Swihart requests a trade

[OH FOY]

What young dynamic Pitcher, (especially Starter), was developed by Cherrington? Even Relievers? By this time we should have at least 1 Roger Clemens, I'll even take Bruce Hurst.

 

Bogaerts was signed while Theo was here, pretty sure JBJ was too. Mookie could have been too. Mookie was Drafted in June 2011, Theo was still here right?

I only see Benni, and maybe Devers as Cherrington kids. Forgot Trey Ball.

Edit: Theo resigned in Oct. 2011

Edited May 18, 2018 by OH FOY!

[notin]

What young dynamic Pitcher, (especially Starter), was developed by Cherrington? Even Relievers? By this time we should have at least 1 Roger Clemens, I'll even take Bruce Hurst.

 

Bogaerts was signed while Theo was here, pretty sure JBJ was too. Mookie could have been too. Mookie was Drafted in June 2011, Theo was still here right?

I only see Benni, and maybe Devers as Cherrington kids. Forgot Trey Ball.

 

Swihart was also drafted by Theo. If Swihart's lack of development is the fault of Cherington, then shouldn't the development of Betts, Bogaerts, Bradley, Shaw, Benintendi, Moncada, Kopech, Devers, Vazquez, etc. be to his credit to the same degree? Or do we only hold GMs accountable for their failures?

 

Cherington only lead 4 drafts for the Sox. While he did draft a few ancillary relievers (Johnson, Poyner, Maddox and Buttrey), he did not get much pitching. But he did acquire ERod.

 

Most of the young ace type pitchers that fans want to see come up through the system have been an issue for Boston because they have been picking later in most drafts. And they haven't really picked early often enough to avoid normal attrition of prospects. Really, they took one shot and it didn't work out.

 

Whil their drafting of pitchers has not been good, your expectations might be too high. You expected a Roger Clemens? Clemens is one of the greatest pitchers in MLB history. Those guys don't come along every year.

Edited May 18, 2018 by notin

[notin]

To expand on the drafting expectations, what pitchers did Cherington miss out on?

 

2012 - Lance McCullers. But McCullers was a signability case and Houston took the cheapest of the #1 overall pick candidates (Carlos Correa) to save money to get him. The Sox did draft Casron Fullmer in that draft, but he did not sign and went to college.

2013 - The Sox did pass on plenty of pitchers better than Trey Ball including Corey Knebel, oft-injured Marco Gonzalez, Nick Pivetta, Matt Boyd and Zack Godley. None of these guys reminds me of Clemens. This was really one of the weakest draft classes in recent memory, especially for pitching.

2014 - The Sox did draft Kopech. They did pass on Justus Sheffield and Luke Weaver, but so did a lot of teams. Ditto for Mitch Keller, Jordan Montogomery, and JackFlaherty. There are a lot of guys still undetermined in this draft, including some I mentioned.

2015 - The Sox did pass on Carson Fullmer and Walker Buehler, but did so to take Andrew Benintendi.

 

What Clemens/Hurst type did he miss out on? Maybe McCullers, but that's really about it...

Edited May 18, 2018 by notin

[illinoisredsox]

Swihart was also drafted by Theo. If Swihart's lack of development is the fault of Cherington, then shouldn't the development of Betts, Bogaerts, Bradley, Shaw, Benintendi, Moncada, Kopech, Devers, Vazquez, etc. be to his credit to the same degree? Or do we only hold GMs accountable for their failures?

 

Cherington only lead 4 drafts for the Sox. While he did draft a few ancillary relievers (Johnson, Poyner, Maddox and Buttrey), he did not get much pitching. But he did acquire ERod.

 

Most of the young ace type pitchers that fans want to see come up through the system have been an issue for Boston because they have been picking later in most drafts. And they haven't really picked early often enough to avoid normal attrition of prospects. Really, they took one shot and it didn't work out.

 

Whil their drafting of pitchers has not been good, your expectations might be too high. You expected a Roger Clemens? Clemens is one of the greatest pitchers in MLB history. Those guys don't come along every year.

 

While Cherington only lead 4 drafts, he began working for the Red Sox in 1999. Under Epstein he was director of player development and then VP, player personnel. Baseball front offices are not one-man shows. It is silly to think he did not have considerable input into the players the Sox did draft over those years.

Edited May 18, 2018 by illinoisredsox

[notin]

While Cherington only lead 4 drafts, he began working for the Red Sox in 1999. Under Epstein he was director of player development and then VP, player personnel. Baseball front offices are not one-man shows. It is silly to think he did not have considerable input into the players the Sox did draft over those years.

 

Also true. He was there before Epstein and there after Epstein left.

[moonslav59]

Swihart was also drafted by Theo. If Swihart's lack of development is the fault of Cherington, then shouldn't the development of Betts, Bogaerts, Bradley, Shaw, Benintendi, Moncada, Kopech, Devers, Vazquez, etc. be to his credit to the same degree? Or do we only hold GMs accountable for their failures?

 

Cherington only lead 4 drafts for the Sox. While he did draft a few ancillary relievers (Johnson, Poyner, Maddox and Buttrey), he did not get much pitching. But he did acquire ERod.

 

Most of the young ace type pitchers that fans want to see come up through the system have been an issue for Boston because they have been picking later in most drafts. And they haven't really picked early often enough to avoid normal attrition of prospects. Really, they took one shot and it didn't work out.

 

Whil their drafting of pitchers has not been good, your expectations might be too high. You expected a Roger Clemens? Clemens is one of the greatest pitchers in MLB history. Those guys don't come along every year.

 

Ben did draft Kopech and sign Espinoza. Both helped net us SSale & Pom.

[Kimmi]

Why?

 

A) Because Sox management felt he would never be able to improve enough to be our catcher.

 

Because we needed a LF'er and Sox management still felt Swihart could develop as a catcher, but chose current need over the long run.

 

If it was B, I think we'd have seen Swihart catch more last year and in spring training this year.

 

The words "fair chance" are not so easy to define and aply to this situation.

 

I happen to feel that the Sox giving Swihart a chance to try and win a job at another position was as fair as they could and should have been. IMO, he was never going to develop into a capable catcher,

 

This is Swihart's 7th season in professional baseball. He's caught over 2,900 innings on the farm and 750+ at the ML level.

 

3,714 innings + 49 in winterball.

 

I think Sox management has had a significant defensive sample size to judge what's fair or not when it comes to continuing or ending his development chances as a catcher. IMO, they have made the right choice. Our slumping catchers does not make Swihart any better on defense.

 

1. He was called up well before he was ready (out of necessity). He did an admirable job considering, but being thrown into the fire before he was ready messed with his development.

 

2. In 2016, he was sent down after 6 freaking games. SIX! If that's not bad enough, the Sox then decided he was going to become a left fielder.

 

3. After healing from his injury, the Sox said they were committed to playing him only as a catcher. How long did that last? Next thing you know, he's going to be tried out at 1B, 3B, 2B, etc.

 

Now maybe he wasn't progressing as quickly as the Sox would have liked him to. I really don't know. But either way, he was not given a fair chance as a catcher.

[Kimmi]

While Cherington only lead 4 drafts, he began working for the Red Sox in 1999. Under Epstein he was director of player development and then VP, player personnel. Baseball front offices are not one-man shows. It is silly to think he did not have considerable input into the players the Sox did draft over those years.

 

#BringBackBen

[Bellhorn04]

1. He was called up well before he was ready (out of necessity). He did an admirable job considering, but being thrown into the fire before he was ready messed with his development.

 

2. In 2016, he was sent down after 6 freaking games. SIX! If that's not bad enough, the Sox then decided he was going to become a left fielder.

 

3. After healing from his injury, the Sox said they were committed to playing him only as a catcher. How long did that last? Next thing you know, he's going to be tried out at 1B, 3B, 2B, etc.

 

Now maybe he wasn't progressing as quickly as the Sox would have liked him to. I really don't know. But either way, he was not given a fair chance as a catcher.

 

I don't disagree that he's been jerked around, but in 2016 they had Vazquez coming back from the injury, and they had Hanigan, who Ben had signed to a 2-year deal. If the plan was for Vazquez to be the #1, where did Swihart fit on the roster?

[Natick to NC]

#BringBackBen

 

I'm all for it ...would he comeback though ???

[cp176]

I'm all for it ...would he comeback though ???

 

Really - Honest to God - I'm assuming that you are kidding. I hope that you are kidding.

[notin]

I don't disagree that he's been jerked around, but in 2016 they had Vazquez coming back from the injury, and they had Hanigan, who Ben had signed to a 2-year deal. If the plan was for Vazquez to be the #1, where did Swihart fit on the roster?

 

Hanigan was a prototypical backup catcher. If the Sox had any faith in Vazquez - and reportedly they did - the catching staff was never going to be both of them. At one point, the Sox were getting significant trade interest in Vazquez, yet they elected to keep him. So I must assume on some level they did like Vazquez as well.

 

Of course, that might have been more about Cherington, who was a wee bit reluctant to deal any minor league talent.

[moonslav59]

I don't disagree that he's been jerked around, but in 2016 they had Vazquez coming back from the injury, and they had Hanigan, who Ben had signed to a 2-year deal. If the plan was for Vazquez to be the #1, where did Swihart fit on the roster?

 

To me, Vaz was always going to be the number one. The injury did force Swihart up before his time, but he was still catching.

[notin]

I'm all for it ...would he comeback though ???

 

You're going to want Cherington back in 2 or 3 years if this farm system doesn't get any better. #thecliffisreal

[moonslav59]

1. He was called up well before he was ready (out of necessity). He did an admirable job considering, but being thrown into the fire before he was ready messed with his development.

 

2. In 2016, he was sent down after 6 freaking games. SIX! If that's not bad enough, the Sox then decided he was going to become a left fielder.

 

3. After healing from his injury, the Sox said they were committed to playing him only as a catcher. How long did that last? Next thing you know, he's going to be tried out at 1B, 3B, 2B, etc.

 

Now maybe he wasn't progressing as quickly as the Sox would have liked him to. I really don't know. But either way, he was not given a fair chance as a catcher.

 

You can't always believe what management says (like ..."Swi will only catch from now on...".

 

To me, Vaz was going to be the starting catcher in 2016, but he needed a little more time to be "ready". The 6 games to start the season was for that reason, IMO, and not to give him a chance to win the position.

 

He was NOT demoted for doing poorly in 6 games. The Sox had already made up their mind beforehand.

 

He's caught almost 3800 innings since joining the organization. That's enough for them to have a pretty good idea about his skill level and growth curve (or lack of one). I trust they see more than we do, and they see what goes on in practice as well.

 

I'm not saying management never makes mistakes in player evaluations, but I have to think they must feel pretty darn sure of themselves to not be giving him a chance now that are catchers are hitting .445. Maybe his foot injury is part of the reason. Maybe they have known for years he'll never catch for us, but they were giving lip service to his future as a catcher in order to drive up his trade value and/or confidence level. He has worked out as catcher in ST'ing and played an inning this year, so he still probably views himself as a possible catcher option. I gotta say, not playing him there can't be helping his confidence level right now.

 

My guess is, we trade him once Pedey comes back, but maybe we'll throw Nunez on the DL to delay the inevidable.

 

If we're not ever going to play him, then we should just trade him. Cora is big on playing the bench, and he still never plays. That speaks volumes.

[moonslav59]

1. He was called up well before he was ready (out of necessity). He did an admirable job considering, but being thrown into the fire before he was ready messed with his development.

 

2. In 2016, he was sent down after 6 freaking games. SIX! If that's not bad enough, the Sox then decided he was going to become a left fielder.

 

3. After healing from his injury, the Sox said they were committed to playing him only as a catcher. How long did that last? Next thing you know, he's going to be tried out at 1B, 3B, 2B, etc.

 

Now maybe he wasn't progressing as quickly as the Sox would have liked him to. I really don't know. But either way, he was not given a fair chance as a catcher.

 

One more thing: given he was rushed in 2015 but did "admirably well", how could that also hurt his development? He had the best coaches. His confidence level soared. he got to know the staff, some of whom are still here.

 

The part that stunted his growth was the move to LF, but the guy already had over 3700 innings as a catcher. Maybe he "deserved more", but one could argue that was more than a fair enough chance as a catcher.

[cp176]

You're going to want Cherington back in 2 or 3 years if this farm system doesn't get any better. #thecliffisreal

 

Probably not notin - sometimes you just have to keep putting one foot in front of another.

[Kimmi]

I don't disagree that he's been jerked around, but in 2016 they had Vazquez coming back from the injury, and they had Hanigan, who Ben had signed to a 2-year deal. If the plan was for Vazquez to be the #1, where did Swihart fit on the roster?

 

Vazquez was definitely slated to be the #1, but only because Swihart was not ready yet. Early scouting reports had Swihart as a very good defender and a better overall catcher than Vazquez.

 

I'm just saying that Swihart never got a real chance to develop his potential. He might not have reached the potential either way, but he wasn't given a fair chance.

[Kimmi]

I'm all for it ...would he comeback though ???

 

He probably would not.

 

Theo would be even better, but he's not coming back either.

[Bellhorn04]

Vazquez was definitely slated to be the #1, but only because Swihart was not ready yet. Early scouting reports had Swihart as a very good defender and a better overall catcher than Vazquez.

 

I'm just saying that Swihart never got a real chance to develop his potential. He might not have reached the potential either way, but he wasn't given a fair chance.

 

It might be argued that having 2 young catching prospects like Vazquez and Swihart was bound to become a problem at some point. I think we felt it was one of those 'good problems to have'. But I think it turned out to be a problem for Swihart, and perhaps for the team as well.

[mvp 78]

Vazquez was definitely slated to be the #1, but only because Swihart was not ready yet. Early scouting reports had Swihart as a very good defender and a better overall catcher than Vazquez.

 

I'm just saying that Swihart never got a real chance to develop his potential. He might not have reached the potential either way, but he wasn't given a fair chance.

Hard to be given a chance when you hurt yourself. Hard to blame the Sox for that.

[Kimmi]

You can't always believe what management says (like ..."Swi will only catch from now on...".

 

To me, Vaz was going to be the starting catcher in 2016, but he needed a little more time to be "ready". The 6 games to start the season was for that reason, IMO, and not to give him a chance to win the position.

 

He was NOT demoted for doing poorly in 6 games. The Sox had already made up their mind beforehand.

 

He's caught almost 3800 innings since joining the organization. That's enough for them to have a pretty good idea about his skill level and growth curve (or lack of one). I trust they see more than we do, and they see what goes on in practice as well.

 

I'm not saying management never makes mistakes in player evaluations, but I have to think they must feel pretty darn sure of themselves to not be giving him a chance now that are catchers are hitting .445. Maybe his foot injury is part of the reason. Maybe they have known for years he'll never catch for us, but they were giving lip service to his future as a catcher in order to drive up his trade value and/or confidence level. He has worked out as catcher in ST'ing and played an inning this year, so he still probably views himself as a possible catcher option. I gotta say, not playing him there can't be helping his confidence level right now.

 

My guess is, we trade him once Pedey comes back, but maybe we'll throw Nunez on the DL to delay the inevidable.

 

If we're not ever going to play him, then we should just trade him. Cora is big on playing the bench, and he still never plays. That speaks volumes.

 

I agree that Vazquez was going to be the #1 catcher. I also agree that he was not ready at the start of the season.

 

I very much disagree that Vazquez was coming up after 6 game regardless of what Swihart did. Swihart was most definitely sent down after 6 games due to poor play. Vaz could have used more time in AAA. He was called up in panic, much the same way Devers was called up in panic.

 

My point is not that Swihart hasn't caught that many innings with the Sox. It's that his development was not handled properly.

 

I would hate to lose Swihart, but I agree that if the Sox are not going to play him, they need to trade him. Having him take up a roster spot is doing him no good and the team no good.

[Kimmi]

One more thing: given he was rushed in 2015 but did "admirably well", how could that also hurt his development? He had the best coaches. His confidence level soared. he got to know the staff, some of whom are still here.

 

The part that stunted his growth was the move to LF, but the guy already had over 3700 innings as a catcher. Maybe he "deserved more", but one could argue that was more than a fair enough chance as a catcher.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't think you get the same type of development playing in big league games as you do in the minors. That said, I don't really blame management for calling him up in 2015. They really had no choice.

 

My main criticism is the way they handled 2016.

[Kimmi]

It might be argued that having 2 young catching prospects like Vazquez and Swihart was bound to become a problem at some point. I think we felt it was one of those 'good problems to have'. But I think it turned out to be a problem for Swihart, and perhaps for the team as well.

 

One of them was likely to be traded eventually. I just think that management mishandled Swihart.

[Kimmi]

Hard to be given a chance when you hurt yourself. Hard to blame the Sox for that.

 

I don't blame the Sox for Swihart's injury. I do blame them for moving him off of catcher so quickly that year.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't blame the Sox for Swihart's injury. I do blame them for moving him off of catcher so quickly that year.

 

OK, let's say they should have given Vaz a couple more weeks in AAA in 2016.

 

What should they have done with Swihart after those couple more weeks?

[mvp 78]

I don't blame the Sox for Swihart's injury. I do blame them for moving him off of catcher so quickly that year.

 

I’m not convinced it would’ve worked out antway. The Sox see Blake everyday, which is far more important than game reps.

[Slasher9]

#BringBackBen

 

He should have never left. As predicted the day he was hired..,,DD has demolished our Farm. The hope was that the decimation would lead to a parade but that is still TBD.

So the scoreboard remains...Red Sox parades:

Ben = 1

DD = 0

[OH FOY]

Vazquez was signed as a Catcher when he was 17 years old. Swihart was converted to Catcher much later. He really didn't start competitive Catching until he was 20.

Actually Vazquez was Drafted sorry. Don't matter at this point, Sox should do all they could to move on from Swihart. See if he could resurrect his career somewhere else. Good chance he could too, the way the Catching state is in the Majors, a .240 hitter is a Hall of Famer.

Edited May 19, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Bellhorn04]

Vazquez was signed as a Catcher when he was 17 years old. Swihart was converted to Catcher much later. He really didn't start competitive Catching until he was 20.

Actually Vazquez was Drafted sorry. Don't matter at this point, Sox should do all they could to move on from Swihart. See if he could resurrect his career somewhere else. Good chance he could too, the way the Catching state is in the Majors, a .240 hitter is a Hall of Famer.

 

I don't think the state of catching is any worse than it's ever been. Good hitting, good defense catchers have always been a rare species.