A Realistic View at 2019: Part I

[notin]

No, but what is the history of SS's recovering from TJS?

 

 

Unclear.

 

Zack Cozart had it in 2011, but he was only 11 games into his career, so we have no real baseline.

 

Corey Seager had the procedure last year. So we shall see.

 

Gleyber Torres has the procedure in the minors in 2017. He hasn’t played much shortstop since.

 

I can’t find any other shortstops. So the waters might be uncharted...

[moonslav59]

Unclear.

 

Zack Cozart had it in 2011, but he was only 11 games into his career, so we have no real baseline.

 

Corey Seager had the procedure last year. So we shall see.

 

Gleyber Torres has the procedure in the minors in 2017. He hasn’t played much shortstop since.

 

I can’t find any other shortstops. So the waters might be uncharted...

 

That was kind of my point. The Yanks will certainly have to "wait and see."

 

Thanks for the history and lack there of.

 

I just find it a bit annoying how Yankee fans always assume the worst on Sox injuries and struggles, but I rarely see the same concern on Yank injuries.

 

[Slasher9]

A SS throws the ball more than a Pitcher on a day in day out basis.

[moonslav59]

A SS throws the ball more than a Pitcher on a day in day out basis.

 

Some longer throws.

 

Some off balance throws.

 

Warn up & middle of inning throws.

 

Yes.

 

(Note: I'm not doubting Didi's ability to comeback at 100%, but there is so little history to show how easy or hard it might be.)

 

The guy can hit, so he'll have a job regardless of his throwing arm's recovery.

[jacksonianmarch]

Of course, but I believe position players have a much easier time recovering from TJS than pitchers do.

 

Position players usually need 6-9 months to recover from TJS. Pitchers need 12-15 months. The two reasons for this are the breaking balls and the endurance. Pitchers post TJS can throw hard at around the 9 month mark. Didi’s timetable has always been 6-9 months and with Tulo around, it’ll probably be closer to 9

[Carpin]

Here is a very nice article I read this morning regarding TJS recovery time for infielders (no 1B), still several things to consider, for example Furcal was at the end of his career, Velarde, Molitor and Johnson returned the first day of the season, so their comeback could be longer than needed, etc

 

Here is the list, but I recommend to read the article to understand the dates.

 

 

SURGERY DATE RETURN DATE DAYS TO RETURN

Rafael Furcal March 13th, 2013 June 13th, 2014 409

Randy Velarde April 8th, 1997 May 13th, 1998 400

Paul Molitor May 21st, 1984 April 9th, 1985 323

Kelly Johnson June 1st, 2006 April 2nd, 2007 305

Cesar Izturis Sept. 16th, 2005 June 20th, 2006 277

Mike Aviles July 7th, 2009 April 8th, 2010 275

Ray Olmedo Nov. 9th, 2004 June 28th, 2005 231

Tony Womack Oct. 6th, 2003 April 5th, 2004 182

T.J. Rivera Sept. 14th, 2017 Pending

Corey Seager May 4th, 2018 Pending

 

http://riveraveblues.com/2019/02/partial-contract-season-sir-didi-2019-season-preview-184234/

[jacksonianmarch]

The only two who fit close to the timeline are Izturis and Womack. Womack made it by opening day, Izturis by June. I still think Didi returns in July if Tulo is crushing it. If not, Didi might get pushed to come back in June. Either way, I don’t see how he’s back in april or may

[moonslav59]

The only two who fit close to the timeline are Izturis and Womack. Womack made it by opening day, Izturis by June. I still think Didi returns in July if Tulo is crushing it. If not, Didi might get pushed to come back in June. Either way, I don’t see how he’s back in april or may

 

So, maybe he starts on the 60 day DL?

 

One question, of all those you listed, how many came back the same or with only a little less ability than before the surgery?

[jacksonianmarch]

We have seen from pitchers that guys returning who have no major setbacks will return with improved stuff, so my assumption is there will be no dropoff. Some of the guys on the list were pretty old, so I’m not sure it’s relevant

[jacksonianmarch]

Unclear.

 

Zack Cozart had it in 2011, but he was only 11 games into his career, so we have no real baseline.

 

Corey Seager had the procedure last year. So we shall see.

 

Gleyber Torres has the procedure in the minors in 2017. He hasn’t played much shortstop since.

 

I can’t find any other shortstops. So the waters might be uncharted...

 

Gleyber’s was on his non throwing arm

[notin]

F

So, maybe he starts on the 60 day DL?

 

One question, of all those you listed, how many came back the same or with only a little less ability than before the surgery?

 

If the Yankees are too concerned, they could think out of the box and put Grigorius at third base, reducing the frequency of his throws and giving him a little more time to make them. Then shift Andujar to 1b and put LeMahieu at 2b with Torres at SS and bench Bird/Voit...

[notin]

F

So, maybe he starts on the 60 day DL?

 

One question, of all those you listed, how many came back the same or with only a little less ability than before the surgery?

 

If the Yankees are too concerned, they could think out of the box and put Grigorius at third base, reducing the frequency of his throws and giving him a little more time to make them. Then shift Andujar to 1b and put LeMahieu at 2b with Torres at SS and bench Bird/Voit...

[Bellhorn04]

Gleyber’s was on his non throwing arm

 

How does that even happen?

[notin]

How does that even happen?

 

 

Cinemax...

[Slasher9]

Cinemax...

 

hahahahaha.

[jacksonianmarch]

Cinemax...

 

Gleyber's injury was on a slide into home

[BillyWilliams]

That was kind of my point. The Yanks will certainly have to "wait and see."

 

Thanks for the history and lack there of.

 

I just find it a bit annoying how Yankee fans always assume the worst on Sox injuries and struggles, but I rarely see the same concern on Yank injuries.

 

 

Aside from jacko, who are these other "Yankee fans"?

[BillyWilliams]

Some longer throws.

 

Some off balance throws.

 

Warn up & middle of inning throws.

 

Yes.

 

(Note: I'm not doubting Didi's ability to comeback at 100%, but there is so little history to show how easy or hard it might be.)

 

The guy can hit, so he'll have a job regardless of his throwing arm's recovery.

 

So you think a SS puts more wear and tear on his arm than a pitcher does?

[jacksonianmarch]

slav, you're funny. Assume the worst? This is Tommy John surgery, something that has become something of a routine maintenance surgery for guys who throw the ball a lot. This isn't a shoulder or microfracture surgery. This is a well documented, highly successful surgical procedure with a well established rehab time line

[BillyWilliams]

slav, you're funny. Assume the worst? This is Tommy John surgery, something that has become something of a routine maintenance surgery for guys who throw the ball a lot. This isn't a shoulder or microfracture surgery. This is a well documented, highly successful surgical procedure with a well established rehab time line

 

He used to be a lot better poster who has gradually slid more into the homer/troll persona over time.

[Slasher9]

slav, you're funny. Assume the worst? This is Tommy John surgery, something that has become something of a routine maintenance surgery for guys who throw the ball a lot. This isn't a shoulder or microfracture surgery. This is a well documented, highly successful surgical procedure with a well established rehab time line

 

can you list all the SS that have successfully come back from it?

do you deny that if it was X-bo we were talking about you would be listing the worst case scenarios instead of best case scenarios?

[jacksonianmarch]

I do deny that claim. If it was X-Bo, I would be saying a July return is likely. This is a completely stupid argument. An infielder, who doesn't need to throw breaking pitches and doesn't need to throw full force as much as a pitcher does recover back to baseline faster than a pitcher. This isn't debatable, this is fact

[BillyWilliams]

I do deny that claim. If it was X-Bo, I would be saying a July return is likely. This is a completely stupid argument. An infielder, who doesn't need to throw breaking pitches and doesn't need to throw full force as much as a pitcher does recover back to baseline faster than a pitcher. This isn't debatable, this is fact

 

They are trolling you dude.

 

The simple reason why there isn't a ton of examples of SS's coming back from TJS is the simple fact that it doesn't happen often because SS's don't put the same strain on their arm as a pitcher does. And it stands to reason if they don't put the same strain as a pitcher does that their recovery time is typically shorter, which it is.

 

slav knows this, he's just trolling you.

[Slasher9]

I do deny that claim. If it was X-Bo, I would be saying a July return is likely.

 

fair response. but it would be the first time since i have been reading this board that you didn't list the worst case scenario involving a Boston player.

and i agree with you....a fielder does not put near the strain on his arm that a pitcher does. but he does need to throw the baseball alot more. and that begs the question - since very few fielders have required TJS - what was didi doing wrong in his throwing motion? or does he just have a weak elbow? maybe he will need to move to 2b to have a shorter throw.

[jacksonianmarch]

fair response. but it would be the first time since i have been reading this board that you didn't list the worst case scenario involving a Boston player.

and i agree with you....a fielder does not put near the strain on his arm that a pitcher does. but he does need to throw the baseball alot more. and that begs the question - since very few fielders have required TJS - what was didi doing wrong in his throwing motion? or does he just have a weak elbow? maybe he will need to move to 2b to have a shorter throw.

 

It was an awkward throw from the hole. Everything in orthopedics is about vectors and if you throw a ball from a strange angle, the force can overcome a ligament.

[moonslav59]

So you think a SS puts more wear and tear on his arm than a pitcher does?

 

I already answered, "No," but I'm really not sure about how easy it is for SSs to get back to near 90-100%.

 

Are you?

[moonslav59]

slav, you're funny. Assume the worst? This is Tommy John surgery, something that has become something of a routine maintenance surgery for guys who throw the ball a lot. This isn't a shoulder or microfracture surgery. This is a well documented, highly successful surgical procedure with a well established rehab time line

 

Where's the well-established timeline to 100% recovery for SSs?

 

Look, I'm not saying he won't comeback to 100%, but while there is a pretty good history moat pitchers do comeback after about 1.5 years or so, the history on SSs in largely unknown. Again, I'm not saying it is harder for a SS. I'm saying I don't know.

 

Do you?

[moonslav59]

can you list all the SS that have successfully come back from it?

do you deny that if it was X-bo we were talking about you would be listing the worst case scenarios instead of best case scenarios?

 

That was my other point.

 

Sale is toast.

 

Pedey is toast.

 

Paxton, CC, Didi, Hicks and all other Yankees will be back soon and at 100+%,

[moonslav59]

It was an awkward throw from the hole. Everything in orthopedics is about vectors and if you throw a ball from a strange angle, the force can overcome a ligament.

 

So, I suppose he will never have an "awkward throw" from deep in the hole the rest of his career.

[FredLynn]

I already answered, "No," but I'm really not sure about how easy it is for SSs to get back to near 90-100%.

 

Are you?

 

I doubt that there are any controlled studies to support the hypothesis that SS recover more quickly than pitchers. That said, since both positions are manned by humans with human ulnar collateral ligaments, my guess is that the healing time is similar where healing time means return to 100%. I believe that pitchers take about a year to regain their form (if they ever do-I remember reading somewhere that most guys who have the procedure never regain their velocity). So I would suspect that IF also need a full year. But thats just an unsupported guess.

 

Just one article about a decline in performance post TJ surgery:

 

https://www.drdavidgeier.com/tommy-john-surgery-pitching-suffers/

Edited March 13, 2019 by FredLynn