4/2 Sox at A's

[mvp 78]

Sorry that my mojo sucked.

[Bellhorn04]

Sorry that my mojo sucked.

 

Well, your pitching mojo was good at least.

[mvp 78]

Well, your pitching mojo was good at least.

 

That mph tho.

[Thunder]

I would rather have Sale be hurt and miss significant time than have this be the new norm. Something was seriously wrong with him. Not just his velocity, but also his tempo.

[Slasher9]

That mph tho.

 

hahahahaq. that NS sig quote. your troll level is pro.

[TylerD]

First series our pitching was awful. This series we can’t buy a run for the life of us. Wasted a great performance by Sale.

[mvp 78]

I would rather have Sale be hurt and miss significant time than have this be the new norm. Something was seriously wrong with him. Not just his velocity, but also his tempo.

 

Ah, no.

[mvp 78]

hahahahaq. that NS sig quote. your troll level is pro.

 

Great song.

[TylerD]

I would rather have Sale be hurt and miss significant time than have this be the new norm. Something was seriously wrong with him. Not just his velocity, but also his tempo.

 

What?!?!?!?!

 

The guys velocity was down no doubt but come on. Outside of that first run he went 5 shut out innings and his last 3 innings went quickly as lightning. I believe a total of 16 pitches thrown in innings 4 and 5. Can’t remember 6. If he can do that every time he is out I want him out there. Believe it or not there is more to Sale than just the fast ball.

 

Yes I agree if it’s some serious injury then I don’t want to play him but I really don’t think it is. He was playing lights out after that first inning. That’s nonsense talk. Sorry don’t agree what so ever.

[Thunder]

I went to bed after the 3rd inning, so I didn't witness first hand how dominating he ended up being. Maybe my statement was hyperbole. I'm just concerned because a diminished fastball means that guys can wait for that pitch and then jump all over it, like Seattle did on Opening Day.

[TylerD]

I went to bed after the 3rd inning, so I didn't witness first hand how dominating he ended up being. Maybe my statement was hyperbole. I'm just concerned because a diminished fastball means that guys can wait for that pitch and then jump all over it, like Seattle did on Opening Day.

 

I agree, he will run into trouble more without that 97 plus fast ball..... A lot of good hitting teams might give him trouble. But it's tough to rest a guy when he played as good as he did last night. If he has another game like he did against Seattle then I will really start to be concerned. Hard to believe his velocity has gone down that much, but that breaking ball was working wonders for him.

[jung]

What?!?!?!?!

 

The guys velocity was down no doubt but come on. Outside of that first run he went 5 shut out innings and his last 3 innings went quickly as lightning. I believe a total of 16 pitches thrown in innings 4 and 5. Can’t remember 6. If he can do that every time he is out I want him out there. Believe it or not there is more to Sale than just the fast ball.

 

Yes I agree if it’s some serious injury then I don’t want to play him but I really don’t think it is. He was playing lights out after that first inning. That’s nonsense talk. Sorry don’t agree what so ever.

 

Not trying to put words in the other poster's keyboard but anybody that thinks that Sale can quickly convert from what he was last year and the bulk of his career to what he was doing last night needs his head examined. If not for his competitive nature I am not even convinced he could have done it last night. He struggled mightily and that by itself will take its toll. His pace was almost Price-like. What we saw last night might well be where Sale is going. But its not like turning on and off a light switch. If Sale's physical attributes are at the heart of this change, as in aging and wear, then he might make some number of starts this year and will likely get some wins this year. But be the force we were hoping for.......I highly doubt it.

 

If Sale is groping for a means to make starts early in the season while not taxing his arm fully intending to be the Chris Sale we have grown to appreciate later in the year that might be doable. But it still takes you back to the same place. He is clearly learning as he goes. He is either learning to live with reduced physical capacity or he is learning how to live with trying to save himself from reduced physical capacity later in the season by pitching this way early in the season. Either way it amounts to about the same thing with the exception that if it is the latter and not the former he might be better suited to being the Chris Sale we need later in the season.

 

The last possibility in Sale's case is the one I find least likely....that being that Cora simply did not allow him even enough work in ST to have worked out in advance how he wanted to pitch early in the season leaving him to learn on the fly now. I just don't see a pitcher of his calibre allowing that to happen to himself no matter who is managing.

[mvp 78]

Not trying to put words in the other poster's keyboard but anybody that thinks that Sale can quickly convert from what he was last year and the bulk of his career to what he was doing last night needs his head examined. If not for his competitive nature I am not even convinced he could have done it last night. He struggled mightily and that by itself will take its toll. His pace was almost Price-like. What we saw last night might well be where Sale is going. But its not like turning on and off a light switch. If Sale's physical attributes are at the heart of this change, as in aging and wear, then he might make some number of starts this year and will likely get some wins this year. But be the force we were hoping for.......I highly doubt it.

 

If Sale is groping for a means to make starts early in the season while not taxing his arm fully intending to be the Chris Sale we have grown to appreciate later in the year that might be doable. But it still takes you back to the same place. He is clearly learning as he goes. He is either learning to live with reduced physical capacity or he is learning how to live with trying to save himself from reduced physical capacity later in the season by pitching this way early in the season. Either way it amounts to about the same thing with the exception that if it is the latter and not the former he might be better suited to being the Chris Sale we need later in the season.

 

The last possibility in Sale's case is the one I find least likely....that being that Cora simply did not allow him even enough work in ST to have worked out in advance how he wanted to pitch early in the season leaving him to learn on the fly now. I just don't see a pitcher of his calibre allowing that to happen to himself no matter who is managing.

 

I disagree that the last scenario is the least likely. I think it's least likely that he's just like "oh I'll pitch by hook or by crook now to save myself for September." That goes against everything Sale has been touted as (i.e. a gamer).

[BillyWilliams]

I disagree that the last scenario is the least likely. I think it's least likely that he's just like "oh I'll pitch by hook or by crook now to save myself for September." That goes against everything Sale has been touted as (i.e. a gamer).

 

Agreed, I think the notion that he's saving himself for later in the season is preposterous.

[mvp 78]

Agreed, I think the notion that he's saving himself for later in the season is preposterous.

 

In order of likelihood IMO:

50%: his ST was just too short and he's not ready (seems likely since all the other starters were held back in ST and they all got smoked recently)

25%: injury/tired arm from 2018

15%: SSS (weather, woke up on the wrong side of the bed, etc.)

5%: intentionally saving himself for later in the season

5%: pitchers are mad that Leon is in AAA

[jung]

It’s just too early in the season to know exactly what’s going on. Whether it’s injury, rust, change of style to save his arm but he was very good after that first inning. His tempo was slow yes I agree. Who cares. It worked for him...... like I said before if he struggles like he did against Seattle the. I will come back and say I was wrong. Something is definitely up with Sale. But as of last night he didn’t have the fast ball he usually does, and his tempo was a bit slower. But the slider and breaking ball was awesome especially in the 4th and 5th inning. He looked calm out there especially once he settled down and started to control the ball a bit. Maybe without the fast ball he needs to slow the tempo down with his slider and breaking ball. Once he did that his control seemed much better. I’ll go get my head examined now.

 

You guys might want to check out Sale's 2018 starts before giving up on trying to save himself. The first three months of the season he went 6, 6, 6 for starts. The last three months he went 4, 1, 4 for starts. He literally started twice as many games in the first 3 months as the last 3. He pitched 116 innings in the first half and 42 innings in the second. He averaged 6.44 innings per start in the 1st half and 4.66 innings per start in the 2nd half even over just 9 games!

 

That followed a 2017 where Sale went 18 starts in the first half and 14 in the second logging 127 innings over the 1st half for a 7.05 innings per start average and 86 innings over the 14 starts of his 2nd half for an average of 6.14 innings per start.

 

So Sale made 5 less starts in 2018 than 2017 and the 2017 trend continued sharply down in 2018. Whether they simply did not give Sale enough work in ST and/or have left him trying to figure out how to pitch this way now, it again just about amounts to the same thing....trying to save him early in the season based on two seasons of results as he enters his 30's.

 

Of the 5 rotation guys I would say Price started the season most looking like the Price we would have expected (a good sign). ERod next looked like the guy we would have expected (not a good sign). Nat is next IMO as his pitches looked like his pitches. His motion looked like his motion. Same for arm angle. He was just wild in the strike zone and got blasted. I can't actually tell you what Rick looked like as he was in and out of his start so fast that if you went to make a bourbon on the rocks, you missed it. So I won't hazard a guess on Rick. Sale IMO looked less like the Sale we would have expected in pace, pitch location, pitch type by volume, velo....you name it. The only thing that matches up to the Sale that we would have expected was his compete level which is always through the roof and still is. In fact he lived off it in the Oakland start. So I would strongly suggest Sale is learning to live with something and regardless of why, he was not able to figure it out during ST.

 

The thing that would make the most sense is that Management does not want to continue the 2017 and 2018 trend with Sale and I DON"T BLAME THEM!

Edited April 3, 2019 by jung

[BillyWilliams]

You guys might want to check out Sale's 2018 starts before giving up on trying to save himself. The first three months of the season he went 6, 6, 6 for starts. The last three months he went 4, 1, 4 for starts. He literally started twice as many games in the first 3 months as the last 3. He pitched 116 innings in the first half and 42 innings in the second. He averaged 6.44 innings per start in the 1st half and 4.66 innings per start in the 2nd half even over just 9 games!

 

That followed a 2017 where Sale went 18 starts in the first half and 14 in the second logging 127 innings over the 1st half for a 7.05 innings per start average and 86 innings over the 14 starts of his 2nd half for an average of 6.14 innings per start.

 

So Sale made 5 less starts in 2018 than 2017 and the 2017 trend continued sharply down in 2018. Whether they simply did not give Sale enough work in ST and/or have left him trying to figure out how to pitch this way now, it again just about amounts to the same thing....trying to save him early in the season based on two seasons of results as he enters his 30's.

 

Of the 5 rotation guys I would say Price started the season most looking like the Price we would have expected (a good sign). ERod next looked like the guy we would have expected (not a good sign). Nat is next IMO as his pitches looked like his pitches. His motion looked like his motion. Same for arm angle. He was just wild in the strike zone and got blasted. I can't actually tell you what Rick looked like as he was in and out of his start so fast that if you went to make a bourbon on the rocks, you missed it. So I won't hazard a guess on Rick. Sale IMO looked less like the Sale we would have expected in pace, pitch location, pitch type by volume, velo....you name it. The only thing that matches up to the Sale that we would have expected was his compete level which is always through the roof and still is. In fact he lived off it in the Oakland start. So I would strongly suggest Sale is learning to live with something and regardless of why, he was not able to figure it out during ST.

 

The thing that would make the most sense is that Management does not want to continue the 2017 and 2018 trend with Sale and I DON"T BLAME THEM!

 

Limiting sale's innings to save some bullets for later in the year would make sense to me.

 

Telling him to pitch at 89mph to save his arm doesn't..........

[mvp 78]

You guys might want to check out Sale's 2018 starts before giving up on trying to save himself. The first three months of the season he went 6, 6, 6 for starts. The last three months he went 4, 1, 4 for starts. He literally started twice as many games in the first 3 months as the last 3. He pitched 116 innings in the first half and 42 innings in the second. He averaged 6.44 innings per start in the 1st half and 4.66 innings per start in the 2nd half even over just 9 games!

 

That followed a 2017 where Sale went 18 starts in the first half and 14 in the second logging 127 innings over the 1st half for a 7.05 innings per start average and 86 innings over the 14 starts of his 2nd half for an average of 6.14 innings per start.

 

So Sale made 5 less starts in 2018 than 2017 and the 2017 trend continued sharply down in 2018. Whether they simply did not give Sale enough work in ST and/or have left him trying to figure out how to pitch this way now, it again just about amounts to the same thing....trying to save him early in the season based on two seasons of results as he enters his 30's.

 

Of the 5 rotation guys I would say Price started the season most looking like the Price we would have expected (a good sign). ERod next looked like the guy we would have expected (not a good sign). Nat is next IMO as his pitches looked like his pitches. His motion looked like his motion. Same for arm angle. He was just wild in the strike zone and got blasted. I can't actually tell you what Rick looked like as he was in and out of his start so fast that if you went to make a bourbon on the rocks, you missed it. So I won't hazard a guess on Rick. Sale IMO looked less like the Sale we would have expected in pace, pitch location, pitch type by volume, velo....you name it. The only thing that matches up to the Sale that we would have expected was his compete level which is always through the roof and still is. In fact he lived off it in the Oakland start. So I would strongly suggest Sale is learning to live with something and regardless of why, he was not able to figure it out during ST.

 

The thing that would make the most sense is that Management does not want to continue the 2017 and 2018 trend with Sale and I DON"T BLAME THEM!

 

This doesn't make any more sense than just saying he made a deal with the devil in 2018.

[TylerD]

You guys might want to check out Sale's 2018 starts before giving up on trying to save himself. The first three months of the season he went 6, 6, 6 for starts. The last three months he went 4, 1, 4 for starts. He literally started twice as many games in the first 3 months as the last 3. He pitched 116 innings in the first half and 42 innings in the second. He averaged 6.44 innings per start in the 1st half and 4.66 innings per start in the 2nd half even over just 9 games!

 

That followed a 2017 where Sale went 18 starts in the first half and 14 in the second logging 127 innings over the 1st half for a 7.05 innings per start average and 86 innings over the 14 starts of his 2nd half for an average of 6.14 innings per start.

 

So Sale made 5 less starts in 2018 than 2017 and the 2017 trend continued sharply down in 2018. Whether they simply did not give Sale enough work in ST and/or have left him trying to figure out how to pitch this way now, it again just about amounts to the same thing....trying to save him early in the season based on two seasons of results as he enters his 30's.

 

Of the 5 rotation guys I would say Price started the season most looking like the Price we would have expected (a good sign). ERod next looked like the guy we would have expected (not a good sign). Nat is next IMO as his pitches looked like his pitches. His motion looked like his motion. Same for arm angle. He was just wild in the strike zone and got blasted. I can't actually tell you what Rick looked like as he was in and out of his start so fast that if you went to make a bourbon on the rocks, you missed it. So I won't hazard a guess on Rick. Sale IMO looked less like the Sale we would have expected in pace, pitch location, pitch type by volume, velo....you name it. The only thing that matches up to the Sale that we would have expected was his compete level which is always through the roof and still is. In fact he lived off it in the Oakland start. So I would strongly suggest Sale is learning to live with something and regardless of why, he was not able to figure it out during ST.

 

The thing that would make the most sense is that Management does not want to continue the 2017 and 2018 trend with Sale and I DON"T BLAME THEM!

Good post, I agree with all of that actually.

[jung]

Limiting sale's innings to save some bullets for later in the year would make sense to me.

 

Telling him to pitch at 89mph to save his arm doesn't..........

 

Sale's FB actually started out at low 90's in Oakland....91, topping out at 92 unless I missed a 93 as Fangraphs has his average at FB average at 91.6. Then that actually fell of to 88! So I don't think he was trying to throw 88. He sure as heck was not trying to throw 95 or 96 either. Actually Sale's velo was down for all the pitches he is throwing which makes sense. Rarely does just the FB velo fall off. It is just the most obvious one. The one we are always looking at.

 

Sale is not throwing as many FB's as he was at the start of his career (discounting his first season as 60% FB's seems a number that was never sustainable for him) and he is nowhere near his normal FB velocity. In fact over the two starts of 2019, its the lowest average FB velo of his career. At least according to the Fangraphs stats which I think come from Brooks Baseball's pitchfx, he is off about 5 mph on each of his pitches. Sale is throwing way more Changeups than ever before (the pitch de jur of this 5 year period for all starters) and almost no two seams (the disappearing pitch of this 5 year period) and about 10% fewer 4 seams than we would see in an average Sale year. The pitch mix makes sense except the reduced FB's of any type being career lows and the velo across all pitches is troubling.

 

We will know soon enough. If he ever throws 95-96 again I suspect it will be because he is trying to.

Edited April 3, 2019 by jung

[mvp 78]

@redsoxstats

 

On @weei Cora says no matter what is being said the Sox need to be disciplined with their pitching plan. The pitchers understand how we want things to run.

[mvp 78]

@ByChrisMason

 

Steve Pearce will probably play tomorrow and Swihart is catching Eovaldi tonight, per Cora on @WEEI

[mvp 78]

@alexspeier

 

Cora says he’ll still give days off on first road trip to all of his everyday players. ‘You’ve got to be disclipined.’ Bogaerts will be off today, with Holt starting at SS.

[TylerD]

@alexspeier

 

Cora says he’ll still give days off on first road trip to all of his everyday players. ‘You’ve got to be disclipined.’ Bogaerts will be off today, with Holt starting at SS.

 

At this point what does it matter? We have gone 2 and a half games putting up 1 run and 2 straight games with 0 runs. The offense can't get any worse. Eovaldi might have to go 9 scoreless innings for us to have a shot tonight. Yes I'm being a negative nancy I know.

[Slasher9]

tonight is a shoebox bet. W. guaranteed.

[mvp 78]

At this point what does it matter? We have gone 2 and a half games putting up 1 run and 2 straight games with 0 runs. The offense can't get any worse. Eovaldi might have to go 9 scoreless innings for us to have a shot tonight. Yes I'm being a negative nancy I know.

 

They averaged 6 runs per game over the first 4 games though.

[TylerD]

They averaged 6 runs per game over the first 4 games though.

 

Well hopefully they bring that back. Resting a player or two shouldn’t be the reason our offense sucks. We have a very good team based on many players not just one or two. But judging from the last couple of games I don’t think it will make a huge deal if we decide to rest Xander. This could just be one of those weird series where 1 or 2 runs is all it takes to win. Good pitching tonight from Eovaldi and HOPEFULLY not being shut out a third night in a row will result in a win.

[mvp 78]

Well hopefully they bring that back. Resting a player or two shouldn’t be the reason our offense sucks. We have a very good team based on many players not just one or two. But judging from the last couple of games I don’t think it will make a huge deal if we decide to rest Xander. This could just be one of those weird series where 1 or 2 runs is all it takes to win. Good pitching tonight from Eovaldi and HOPEFULLY not being shut out a third night in a row will result in a win.

 

Estrada is the right opponent. In his three starts against the Sox last year, he had an ERA near 8 (13 runs in 14 2/3 innings).

[TylerD]

Estrada is the right opponent. In his three starts against the Sox last year, he had an ERA near 8 (13 runs in 14 2/3 innings).

 

True!

 

If we don’t hit tonight we have bigger problems than worrying about Sales velocity.

[illinoisredsox]

someone check the record books...

has the reigning World Champion ever been booed at their own ring ceremony? we just might see it......

 

Maybe Boog Powell?