Cora and Closers

[TylerD]

Yes, Kelly was indeed warming in the pen.

 

I don't believe for a second that Kelly wanted to come into that game in the ninth inning with all that pressure. He is a professional and would do so when called up, but he would have made just as many errors as Kimbrel if not more.

[Kimmi]

I don't believe for a second that Kelly wanted to come into that game in the ninth inning with all that pressure. He is a professional and would do so when called up, but he would have made just as many errors as Kimbrel if not more.

 

I'm not saying that Kelly was the answer there, just that Cora had him warming in the pen. If Torres had reached, I think Kelly was coming in.

[devildavid]

I am absolutely on board with everything in the OP. It was 2003 all over again. Cora should have had two pitchers warming in the pen at the start of the ninth. This was not managed with the urgency required for a clinching game. Overall I think Cora is a good to sometimes great manager. But leaving Kimbrel out there with his inability to find the strike zone was a huge mistake. If not for some Yankees hitters chasing bad pitches and a fantastic bang bang play by Nunez and Pearce the Yankees would have stolen a game that should never have gotten so close. Kimbrel does not have to close out every win; any pitcher who is able to throw strikes and get outs should be utilized to do the job as the game situation dictates.

[devildavid]

You use who you have used all year. Kimbrel. And he was excellent in game 1 outside of that one home run. He shut down 3 batters after that in no time. There was no sign saying Kimbrel wasn’t ready to go. Maybe now that he has a post season win under his belt he will build off of that and be that much better. Hell you could tell Kelly didn’t want to come out. When the Sox won he cheered harder than anyone. Probably because he was scared shitless of coming out and blowing the game.

 

Kelly isn't scared of anything. Every pitcher in our pen has the guts to come out and get outs when called on.

[Maxbialystock]

All due respect to dannycater, but no way, no how can a fault Cora for the 9th last night.

 

Kimbrel was the right guy despite the 2 walks and the HBP. The first runner was a 4 ball K to Judge, horrible, but it was Judge; 2d runner was Gregorious with a seeing eye single to the right, Judge to 2B; but then he K's Stanton for out 1; then another BB but on a 3-2 count to Voit; then the HBP on a knuckle ball in the dirt that kicked left, scoring 1 run; then out #2 on a sac fly to LF, runner on 2B not advancing, score now 4-3 but 2 outs and no one on 3B; finally the soft ground out to Nunez who made a great play and Pearce an even greater one. Recalling that sequence again convinces me Cora had good reason to stay with Kimbrel, who was not panicking but did struggle with control.

 

More importantly, I honestly believe no one else in the bullpen could have gone out there and done better once the bases were loaded with 1 out and the score 4-2. In fact, Kimbrel got the next 2 guys out. But pick another point in the sequence, say, men on 1st and 2d and no one out. Kimbrel actually struck the next guy out, so no way a new guy would have done that better. Now comes the walk on a 3-2 count to load the bases, lead still 4-2. Here I would argue any other Sox pitcher coming in would have melted like the wicked witch of the west. Ditto after Walker got the HBP, scoring a run and leaving the bases loaded with 1 out.

 

And this. I don't know about you, but at home I was in a complete panic. But Cora wasn't. He stayed cool while assessing the situation and made a conscious choice based on what he knows about Kimbrel, the bullpen, and the flow of the game. I say this because, had Kimbrel given up a dinger at some point--or even if Torres grounder had resulted in a Nunez throwing error and the ball going to RF and allowing 2 runners to score and the Yankees to in--I would still be arguing I was and am happy with Cora's decisions. I think the guy really has a feel for the game and for this team that none of us comes close to having.

 

And this. Way back in June in what became Wright's last start, he got killed and gave up 10 runs. I spent the next 3 or 4 days excoriating Cora for leaving Wright in. It made no difference that Sox won that one, I think 14-11 or something. Ever since then, however, I have been reluctant to second guess Cora. And there is no doubt in my mind he managed this ALDS brilliantly despite hitting issues (bottom of the lineup) and a problem bullpen.

[Bellhorn04]

Kimbrel does not have to close out every win; any pitcher who is able to throw strikes and get outs should be utilized to do the job as the game situation dictates.

 

Well of course he didn't have to close out the 16-1 game. But this was a 4-1 game, so he was the obvious choice.

[devildavid]

Well of course he didn't have to close out the 16-1 game. But this was a 4-1 game, so he was the obvious choice.

 

Yes, I have no beef with him starting the ninth, nor does the OP. The beef is with him finishing the ninth seemingly only because he is designated as the closer. There was no urgency or even thinking ahead by Cora at that point. This was a series clinching game. Kimbrel was failing to do his job. Someone should have been warming in in the pen at the start of the inning. Cora should have been proactive instead of putting himself in a spot where he could only be reactive.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, I have no beef with him starting the ninth, nor does the OP. The beef is with him finishing the ninth seemingly only because he is designated as the closer. There was no urgency or even thinking ahead by Cora at that point. This was a series clinching game. Kimbrel was failing to do his job. Someone should have been warming in in the pen at the start of the inning. Cora should have been proactive instead of putting himself in a spot where he could only be reactive.

 

I believe the thinking is that Kimbrel is simply a far better pitcher than Joe Kelly, even when he's off. And if you bring Kelly in, it's going to be into a mess where his chances of succeeding are not great.

 

I guarantee Cora's stomach was churning. It's a situation no manager wants to get in, but it's going to happen sometimes.

[dannycater]

Kimbrel's inning was entirely on Kimbrel. Every part of it. Before the hit by Gregorious, it was Gregorious who instinctively, but actually not smart jumped away from a ball that was going to make it 1st and 2nd. So that's 2 HBP in that inning even if he doesn't get a hit. Sanchez laid into that ball because the fact was that he knew Kimbrel could not be cute anymore. He had to throw him a strike and it was a good swing, Fenway HR actually. Look he got out of it, and lots of closers get out of jams, and it ended well....but you don't not warm up other guys. You don't have to automatically remove a guy after a 1-2-3 inning, and as far I'm concerned Chris Sale should have started the 9th inning with Kimbrel ready to go at a moment's notice. I don't really give a s*** about Game 5 when it's 4-1 in the 9th inning of a clincher at NY. I also don't care at that point about who starts game 1 of the ALCS on a Saturday. Win the game, show a sense of urgency, and think outside the box (which I thought Cora is known for) to do that. That's all folks. Edited October 10, 2018 by dannycater

[dannycater]

To moon's point. The Sox best pitcher is Sale. Sale was sailing, unlike Pedro in 03. Sale is my guy, not shaky Kimbrel at that point too.

[notin]

Kimbrel does not have to close out every win; any pitcher who is able to throw strikes and get outs should be utilized to do the job as the game situation dictates.

 

So... you’re saying the act of closing out games could be handled by a group of pitcher? A committee, if you will.

 

Interesting. Makes me wonder why no one has ever tried this “committee of closers” before....

[Bellhorn04]

To moon's point. The Sox best pitcher is Sale. Sale was sailing, unlike Pedro in 03. Sale is my guy, not shaky Kimbrel at that point too.

 

Sale faced the 8-9-1 hitters in the 8th. The 2-3-4 hitters, heart of the order, were due up in the 9th.

 

I think it was a solid plan. Kimbrel just didn't have it.

 

Sale, like Kimbrel, is a great pitcher, but he's human too. In last year's ALDS he gave up 9 runs in 9.2 IP, including 4 long balls.

[TylerD]

Kelly isn't scared of anything. Every pitcher in our pen has the guts to come out and get outs when called on.

 

********.

 

No pitcher wants to come into the 9th inning with that much pressure. Kimbrel was the best suited because he is used to situations like that as he is the closer. Maybe Kelly wasn't shaking in his boots but I guarantee you he was nervous and if you asked him he would probably tell you himself.

[dgalehouse]

Closing a critical post season game with 55,000 screaming , beer spilling fans in Yankee Stadium is just a tad different than most , if not all , situations in baseball. It was clearly affecting Kimbrel , who is one of the best of his era. Nevertheless , Cora was right in going to Kimbrel and he was right in sticking with him. Cora has been right about most things.

[notin]

********.

 

No pitcher wants to come into the 9th inning with that much pressure. Kimbrel was the best suited because he is used to situations like that as he is the closer. Maybe Kelly wasn't shaking in his boots but I guarantee you he was nervous and if you asked him he would probably tell you himself.

 

You sure about that? A lot of these super competitive types like pressure. Success under pressure is how legends are made...

[Maxbialystock]

Kimbrel's inning was entirely on Kimbrel. Every part of it. Before the hit by Gregorious, it was Gregorious who instinctively, but actually not smart jumped away from a ball that was going to make it 1st and 2nd. So that's 2 HBP in that inning even if he doesn't get a hit. Sanchez laid into that ball because the fact was that he knew Kimbrel could not be cute anymore. He had to throw him a strike and it was a good swing, Fenway HR actually. Look he got out of it, and lots of closers get out of jams, and it ended well....but you don't not warm up other guys. You don't have to automatically remove a guy after a 1-2-3 inning, and as far I'm concerned Chris Sale should have started the 9th inning with Kimbrel ready to go at a moment's notice. I don't really give a s*** about Game 5 when it's 4-1 in the 9th inning of a clincher at NY. I also don't care at that point about who starts game 1 of the ALCS on a Saturday. Win the game, show a sense of urgency, and think outside the box (which I thought Cora is known for) to do that. That's all folks.

 

Meh. I don't want a "sense of urgency," but I do want a manager who makes good decisions in a timely manner. Take last night, for example. Porcello went 5 innings and only threw 68 pitches while giving up just 1 run. Nevertheless, Cora brought in Brasier and then Barnes who covered the 6th and 7th innings while keeping that 4-1 lead. For the 8th Cora brought in Sale which cause a huge uproar on talksox. The temerity! Our ace who would also have to start in two days if we lost relieving! But it worked like a charm and gave Sale a little extra confidence at the same time. That was also a superb example of thinking outside the box despite the caterwauling on talksox. Finally the 9th, which has been Kimbrel's inning almost the entire season when the Sox have a lead of 3 runs or less. It's what he lives for because we've seen it time and time again. As far as I can tell from Kimbrel's game log, Cora pulled him just one time in the 9th--on Sep 26 against the Orioles when they had a good lead. Kimbrel stunk. He walked 3 and hit 1--sound familiar? Cora then brought in Scott who liberated all three Orioles on the bases so that Kimbrell was charged with 4 runs. The most runs Kimbrel has given up in any other game this season is 2.

 

Game 2, the loss at Fenway when Price went sour. Cora pulled him the 2d inning--the 2d inning! That sure sounds like a manager who isn't afraid to make a decision or use his bullpen. And he sent in a good guy, Brasier, who unfortunately--with men on base--immediately gave up a hard single which brought in at least 1 more run. I would argue: good, timely move but with a poor result.

 

To me the inescapable conclusions from the above are:

 

1. Cora is constantly evaluating what's going on and always ready to make an informed decision in a timely manner.

2. He sure as heck isn't afraid to use his bullpen, even one as problematical as this one is.

3. He absolutely, positively doesn't want to give any game away. Thus pulling Price in the 2d and last night sending Sale out to pitch the 8th.

4. He knows Kimbrel and the rest of the bullpen way, way, way better than you do. Last night he made a timely judgment call that Kimbrel in trouble but still in the game was still better than bringing someone else in--at any point in last night's 9th inning.

5. He has a feel for the game that leads to a very high percentage of good decisions that often produce results. And that of course is exactly what happened last night.

[devildavid]

Meh. I don't want a "sense of urgency," but I do want a manager who makes good decisions in a timely manner. Take last night, for example. Porcello went 5 innings and only threw 68 pitches while giving up just 1 run. Nevertheless, Cora brought in Brasier and then Barnes who covered the 6th and 7th innings while keeping that 4-1 lead. For the 8th Cora brought in Sale which cause a huge uproar on talksox. The temerity! Our ace who would also have to start in two days if we lost relieving! But it worked like a charm and gave Sale a little extra confidence at the same time. That was also a superb example of thinking outside the box despite the caterwauling on talksox. Finally the 9th, which has been Kimbrel's inning almost the entire season when the Sox have a lead of 3 runs or less. It's what he lives for because we've seen it time and time again. As far as I can tell from Kimbrel's game log, Cora pulled him just one time in the 9th--on Sep 26 against the Orioles when they had a good lead. Kimbrel stunk. He walked 3 and hit 1--sound familiar? Cora then brought in Scott who liberated all three Orioles on the bases so that Kimbrell was charged with 4 runs. The most runs Kimbrel has given up in any other game this season is 2.

 

Game 2, the loss at Fenway when Price went sour. Cora pulled him the 2d inning--the 2d inning! That sure sounds like a manager who isn't afraid to make a decision or use his bullpen. And he sent in a good guy, Brasier, who unfortunately--with men on base--immediately gave up a hard single which brought in at least 1 more run. I would argue: good, timely move but with a poor result.

 

To me the inescapable conclusions from the above are:

 

1. Cora is constantly evaluating what's going on and always ready to make an informed decision in a timely manner.

2. He sure as heck isn't afraid to use his bullpen, even one as problematical as this one is.

3. He absolutely, positively doesn't want to give any game away. Thus pulling Price in the 2d and last night sending Sale out to pitch the 8th.

4. He knows Kimbrel and the rest of the bullpen way, way, way better than you do. Last night he made a timely judgment call that Kimbrel in trouble but still in the game was still better than bringing someone else in--at any point in last night's 9th inning.

5. He has a feel for the game that leads to a very high percentage of good decisions that often produce results. And that of course is exactly what happened last night.

 

For last nights game, Kimbrel was not better than any other alternative. He came close to blowing the game. Another pitcher could have done a better job. It was a 3 run lead, not really a high pressure situation. The only pressure was due to the batters coming up. After Kimbrel walked Judge, he had demonstrated he was not the right pitcher for the situation. After he gave up a single to Gregorious, he did the same. After Kimbrel walked Voit to load the bases he demonstrated he was not the right pitcher for the situation because he put the tying run on base. After Kimbrel hit Walker with a pitch to drive in a run, he put the winning run on base. How any manager could have a feel that Kimbrel could do the job at this point is beyond reason. Cora became a spectator and almost watched the game slip away.

[devildavid]

I believe the thinking is that Kimbrel is simply a far better pitcher than Joe Kelly, even when he's off. And if you bring Kelly in, it's going to be into a mess where his chances of succeeding are not great.

 

I guarantee Cora's stomach was churning. It's a situation no manager wants to get in, but it's going to happen sometimes.

 

Kimbrel is better on average, but was he better last night? Kimbrel was the worst pitcher for the Red Sox last night.

[Maxbialystock]

For last nights game, Kimbrel was not better than any other alternative. He came close to blowing the game. Another pitcher could have done a better job. It was a 3 run lead, not really a high pressure situation. The only pressure was due to the batters coming up. After Kimbrel walked Judge, he had demonstrated he was not the right pitcher for the situation. After he gave up a single to Gregorious, he did the same. After Kimbrel walked Voit to load the bases he demonstrated he was not the right pitcher for the situation because he put the tying run on base. After Kimbrel hit Walker with a pitch to drive in a run, he put the winning run on base. How any manager could have a feel that Kimbrel could do the job at this point is beyond reason. Cora became a spectator and almost watched the game slip away.

 

Really? Who got 3 outs and the save? The tooth Fairy? At no point in last nights game was Cora indecisive and he sure as heck was never a spectator. His decision was to leave Kimbrel in the game, and events showed it was the right decision.

 

You guys are all projecting what might have happened and ignoring what did happen. Please get back to me when you have hard fact, some evidence.

[fxkatt]

Every fan watching or listening to game 4 knew that Cora's absolute goal was "to bridge the way to his Stopper." This was repeated ad nauseam throughout the night to the point of my thinking: "Screw that, just go with the hot, competent hand, because K is not the shutdown stopper the media believes he is." I truly believe that Brasier could have thrown two shut down innings easily last night. He seemed in full control, and he knows he doesn't have that wild wild option that the closer has. I didn't think Sale should have been an option, given Thurs nite. There were too many "brilliant" moves... why not go low key, the way you did with last night's lineup. At least I might have slept after.

[fxkatt]

Really? Who got 3 outs and the save? The tooth Fairy? At no point in last nights game was Cora indecisive and he sure as heck was never a spectator. His decision was to leave Kimbrel in the game, and events showed it was the right decision.

 

You guys are all projecting what might have happened and ignoring what did happen. Please get back to me when you have hard fact, some evidence.

 

We know who got the Save, but what three pitchers deserved the Save?? None called Kimbrel.

[Maxbialystock]

We know who got the Save, but what three pitchers deserved the Save?? None called Kimbrel.

 

Can’t disagree with that. Brasier, Barnes, and Sale were terrific, and Kimbrel’s control issues put the game in jeopardy. All true. But the issue is whether leaving Kimbrel in was the right decision. I say it was and have yet to see any hard evidence that it was not.

 

My favorite example of soft evidence is whether Cora had enough guys warming up in the bullpen. Someone needs to cite an example of how guys warming up in the bullpen changed the outcome of a game simply by warming up.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I would have left Porcello in for one more inning. In that scenario, Barnes pitches the 7th, Brasier pitches the 8th, and Kimbrel the ninth, but you have Sale available and he could have backed up any reliever who struggled (in this case, Kimbrel).

 

I don't trust Kimbrel going forward. If the Red Sox are winning 3-1 in game one against the Astros in the ninth inning and Kimbrel walks the lead off batter, I'm taking him out. For the time being, I think the Red Sox have to back up Kimbrel with another arm throwing in the bullpen (maybe Kelly?) ready to come in at the first sign of trouble.

 

The Yankees should have tied that game, Kimbrel was that bad.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Fan_since_Boggs

[moonslav59]

You guys are all projecting what might have happened and ignoring what did happen.

 

I actually see them judging in hindsight.

 

Kimbrel was a good choice, but he did poorly and came oh so close to losing the game.

 

To hear someone say, "For last nights game, Kimbrel was not better than any other alternative." is pure hindsight.

 

[Slasher9]

If maxbialystock had his way JF would still be the manager. He defended everyone of his stupid moves all season long last year. He will do the same thing with Cora until the time comes when we have a new manager. Then whoever that is will do no wrong.....

[moonslav59]

I would have left Porcello in for one more inning. In that scenario, Barnes pitches the 7th, Brasier pitches the 8th, and Kimbrel the ninth, but you have Sale available and he could have backed up any reliever who struggled (in this case, Kimbrel).

 

I don't trust Kimbrel going forward. If the Red Sox are winning 3-1 in game one against the Astros in the ninth inning and Kimbrel walks the lead off batter, I'm taking him out. For the time being, I think the Red Sox have to back up Kimbrel with another arm throwing in the bullpen (maybe Kelly?) ready to come in at the first sign of trouble.

 

The Yankees should have tied that game, Kimbrel was that bad.

 

I think the only way Sale could be used is for a clean inning. You don't save him, in case someone falters. You save Kimbel for Sale in the 9th, assuming Porcello gets through one more inning cleanly.

 

Again, I have no issue with Cora's choices. He's by far the best manager we've ever had. It's not even close.

[TylerD]

If maxbialystock had his way JF would still be the manager. He defended everyone of his stupid moves all season long last year. He will do the same thing with Cora until the time comes when we have a new manager. Then whoever that is will do no wrong.....

 

Maxibialystock is right though!!!! How is this an argument?????? Kimbrel got the save and we won the game. He is exactly right when he says you are projecting what COULD have happened. But the reality is he got 3 outs and won the game in a high pressure situation against a good Yankee hitting team. Had Kelly come in and completely blew this game there isn’t a single person here that would defend him in that. I sure as hell wouldn’t. He went to the closer and we won the game. End of story.

[Bellhorn04]

It's somewhat comical how passionate some of these discussions get.

 

Here's the thing...on this thread you have a relatively small group of fans, with very divided opinions on what moves Cora should have made or not made. If you took a poll on specific calls you might get a 55-45 split or something.

 

Cora can't make 55-45 decisions. He has to make the call one way or the other and live with it.

[moonslav59]

It's somewhat comical how passionate some of these discussions get.

 

Here's the thing...on this thread you have a relatively small group of fans, with very divided opinions on what moves Cora should have made or not made. If you took a poll on specific calls you might get a 55-45 split or something.

 

Cora can't make 55-45 decisions. He has to make the call one way or the other and live with it.

 

Exactly, and it seems like if he makes a 49% call, it's like he made a 2% call.

 

I, for one, am not one to think that every choice a manager makes has a clear right or wrong choice, or even a clear best choice out of many good or bad options.

[Larry Cook]

I think the only way Sale could be used is for a clean inning. You don't save him, in case someone falters. You save Kimbel for Sale in the 9th, assuming Porcello gets through one more inning cleanly.

 

Again, I have no issue with Cora's choices. He's by far the best manager we've ever had. It's not even close.

 

The 8th inning last night was the perfect time for sale. The #8, #9 and #1 hitters were up for the Yankees and sale dispatched them with 9 or do pitches.

 

If nothing else it was a gutsy and calculated call by Cora. And one we should all applaud, because it is thinking outside the box like that, that we need.