Dave Dombrowski

[Spudboy]

I think that at the end of the day, results matter. They may have looked like contenders on paper, but we don't play baseball on paper. When the proverbial rubber met the road, severe weaknesses in the team's defense, intangibles and especially starting pitching sunk the team like a rock.

 

These things are the domain of the GM. They are his job to resolve, and it's ESPECIALLY his job to adjust the roster and change the plan to prevent problems like this from snowballing like they did in especially 14 and 15. Having these probpelms bounce back 2 years in a row is unacceptable with the resources this team can field. A GM is supposed to identify the problems in a troubled roster and make adjustments to the team to right the ship, and help the team recover from poor seasons. Cherington did not do this in 2015 especially, and that's why he's no longer here.

 

2 years into a major slump, everyone could see what the issues were. We needed another starting pitcher, we needed to beef up the bullpen, and we needed to improve our infield defense in particular. Cherington failed to adjust the team and waited for the youth movement. That would have worked in KC or Cleveland, but you CAN'T baseball like that in a major market like Boston. You can't take all that money from the fans and run the team like it's in the poor house.

 

And this is compounded by the fact that not only did he NOT address the major issue of the franchise in free agency (STARTING FREAKING PITCHING!), even in the face of the fact that our minor leagues were not producing results in that area either making signing starting pitchers mandatory and he STILL dragged his feet, but he also spent his money -- on expensive position players in areas of no need.

 

Even if you believe that Cherington was LL's puppet, his job was to put some baseball knowhow behind LL's decisions. This job was clearly not done. Even if you favored the strategy of a youth movement, the way Cherington did this is just not how you do it in Boston. You have to cover your roster with veteran professionals who do their job while the youth movement generates from the minors. You have the resources to do both, making the decision to do one or the other a false dichotomy, and this is where Cherington failed..

 

Good stuff Dojji.

[a700hitter]

I give a pass for 2012, if only because the writing was on the wall for that one at the outset, with the collapse of the remnants of the old 2007 core at the heart of the issues with that team. The selection of manager did not help, but whoever we put in there would have had a tough act to follow after Tito.

 

(was that deliberate? To take a lost year to reset our managerial expectations before putting the guy you wanted in place? We'll probably never know)

 

The real problem to me is the 2014 and especially the 2015 season. The cracks in the foundation were ever more and more obvious, and Cherington showed an unacceptable rigidness of holding to The Plan instead of making needed adjustments in season or even between seasons. If LL hadn't forced his hand I doubt we would have spent money at all, even on Porcello. That also resulted in bad signings like the Pablob, but at least it was doing SOMETHING. Left to his own devices I wonder if Cherington would have done that much

 

Cherington had a midmarket philosophy for how to deal with these problems, build up the farm and regenerate from the endless supply of youth his drafts would generate. he clearly wanted to clear the roster and build over again from the ground up, while waiting patiently for his garden to produce fruit. You just CAN'T do that in a major market. You have to make a show of trying to contend in the down years. Without Luccino forcing his hand I wonder if Cherington would have done even that much.

The only thing that I would add to your two posts is that Ben also had no eye for identifying pitching prospects. When he left, the pitching at the MLB level was a train wreck and we had no talent in the pipeline at the minor league levels. People will point to Kopech or Espinosa, but 2 prospects is nothing to squawk about. Most pitchers don’t make it. You need much more depth in pitching. Espinosa was a child at the lower levels of the minors. Even without his injury, we would still be waiting for him for 2 years at minimum. Ben has been gone for 3 years already. Kopech is likely a bullpen guy. Our pitching was just awful throughout the organization, and i am still a firm believer that good pitching is the most important ingredient of winning. Ben had no clue on pitching.

[cp176]

Dojji's posts are working well for me.

[dgalehouse]

The 2013 Boston Strong team was truly an inspired group of guys on a mission. We have heard many , many times that the post season is a crapshoot . But that team always seemed to find a way to win. You could say they overachieved. If you want to credit Cherington for that , okay fair enough. But the best way to have a parade is to field a playoff team year after year. Cherington did not do that. His other three years were absolutely horrible. You can't just shrug that off. Dombrowski , despite the retirement of David Ortiz , has put together a talented and exciting group that is very capable of winning it all. It will be up to the players to come through big time this post season. The G.M. can only do so much.

[Spudboy]

The only thing that I would add to your two posts is that Ben also had no eye for identifying pitching prospects. When he left, the pitching at the MLB level was a train wreck and we had no talent in the pipeline at the minor league levels. People will point to Kopech or Espinosa, but 2 prospects is nothing to squawk about. Most pitchers don’t make it. You need much more depth in pitching. Espinosa was a child at the lower levels of the minors. Even without his injury, we would still be waiting for him for 2 years at minimum. Ben has been gone for 3 years already. Kopech is likely a bullpen guy. Our pitching was just awful throughout the organization, and i am still a firm believer that good pitching is the most important ingredient of winning. Ben had no clue on pitching.

 

I think I agree.

 

I don't know how many pitchers and position players for that matter were drafted under Ben.

 

Yes, the Sox do not have an exemplary record when drafting pitchers.

 

Is it Ben's fault? Did he say to his player development people "guys, we are not going to draft a lot of pitchers"?

 

For that matter, was Ben really the architect and builder of such a good farm system? He certainly gets credit for doing so. It was done on his watch.

 

But who made the decisions of who to scout and who to draft? Ben alone?

 

I would think that this would be more of a consensus decision process with input from many in scouting and player development. Did Ben personally scour the country for talent?

 

When Ben took over as GM did he immediately go out and hire a new staff of scouts and player development people?

 

Do we know the answers to all of these questions?

[a700hitter]

I think I agree.

 

I don't know how many pitchers and position players for that matter were drafted under Ben.

 

Yes, the Sox do not have an exemplary record when drafting pitchers.

 

Is it Ben's fault? Did he say to his player development people "guys, we are not going to draft a lot of pitchers"?

 

For that matter, was Ben really the architect and builder of such a good farm system? He certainly gets credit for doing so. It was done on his watch.

 

But who made the decisions of who to scout and who to draft? Ben alone?

 

I would think that this would be more of a consensus decision process with input from many in scouting and player development. Did Ben personally scour the country for talent?

 

When Ben took over as GM did he immediately go out and hire a new staff of scouts and player development people?

 

Do we know the answers to all of these questions?

we only know that he got fired. Someone thought he was doing a bad job. He wasn’t an unlikeable guy, and he had certain talents. His time had run out. If he had finished 3rd with his $200 million payrolls in 2 of those last place years, he is probably still here. I think the owners couldn’t fathom consistently finishing last with one of the highest payrolls in baseball. That is a tough act to duplicate.

[dgalehouse]

The post season following the 2013 title was probably the most useless , unproductive post season I have seen. Not one thing was done to help the team. Not one. I remember complaining about it at the time , and being told I was wrong and all was well. Now , I am still hearing that the 2014 team looked like a winner . I give up.

[cp176]

I think I agree.

 

I don't know how many pitchers and position players for that matter were drafted under Ben.

 

Yes, the Sox do not have an exemplary record when drafting pitchers.

 

Is it Ben's fault? Did he say to his player development people "guys, we are not going to draft a lot of pitchers"?

 

For that matter, was Ben really the architect and builder of such a good farm system? He certainly gets credit for doing so. It was done on his watch.

 

But who made the decisions of who to scout and who to draft? Ben alone?

 

I would think that this would be more of a consensus decision process with input from many in scouting and player development. Did Ben personally scour the country for talent?

 

When Ben took over as GM did he immediately go out and hire a new staff of scouts and player development people?

 

Do we know the answers to all of these questions?

 

I don't think that we really know the answers to any of your questions. This is why I laugh my ass off when we spend so much time giving one man - a GM - credit for any one of the particular things that you mentioned. I don't think that Ben Cherington had anymore to do with any one thing anymore than Dave Dombrowski. Ben did not literally build anything anymore than DD has decimated anything. In all honesty i don't think that any of them are actually much better than the guys who assembled our best teams from yesteryear and yes that would include Theo.

[a700hitter]

The post season following the 2013 title was probably the most useless , unproductive post season I have seen. Not one thing was done to help the team. Not one. I remember complaining about it at the time , and being told I was wrong and all was well. Now , I am still hearing that the 2014 team looked like a winner . I give up.

I agree with you. When camp broke for 2014, it looked like a 4th place team. The holes in that roster were obvious by opening day.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think I agree.

 

I don't know how many pitchers and position players for that matter were drafted under Ben.

 

Yes, the Sox do not have an exemplary record when drafting pitchers.

 

Is it Ben's fault? Did he say to his player development people "guys, we are not going to draft a lot of pitchers"?

 

For that matter, was Ben really the architect and builder of such a good farm system? He certainly gets credit for doing so. It was done on his watch.

 

But who made the decisions of who to scout and who to draft? Ben alone?

 

I would think that this would be more of a consensus decision process with input from many in scouting and player development. Did Ben personally scour the country for talent?

 

When Ben took over as GM did he immediately go out and hire a new staff of scouts and player development people?

 

Do we know the answers to all of these questions?

 

Ben and Dave seem to believe more in the “stuff” of prospect rather than the metrics. The reason why NY has been able to develop pitching is reliance on spin rates. We’ve been snapping up guys in the middle rounds of the draft without eye popping velocity but top end spin rates who blossom into something of value.

[notin]

we only know that he got fired. Someone thought he was doing a bad job. He wasn’t an unlikeable guy, and he had certain talents. His time had run out. If he had finished 3rd with his $200 million payrolls in 2 of those last place years, he is probably still here. I think the owners couldn’t fathom consistently finishing last with one of the highest payrolls in baseball. That is a tough act to duplicate.

 

Except that he didn’t get fired. He quit.

 

I know his critics struggle with this, but Dombrowski was brought in to replace Lucchino, not Cherington. Some articles even made it sound like Dombrowski was disappointed Cherington quit.

 

Now maybe Cherington saw the writing on the wall and figured he had little time left. Maybe he figured he wouldn’t like his new (potentially reduced) role. Or maybe he figured he couldn’t work with Dombrowski. Or very likely, some combination of those three things. But there is a lot more print dedicated to him quitting than there is to him not getting another GM job because no team would trust him with their payroll.

 

Now I don’t know if Lucchino was fired or asked to retire. But I think even Dombrowski should have respected the job Cherington did building the farm enough that firing him would have been a stupid thing to do...

[Bellhorn04]

Except that he didn’t get fired. He quit.

 

I know his critics struggle with this, but Dombrowski was brought in to replace Lucchino, not Cherington. Some articles even made it sound like Dombrowski was disappointed Cherington quit.

 

The substance of events was that Ben was replaced by DD as de facto head of business operations.

[Slasher9]

we only know that he got fired.

 

This actually is FAKE NEWS

[Bellhorn04]

Technically he didn't get fired. The change in his position was so unpalatable that he quit immediately. How's that?

[Slasher9]

. The reason why NY has been able to develop pitching is reliance on spin rates. We’ve been snapping up guys in the middle rounds of the draft without eye popping velocity but top end spin rates who blossom into something of value.

 

No one here gives a f***. This post might be better suited on a Yankees fan forum?

[SoxnCycles]

Technically he didn't get fired. The change in his position was so unpalatable that he quit immediately. How's that?

 

Are you positive it was the position and not who he'd be working with?

[mvp 78]

I don't think that we really know the answers to any of your questions. This is why I laugh my ass off when we spend so much time giving one man - a GM - credit for any one of the particular things that you mentioned. I don't think that Ben Cherington had anymore to do with any one thing anymore than Dave Dombrowski. Ben did not literally build anything anymore than DD has decimated anything. In all honesty i don't think that any of them are actually much better than the guys who assembled our best teams from yesteryear and yes that would include Theo.

 

When people say "Theo", "Ben" or "Dave" it's really just short hand for all of the front office while that GM was in charge. We'll never know to what extent Theo wanted to "feed the monster" or if it was Larry, or if Ben wanted to sign Panda or if it was ownership, or if Dave is pushing the fire sale of the farm system or if it was directed from above.

 

At the end of the day, those three guys each have good and bad things about them, but Sox fans have been lucky that they've at least been fairly competent.

[Slasher9]

Technically he didn't get fired. The change in his position was so unpalatable that he quit immediately. How's that?

 

Less fake

[a700hitter]

In the words of the immortal Casey Stengel who was asked about "tendering his resignation" to the Yankees after the 1961 season, he replied, "Resigned? Heck no, I was fired." As an employee benefits attorney for 30 years, in response to the notion of Ben not being fired, I'd sarcastically say "yeah right." The diminution of his responsibilities were such that any court would rule that he had been terminated and could invoke his Golden Parachute. The notion that he wasn't fired is ridiculous.

[mvp 78]

The substance of events was that Ben was replaced by DD as de facto head of business operations.

 

I think Ben saw the writing on the wall that if he didn't quit, he'd be let go. May as well go out on your own terms. We'll never really know what went on behind closed doors, but I can't blame Ben for bouncing.

[mvp 78]

Also, Dombrowski wasn't replacing Lucchino, Sam Kennedy replaced Lucchino. Dombrowski was taking over a brand new role that didn't exist in the organization.

[SoxnCycles]

In the words of the immortal Casey Stengel who was asked about "tendering his resignation" to the Yankees after the 1961 season, he replied, "Resigned? Heck no, I was fired." As an employee benefits attorney for 30 years, in response to the notion of Ben not being fired, I'd sarcastically say "yeah right." The diminution of his responsibilities were such that any court would rule that he had been terminated and could invoke his Golden Parachute. The notion that he wasn't fired is ridiculous.

 

Well, at least you didn't have to rely on your Friends & Family Plan for your expertise this time around.

[a700hitter]

Well, at least you didn't have to rely on your Friends & Family Plan for your expertise this time around.

My sources are always solid.

[Bellhorn04]

Are you positive it was the position and not who he'd be working with?

 

Could have been both.

 

Whichever it was I'm sure it felt like a kick in the groin.

[Kimmi]

The pitching staff Ben assembled for the 2015 season was not his finest work.

 

It was not, and yet, the team was predicted to be a playoff contender. While I am not a fan of building an offense first team, it was the offense that was supposed to carry that year's team, while the pitching was supposed to be able to pitch well enough to keep the team in the game.

 

We may not have liked the way the team was constructed, but we still should have competed for a playoff spot.

[Kimmi]

12 doesn’t count and 14 shoulda been good. That’s not an argument I’d hang my hat on and I’ve been known to use flimsy hat racks.

 

Seriously, no one can fault a GM for the way the team performed under Valentine.

 

As far as 2014 and 2015, if a team underperforms, is that the fault of the GM?

 

If we extend Betts like everyone here wants to do, and he goes into a complete spiral in the first year of his extension, is that the GM's fault?

[Kimmi]

But they ended up last place teams. What we thought of them in March is irrelevant.

 

No, what we had in March is very relevant. That's the GM's job.

[Kimmi]

If you give me a parade every 4th year, I will take the last place finishes the other 3. Especially if I am going into every one of those seasons believing we can win.

 

I love you. That is all.

[a700hitter]

No, what we had in March is very relevant. That's the GM's job.

It was a 4th place team when they broke camp, and they under performed from there.

[mvp 78]

Seriously, no one can fault a GM for the way the team performed under Valentine.

 

As far as 2014 and 2015, if a team underperforms, is that the fault of the GM?

 

If we extend Betts like everyone here wants to do, and he goes into a complete spiral in the first year of his extension, is that the GM's fault?

 

I can only fault GM's for moves that epically fail (Panda/Crawford/et al). Team win/loss are out of their control. And as I've said before, we'll never know the inner workings of the Sox FO. You can't blame or praise the GM solely for any move. Everything is run by the Sox FO machine. Blaming Ben is just blaming the entire FO from 2012 - 2015.