Cora and Closers

[Maxbialystock]

Exactly. And that is why I don't like judging managerial and general managerial decisions based on results.

 

I thought the Hanley Ramierez contract was a good decision for multiple reasons. But it didn't work out. I also thought the Sandoval contract was stupid from the first minute, although my proposed alternatives on BDC were really a cheaper version of the same ineffectiveness...

 

I rarely, probably never second guess GM decisions simply because I know so little about what's out there.

 

As for managers, I believe in having a lucky manager.

[cp176]

I have said repeatedly that yes, Kimbrel was to a degree horrible in the 9th which led to those 2 runs. He also reduced the margin in game 1 to 1 run when he gave up the dinger (on a knuckle curve) to Judge. But then he struck the next 3 guys for the save.

 

Where you and I part company is that you would have had 2 or 3 guys warming up when Kimbrel took the mound--which would of course have told him you don't trust him and actually expect him to fail, which is a little weird for your ASG closer and completely different from the way Cora had managed the game up to that point. No one was warming up when Porcello came out to pitch the 5th, nor Barnes in the 6th, nor Brasier in the 7th, nor Sale in the 8th. But come the 9th, it's time to castrate your actual closer even though he goes out there with a 3 run lead. Would you seriously have done that?

 

You also never made it clear when exactly you would have pulled Kimbrel, nor who you would have sent in. In fact, it reads as though you might have sent all 2 or 3 relievers out to the mound together--you know strength in numbers.

 

As I have tried to point out, when to pull Kimbrel--if ever--was bound to be tricky because he is the closer and he had that 3 run lead. Would you have pulled him after the first two got on base? If so, you are forgetting Kimbrel struck the next guy out. So, based on what actually happened, we know pulling Kimbrel then would have been wrong. How about after the next guy walked to load the bases?

 

Now you are getting into a really high pressure situation. The Yankees fans were going nuts, absolutely nuts, and doing everything they could to bother Kimbrel. Since you never named who you would actually send in, I'm going to guess that you have no clue who you could be sure could get 2 outs with the bases loaded. And guess what? I don't have a clue either.

 

That's why I'm happy they pay Cora to make those decisions. And may I add that throughout the 9th inning he looked to me to be calm, confident, and, best of all, decisive because he--unlike you and me--was confident he already had the best man on the mound.

 

I am more than happy to admit that Kimbrel in fact hit the next Yankee, bringing home a run (score now 4-2) and leaving the bases loaded. Not good. But then he got the next two guys out to get the save and clinch the ALDS. Right guy in the right place at the right time despite the horrible start to the inning.

 

Kimbrel was very lucky to get out of the jam that he put himself into. It took a great play by both Nunez and Pearce to let us escape that one. Yup he was lucky. The way he was throwing it pretty much looked like a recipe for disaster.

[S5Dewey]

Kimbrel was very lucky to get out of the jam that he put himself into. It took a great play by both Nunez and Pearce to let us escape that one. Yup he was lucky. The way he was throwing it pretty much looked like a recipe for disaster.

 

As I said that night, Kimbrel started a fire and then threw gasoline on it. He was lucky 1) That Severino's ball didn't make it to the wall (we're talking about millimeters on the bat) and he was lucky Nunez and Pearce had the ability to make very nice plays to put out the fire. Not all infielders make those plays.

[notin]

as i said that night, kimbrel started a fire and then threw gasoline on it. He was lucky 1) that sanchez's ball didn't make it to the wall (we're talking about millimeters on the bat) and he was lucky nunez and pearce had the ability to make very nice plays to put out the fire. Not all infielders make those plays.

 

ftfy

[S5Dewey]

ftfy

 

Ya.. those "S" names confuse me. Thanks.

[Maxbialystock]

As I said that night, Kimbrel started a fire and then threw gasoline on it. He was lucky 1) That Severino's ball didn't make it to the wall (we're talking about millimeters on the bat) and he was lucky Nunez and Pearce had the ability to make very nice plays to put out the fire. Not all infielders make those plays.

 

Come on. You know better than that. The Yankees did set the MLB record for dingers, but for any given at bat the odds still greatly favor the pitcher not giving up one. Sanchez had 2 dingers in 18 at bats in the ALDS. Terrific. But even he had 9 to 1 odds. Plus the fact that the Yankees got zero dingers in the Bronx. And the fieldable grounder by Torres was what Kombrel wanted. It just turned out to be so weak it was a tough but by no means impossible play. Nunez did not have to barehand it. Had Torres been safe, the score would still have been 4-3.

 

You want lucky? How about Vazquez opposite field dinger in the 4th? Sabathia would tell you the Sox got really lucky with that home plate umpire. Oh, don’t forget the Yankees hitting no dingers the final two games. Given how Sale struggled in September, he was incredibly lucky to go 5.2 innings in game 1.

 

But Kimbrel getting a save with a 3 run lead? The odds had to be very much in his favor. It’s a sad truth we are all going to have to live with—Cora was not an idiot for leaving Kinsler in there.

[cp176]

Come on. You know better than that. The Yankees did set the MLB record for dingers, but for any given at bat the odds still greatly favor the pitcher not giving up one. Sanchez had 2 dingers in 18 at bats in the ALDS. Terrific. But even he had 9 to 1 odds. Plus the fact that the Yankees got zero dingers in the Bronx. And the fieldable grounder by Torres was what Kombrel wanted. It just turned out to be so weak it was a tough but by no means impossible play. Nunez did not have to barehand it. Had Torres been safe, the score would still have been 4-3.

 

You want lucky? How about Vazquez opposite field dinger in the 4th? Sabathia would tell you the Sox got really lucky with that home plate umpire. Oh, don’t forget the Yankees hitting no dingers the final two games. Given how Sale struggled in September, he was incredibly lucky to go 5.2 innings in game 1.

 

But Kimbrel getting a save with a 3 run lead? The odds had to be very much in his favor. It’s a sad truth we are all going to have to live with—Cora was not an idiot for leaving Kinsler in there.

 

Ok Max - so how about this - the Yankees got so so lucky to get within one run of the Sox and it is a good thing that Nunez and Pearce did what they did.

Vazquez little fly ball to right does not mean much to me with respect to how much game time he should get moving forward. I'm happy that he hit the ball and am particularly happy that he was in Yankee stadium when he hit it.

[moonslav59]

One big reason the Yanks broke the team HR record is their short RF. The fact that Vaz hit one there is just payback.... not luck.

[fxkatt]

The only thing I know about Kimbrel's inning is that it was a failure. And, given the context of this specific game, plus that from the 5th inning on we were supposed to hold our breath till the Savior arrived in the 9th, this was not only an absolutely nerve-racking failure, but a very major disappointment.

 

To me this huge win felt a hell of a lot like a loss. I'm sorry, throwing wild balls when you have a 3 run (max for a save) lead in your biggest save opportunity of this season, is downright infuriating.

[dgalehouse]

The only thing I know about Kimbrel's inning is that it was a failure. And, given the context of this specific game, plus that from the 5th inning on we were supposed to hold our breath till the Savior arrived in the 9th, this was not only an absolutely nerve-racking failure, but a very major disappointment.

 

To me this huge win felt a hell of a lot like a loss. I'm sorry, throwing wild balls when you have a 3 run (max for a save) lead in your biggest save opportunity of this season, is downright infuriating.

 

Scoreboard.

[fxkatt]

Scoreboard.

 

I'll get over it... maybe tonight with K aboard in the 9th with a 4-3 lead. He comes through. He's redeemed and hey we not only just beat the Astros but, in my mind, the Yankees too (now I enjoy it).

 

You have to admit, it's hard to hug a scoreboard.

[sk7326]

The only thing I know about Kimbrel's inning is that it was a failure. And, given the context of this specific game, plus that from the 5th inning on we were supposed to hold our breath till the Savior arrived in the 9th, this was not only an absolutely nerve-racking failure, but a very major disappointment.

 

To me this huge win felt a hell of a lot like a loss. I'm sorry, throwing wild balls when you have a 3 run (max for a save) lead in your biggest save opportunity of this season, is downright infuriating.

 

Nothing like beating the Yankees four times in a row in playoff games in the Bronx to deliver a feeling of failure.

[Bellhorn04]

Nothing like beating the Yankees four times in a row in playoff games in the Bronx to deliver a feeling of failure.

 

Great point.

[notin]

The only thing I know about Kimbrel's inning is that it was a failure. And, given the context of this specific game, plus that from the 5th inning on we were supposed to hold our breath till the Savior arrived in the 9th, this was not only an absolutely nerve-racking failure, but a very major disappointment.

 

To me this huge win felt a hell of a lot like a loss. I'm sorry, throwing wild balls when you have a 3 run (max for a save) lead in your biggest save opportunity of this season, is downright infuriating.

 

Time to move on and get over it. Kimbrell is going to have bad games. Sometimes it costs the Sox a win, sometimes it doesn’t. The funny thing is, the same thing can be said about his good games.

 

Let it go. I can promise you Kimbrell already has....

[S5Dewey]

One big reason the Yanks broke the team HR record is their short RF. The fact that Vaz hit one there is just payback.... not luck.

 

This.^^

 

It was exactly what I was thinking when he hit it.

[fxkatt]

Great point.

 

Except I never said "feeling a failure." I said that specific win "felt a lot like a loss." That doesn't make me feel like a failure.

[Jason33]

I definitely would not have put Price in there not in that big situation. Heck I don’t agree with Price starting game two of the ALCS.

[Maxbialystock]

The only thing I know about Kimbrel's inning is that it was a failure. And, given the context of this specific game, plus that from the 5th inning on we were supposed to hold our breath till the Savior arrived in the 9th, this was not only an absolutely nerve-racking failure, but a very major disappointment.

 

To me this huge win felt a hell of a lot like a loss. I'm sorry, throwing wild balls when you have a 3 run (max for a save) lead in your biggest save opportunity of this season, is downright infuriating.

 

Trust me. Heck, trust the rest of us. Winning a 2d straight game at Yankee Stadium to take the ALDS was not a failure. In fact, that game and last night's game and maybe gave 1 of the ALDS--all saves by Kimbrel in which he gave up 1 or 2 runs--are downright liberating. He's being paid a lot to close and now wants a long-term contract to stay here or move on. I never wanted him to have a long term contract, and now it appears DD won't want to offer him one.

[Maxbialystock]

Back to the title of this thread--Cora and the bullpen. I do not ever remember a Sox manager with a bullpen as inconsistent as this one who somehow keeps finding ways to win.

 

His ace was supposed to be Wright, who was huge in September, but Wright's knee went sour.

 

Now Kimbrel the ace closer, paid a king's ransom, is looking pretty darn shaky.

 

I personally would never have kept Kelly on the postseason roster, but Cora did and so far it has paid off.

 

He has already used starters twice--or is it three times?--in relief and all of them (both of them?) did well.

 

Last night Price had 2 outs and 2 men on base in the 5th, and Cora did not hesitate to pull him.

 

To me anyone who complains about Cora's handling of the bullpen doesn't understand baseball.

[Bellhorn04]

Back to the title of this thread--Cora and the bullpen. I do not ever remember a Sox manager with a bullpen as inconsistent as this one who somehow keeps finding ways to win.

 

His ace was supposed to be Wright, who was huge in September, but Wright's knee went sour.

 

Now Kimbrel the ace closer, paid a king's ransom, is looking pretty darn shaky.

 

I personally would never have kept Kelly on the postseason roster, but Cora did and so far it has paid off.

 

He has already used starters twice--or is it three times?--in relief and all of them (both of them?) did well.

 

Last night Price had 2 outs and 2 men on base in the 5th, and Cora did not hesitate to pull him.

 

To me anyone who complains about Cora's handling of the bullpen doesn't understand baseball.

 

Solid post Max.

[dgalehouse]

Back to the title of this thread--Cora and the bullpen. I do not ever remember a Sox manager with a bullpen as inconsistent as this one who somehow keeps finding ways to win.

 

His ace was supposed to be Wright, who was huge in September, but Wright's knee went sour.

 

Now Kimbrel the ace closer, paid a king's ransom, is looking pretty darn shaky.

 

I personally would never have kept Kelly on the postseason roster, but Cora did and so far it has paid off.

 

He has already used starters twice--or is it three times?--in relief and all of them (both of them?) did well.

 

Last night Price had 2 outs and 2 men on base in the 5th, and Cora did not hesitate to pull him.

 

To me anyone who complains about Cora's handling of the bullpen doesn't understand baseball.

 

Maxie , This forum has no shortage of people who don't understand baseball.

[moonslav59]

Part of being a great manager is to get marginal players to play over their heads by finding or creating roles or situations they can be successful in.

 

Other than Kimbrel, our pen looks like a joke, on paper, and even Kimbrel has struggled. Despite all that, our pen still ranked 10th in team WAR. They've also held their own vs the best pens in MLB, so far, in the playoffs.

 

Cora is a big reason we have gotten this far. Those criticizing him would criticize any manager for anything that does not work. Every bad play, bad game and loss is always the managers fault.

[notin]

Part of being a great manager is to get marginal players to play over their heads by finding or creating roles or situations they can be successful in.

 

Other than Kimbrel, our pen looks like a joke, on paper, and even Kimbrel has struggled. Despite all that, our pen still ranked 10th in team WAR. They've also held their own vs the best pens in MLB, so far, in the playoffs.

 

Cora is a big reason we have gotten this far. Those criticizing him would criticize any manager for anything that does not work. Every bad play, bad game and loss is always the managers fault.

 

 

Exactly.

 

I live in Chicago where I know Cubs' fans who think Maddon needs to be fired because Terrance Gore struck out in the WC game. Huh?

[Kimmi]

Back to the title of this thread--Cora and the bullpen. I do not ever remember a Sox manager with a bullpen as inconsistent as this one who somehow keeps finding ways to win.

 

His ace was supposed to be Wright, who was huge in September, but Wright's knee went sour.

 

Now Kimbrel the ace closer, paid a king's ransom, is looking pretty darn shaky.

 

I personally would never have kept Kelly on the postseason roster, but Cora did and so far it has paid off.

 

He has already used starters twice--or is it three times?--in relief and all of them (both of them?) did well.

 

Last night Price had 2 outs and 2 men on base in the 5th, and Cora did not hesitate to pull him.

 

To me anyone who complains about Cora's handling of the bullpen doesn't understand baseball.

 

Well said Max.

 

Cora is not always right, and no manager is, but his moves seem to work out way more often than not.

 

He has had me scratching my head a few times, but with the success that he's had, he gets the benefit of the doubt, even if a certain move goes awry.

[Kimmi]

Exactly.

 

I live in Chicago where I know Cubs' fans who think Maddon needs to be fired because Terrance Gore struck out in the WC game. Huh?

 

OTOH, there is Doofus Boone, who probably is at fault more often than not.