the WS is an amazing accomplishment, but the other two years were troublesome, he never won a ring, and apparently Yaz undermined his authority.

 

I respect your point of view but Cora is a one year wonder until he can repeat and unless he can repeat he can not hold a candle to either Williams, Cronin or Francona as to managerial ability. To even jokingly compare Jimmy Williams to Dick Williams is silly.

[Bellhorn04]

I respect your point of view but Cora is a one year wonder until he can repeat and unless he can repeat he can not hold a candle to either Williams, Cronin or Francona as to managerial ability. To even jokingly compare Jimmy Williams to Dick Williams is silly.

 

Wasn't Dick Williams a one year wonder with the Red Sox?

[moonslav59]

I respect your point of view but Cora is a one year wonder until he can repeat and unless he can repeat he can not hold a candle to either Williams, Cronin or Francona as to managerial ability. To even jokingly compare Jimmy Williams to Dick Williams is silly.

 

1) I didn't bring up Jimmy Williams.

2) Dick Williams had 3 years to win a ring in Boston and got zero.

3) Cora 1 Williams 0

 

I respect your point of view as well, and have supported Dick Williams in the debate vs Terry F.

 

To me, Cora instilled "fire & desire" into a team that had a history of bonehead plays, lack of focus and more. Yes, he had a nice team, on paper, but he turned the team around.

 

[moonslav59]

Wasn't Dick Williams a one year wonder with the Red Sox?

 

One year that lost game 7.

 

BTW, Farrell had a last to first & ring to his credit, as well as a first to last-last.

[Bellhorn04]

One year that lost game 7.

 

BTW, Farrell had a last to first & ring to his credit, as well as a first to last-last.

 

Yeah. Honestly these managerial comparisons get a bit silly. But you have to give the edge to the guys who won the rings.

[Elktonnick]

Wasn't Dick Williams a one year wonder with the Red Sox?

 

He transformed the Red Sox from a horrid second division ball club to eventually build the foundation for what the team is today. 67 marks the turning point in Red Sox fortunes. Dick Williams eventually went to HOF.

[moonslav59]

Yeah. Honestly these managerial comparisons get a bit silly. But you have to give the edge to the guys who won the rings.

 

Strength of teams on paper is a big factor, but I'm just going by what I see and have seen. I wasn't a Sox fan and didn't watch the Sox until the early 70's.

 

Cora is the best I've seen.

[moonslav59]

He transformed the Red Sox from a horrid second division ball club to eventually build the foundation for what the team is today. 67 marks the turning point in Red Sox fortunes. Dick Williams eventually went to HOF.

 

John Henry's teams have nothing to do with Dick Williams.

 

Williams was a very fine manager, but he's in the HOF for what he did with other teams-- not the Sox.

[Elktonnick]

1) I didn't bring up Jimmy Williams.

2) Dick Williams had 3 years to win a ring in Boston and got zero.

3) Cora 1 Williams 0

 

I respect your point of view as well, and have supported Dick Williams in the debate vs Terry F.

 

To me, Cora instilled "fire & desire" into a team that had a history of bonehead plays, lack of focus and more. Yes, he had a nice team, on paper, but he turned the team around.

 

 

Williams did that in spades with the 67 Red Sox. Cora inherited a solid ballclub. Williams inherited a team with a history of over a dozen years of mediocrity.

[mvp 78]

Jimmy: 2 Sox seasons over 90 wins

Dick: 1 Sox season over 90 wins

 

Jimmy was better

[mvp 78]

Williams did that in spades with the 67 Red Sox. Cora inherited a solid ballclub. Williams inherited a team with a history of over a dozen years of mediocrity.

 

Nah, he got lucky and inherited a young team of budding stars. The players had more to do with the 67 magic than Dick. People really overstate his contributions.

[moonslav59]

Nah, he got lucky and inherited a young team of budding stars. The players had more to do with the 67 magic than Dick. People really overstate his contributions.

 

Maybe. Maybe some understate them.

[Elktonnick]

Nah, he got lucky and inherited a young team of budding stars. The players had more to do with the 67 magic than Dick. People really overstate his contributions.

 

Yea that's why he is in the HOF BTW the only other member of that team in the HOF is Yaz.

[moonslav59]

Yea that's why he is in the HOF BTW the only other member of that team in the HOF is Yaz.

 

Tony C. would have, if only...

[oldtimer]

Tony C. would have, if only...

 

Tony Conigliaro was off to a great start in his career but was sidelined with a fastball to the head and wound up with double vision afterwards and couldn't regain the magic after that. I foret who beaned him at this point but it was a cruel blow for Tony and the Sox.

[cp176]

Tony Conigliaro was off to a great start in his career but was sidelined with a fastball to the head and wound up with double vision afterwards and couldn't regain the magic after that. I foret who beaned him at this point but it was a cruel blow for Tony and the Sox.

 

I will never forget the night that happened. Listening to the old transistor - couldn't believe it. For the record, Williams was a great manager. Just what we needed at the time. Someone to manage a very young team with very very few established stars. Impossible to compare of course but the talent level of the 75, 78, and 86 red sox teams laid over what was out there in 67. I have enjoyed our titles as much as the nest guy, but the fact that we won doesn't in itself make any manager better than another one. Sometimes you have the talent and are expected to win. Just stay to hell out of the way. Williams built a team out of not a whole lot. obviously if I had to I would give my vote to him.

[cp176]

By the way - I think the days of covering for JBJ and his elite glove are likely coming to an end. What he gives us does not in any way make him indispensable no matter how much people happen to like him. i hope that he starts to hit because if he doesn't he won't continue to get a free pass.

[jung]

By the way - I think the days of covering for JBJ and his elite glove are likely coming to an end. What he gives us does not in any way make him indispensable no matter how much people happen to like him. i hope that he starts to hit because if he doesn't he won't continue to get a free pass.

 

Vaz and his hitting has earned JBJ some relief of the pressure to hit if he needs it. I don't even think the Sox are trying to replace JBJ at the moment as what they would want given their dependence on pitching is a CFer with the same or better defensive skills and a more consistent bat. They are out there. but I don't think we have the means to secure them. So IMO he is here for the remainder of this year unless we fall apart and are no longer contending this year. Beyond this year, he is up for arb next year and a FA in 2021. Depending on the state of the Rotation and if the window is closing on this Rotation and the team's dependence on it that might tell us about JBJ and 2020. I don't see the Sox even making an effort to sign him as a FA in 2021 unless he is willing to take a major pay cut or at the very least tread water to stay here.

[notin]

Vaz and his hitting has earned JBJ some relief of the pressure to hit if he needs it. I don't even think the Sox are trying to replace JBJ at the moment as what they would want given their dependence on pitching is a CFer with the same or better defensive skills and a more consistent bat. They are out there. but I don't think we have the means to secure them. So IMO he is here for the remainder of this year unless we fall apart and are no longer contending this year. Beyond this year, he is up for arb next year and a FA in 2021. Depending on the state of the Rotation and if the window is closing on this Rotation and the team's dependence on it that might tell us about JBJ and 2020. I don't see the Sox even making an effort to sign him as a FA in 2021 unless he is willing to take a major pay cut or at the very least tread water to stay here.

 

 

I’m not so sure the Sox aren’t trying to replace JBJ. Chavis is reportedly looking at outfield time. And he isn’t going out there to replace Betts.

 

Maybe the Sox might occasionally try Chavis in LF and slide Benintendi over to CF?

[Slasher9]

 

Maybe the Sox might occasionally try Chavis in LF and slide Benintendi over to CF?

 

I think Cora is going to give JBj this homestand to get going offensively. if he doesn't i expect to see this on the road trip. or JD in OF and chavis DH. my guess is a combo of both until Holt comes back.

[Bellhorn04]

I think Cora is going to give JBj this homestand to get going offensively. if he doesn't i expect to see this on the road trip. or JD in OF and chavis DH. my guess is a combo of both until Holt comes back.

 

Seeing JBJ reduced to a bench role would make me sick, as I know it would do to you.

 

I sure hope he starts hitting.

[Bellhorn04]

Nah, he got lucky and inherited a young team of budding stars. The players had more to do with the 67 magic than Dick. People really overstate his contributions.

 

I always like it when you're on the same side of a debate as me. Especially since you're the guy who will take it to the extreme.

[mvp 78]

Yea that's why he is in the HOF BTW the only other member of that team in the HOF is Yaz.

 

Because only the best of the best are in the HOF. LOL

 

Also, the case I'm making is that Jimmy was a better Sox manager than Dick.

[cp176]

I think Cora is going to give JBj this homestand to get going offensively. if he doesn't i expect to see this on the road trip. or JD in OF and chavis DH. my guess is a combo of both until Holt comes back.

 

You likely are right. JBJ might come down with a phantom injury as well. It is a shame what is going on with him for sure. He is a good one. talented and homegrown. Reality sucks sometimes.

[mvp 78]

I always like it when you're on the same side of a debate as me. Especially since you're the guy who will take it to the extreme.

 

Every starting player was 25 and under except for Yaz (27). That team was really young. George Scott, Rico, Yaz, Tony C, Reggie Smith and Hawk. Those were 6 really good to great players that were the real foundation of what made 1967 special and were all just really starting their careers. The only reason that group didn't see sustained success together was because the pitching was very mediocre.

 

To give the majority of the credit to Dick Williams and not the young players that matured and gelled together is just absurd to me.