The 2018 Bullpen Season Thread

[Natick to NC]

Everytime you say "tard" it really invalidates any good point you are trying to make.

 

You sir are right let me go back and change it ......ok done ...I get Lazy ....it's stupid to use such a word .TY for calling it and me out says something about you ...less of me .I know it's late to change it but it's worthy of a late change .My apologies.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Natick to NC

[mvp 78]

You sir are right let me go back and change it ......ok done ...I get Lazy ....it's stupid to use such a word .TY for calling it and me out says something about you ...less of me .I know it's late to change it but it's worthy of a late change .My apologies.

 

It's fine. I know everyone gets frustrated once in a while and that's ok. Just for some reason, that word was posted a ton yesterday and it felt out of place.

[Natick to NC]

It's fine. I know everyone gets frustrated once in a while and that's ok. Just for some reason, that word was posted a ton yesterday and it felt out of place.

 

It's lazy MVP and extremely offensive ...I know if I use it others may as well and that's even worse .Good for you though pointing it out .I like that bud ...I'm a cocky prick sometimes.

[Emp9]

I'm thinking both look like perfect 1-2 IP type pitchers for the 6th to 7th innings (8th when Smith or Kimbrel need a day off.).

 

We need Smith to earn the 8th inning role.

 

Hembree might earn a vital role, too.

 

Kelly, Barnes, Hembree, all three seem to be typical 6th - 7th (8th in a pinch, maybe 15% of of time) guys to me. I thought Barnes last night was going to go with the high-heat on that 3-2 count (on his first Walk) to induce a SO. I’m not sure who’s call it was to go middle-outside, because I thought he got a high strike-swinging earlier in the count. Seemed like a foreshadowing or blueprint on how to end that AB. But whatever, what do I know? Either way, our guys usually have “the stuff”, but they do lack control/location to make them elite (for lack of a better word).

 

Ideally, the plan was Smith/Thornburg for the 8th, which eventually may happen later on in the season. Still might happen. In any event, I look to Smith to regain his form and I really hate judging him by his opening day performance. All these guys need more reps to even begin to make any serious assessment, and that’s weeks and weeks away. We haven’t even had our home opener yet.

[moonslav59]

Kelly, Barnes, Hembree, all three seem to be typical 6th - 7th (8th in a pinch, maybe 15% of of time) guys to me. I thought Barnes last night was going to go with the high-heat on that 3-2 count (on his first Walk) to induce a SO. I’m not sure who’s call it was to go middle-outside, because I thought he got a high strike-swinging earlier in the count. Seemed like a foreshadowing or blueprint on how to end that AB. But whatever, what do I know? Either way, our guys usually have “the stuff”, but they do lack control/location to make them elite (for lack of a better word).

 

Ideally, the plan was Smith/Thornburg for the 8th, which eventually may happen later on in the season. Still might happen. In any event, I look to Smith to regain his form and I really hate judging him by his opening day performance. All these guys need more reps to even begin to make any serious assessment, and that’s weeks and weeks away. We haven’t even had our home opener yet.

 

Agreed, when everyone is healthy, Kimbrel for the 9th, Smith for 8th and 9th and Thornburg for the 8th. That would leave Barnes, Kelly and Hembree for the 6th and 7th (rarely the 8th).

 

That's not a bad set-up, assuming good health by all.

[mvp 78]

Agreed, when everyone is healthy, Kimbrel for the 9th, Smith for 8th and 9th and Thornburg for the 8th. That would leave Barnes, Kelly and Hembree for the 6th and 7th (rarely the 8th).

 

That's not a bad set-up, assuming good health by all.

 

It looks a lot better than it does now, especially after you replace Kelly with ANYONE else.

[moonslav59]

It looks a lot better than it does now, especially after you replace Kelly with ANYONE else.

 

The pen has a 1.71 ERA other than that one awful inning game one.

[mvp 78]

The pen has a 1.71 ERA other than that one awful inning game one.

 

I just don't like Kelly. It's irrational, but I can't help it.

[Spudboy]

It's fine. I know everyone gets frustrated once in a while and that's ok. Just for some reason, that word was posted a ton yesterday and it felt out of place.

 

I understand. What about f***tard? Is that politically unacceptable too?

[moonslav59]

I just don't like Kelly. It's irrational, but I can't help it.

 

Kelly's fastball is super fast, but it barely moves around. I'm not sure it's a good thing bringing him in right after a FB pitcher. If you bring him in after a breaking ball or curve ball pitcher, he might have more success.

 

I have confidence in Kelly as a 6th or 7th inning guy but not really the 8th or 9th.

[Maxbialystock]

Interesting discussion, especially when there is a similar one ongoing about managerial decisions.

 

In the two threads I see an interesting dichotomy. On this one moonslav has pointed out that, as barely adequate as this bullpen may or may not be, they have actually been pretty darn good over 6 games and 21 (I thought it was 22) innings if you just throw out the 8th inning of game 1. Still the consensus here seems to be that this bullpen needs to get better. Even Kimbrel had two baserunners in each of two of this three one-inning stints.

 

Over on the other thread, no mention of course of the bullpen and hardly any mention of the 5-1 record. Instead the focus is on that 8th inning of game one, now topped by not starting Betts in RF last night. Cora, it seems, may not be clueless, but sometimes seems to be. How could anyone in his right mind leave Kelly in or not start Betts?

 

Me, I think Cora has done a terrific job managing this pitching staff through the first six games, especially when only one starter went 7 innings, and the other five (Sale twice) went 6 or 5 innings. That reality required Cora to make a whole lot of pitching decisions, and in my view most of them turned out to be pretty darn good, especially in view of the apparent consensus on this thread that this bullpen ain't quite all it can be.

 

I am especially fascinated by the discussion on Kelly, the lead perp in game 1, inning 8. No one here seems to think he's much good, but Cora used him to close a 2-1 game--and it worked. That's the game Velazquez started and went 5.2, followed by Walden's semi-miraculous (he was hit hard--line drive outs) 1.1 innings, Poyner's .1, Barnes's .2, and Kelly's 1 inning. To me that was brilliant managing, but also completely unacknowledged.

 

Over on the other thread there is nary a peep or comment that just maybe Cora knows what he is doing with his pitchers, who only have the best ERA (2.20) in MLB despite the adequate bullpen and being without Pomeranz, ERod, Wright, Thornburg, et al

[kenmeister]

Kelly's fastball is super fast, but it barely moves around. I'm not sure it's a good thing bringing him in right after a FB pitcher. If you bring him in after a breaking ball or curve ball pitcher, he might have more success.

 

I have confidence in Kelly as a 6th or 7th inning guy but not really the 8th or 9th.

 

To me, that's the definition of a "4A" player. Too good for the minors, not quite good enough for the majors. Hopefully when the next pitcher comes back from the DL, he takes a trip to Pawtucket. He needs to learn a new pitch to make his fastball effective.

[Bellhorn04]

Um, didn't Kelly pitch the 8th and 9th innings last night giving up just a walk?

[moonslav59]

To me, that's the definition of a "4A" player. Too good for the minors, not quite good enough for the majors. Hopefully when the next pitcher comes back from the DL, he takes a trip to Pawtucket. He needs to learn a new pitch to make his fastball effective.

 

The guy put up some impressive numbers last year:in 238 PAs (just 16 less PAs than Kimbrel):

 

OPS against: .573 Kelly

 

Late & Close OPS against: .571

 

High Leverage OPS against: .523 (better than anyone except Kimbrel)

 

K/BB was not good: 1.93 Kelly, but the WHIP was decent: 1.19.

 

These numbers were far from 4A guys.

 

 

[moonslav59]

2017 numbers

 

7th Inning OPS Against (20+ IP)

.288 Price

.440 Fister

.561 Kelly

.579 Kimbrel

.702 Abad

.709 Sale

 

8th Inning OPS Against (20+ PAs)

.348 Price

.460 Kelly

.490 Sale

.541 Kimbrel

.593 Fister

 

9th Inning

.120 Kimbrel (YES! .120 in the 9th in 25 PAs!)

.206 Scott

.237 Barnes

.422 Fister

.493 Price

.549 Sale

.573 Kelly

 

 

[Maxbialystock]

2017 numbers

 

7th Inning OPS Against (20+ IP)

.288 Price

.440 Fister

.561 Kelly

.579 Kimbrel

.702 Abad

.709 Sale

 

8th Inning OPS Against (20+ PAs)

.348 Price

.460 Kelly

.490 Sale

.541 Kimbrel

.593 Fister

 

9th Inning

.120 Kimbrel (YES! .120 in the 9th in 25 PAs!)

.206 Scott

.237 Barnes

.422 Fister

.493 Price

.549 Sale

.573 Kelly

 

 

 

You always come up with cool stats. Yes, Kimbrel's .120 OPS against number in the 9th is fantastic. But I noticed it was 4 1/2 times that in the 8th inning. To me that number is a cautionary note for those who want to bring Kimbrel in early to get maybe a 2 inning save.

[Maxbialystock]

The guy put up some impressive numbers last year:in 238 PAs (just 16 less PAs than Kimbrel):

 

OPS against: .573 Kelly

 

Late & Close OPS against: .571

 

High Leverage OPS against: .523 (better than anyone except Kimbrel)

 

K/BB was not good: 1.93 Kelly, but the WHIP was decent: 1.19.

 

These numbers were far from 4A guys.

 

 

 

Good stuff. I have always thought Kelly was a MLB pitcher, but one to be used with caution. To me the best relievers have good breaking stuff they can control (keep it low in the zone). Kimbrel is not Kimbrel when he can't get strikes with that breaking ball. I think Kelly's fastball is fine, but not when the batter knows that's what's coming. In the infamous 8th in game 1, Kelly walked the first guy, K'd the second, and gave up a double on a slider in the geometric center of the zone to the third better. Thereafter, he relied too much on his fastball and hitting corners with it. I think both those walks were on 3-2 counts.

[Slasher9]

I understand. What about f***tard? Is that politically unacceptable too?

 

f***·tard

ˈfəkˌtärd/

nounvulgar slang

noun: f***tard; plural noun: f***tard

 

a contemptible or stupid person.

 

i think this one is a bit of a gray area?

[Spudboy]

f***·tard

ˈfəkˌtärd/

nounvulgar slang

noun: f***tard; plural noun: f***tard

 

a contemptible or stupid person.

 

i think this one is a bit of a gray area?

 

I think so too. I mostly use it to describe certain politicians.

[kenmeister]

Um, didn't Kelly pitch the 8th and 9th innings last night giving up just a walk?

 

That's the thing with Kelly. He's impressive until ... he's not. Hopefully by May I'll agree to eat those words.

[cp176]

You sir are right let me go back and change it ......ok done ...I get Lazy ....it's stupid to use such a word .TY for calling it and me out says something about you ...less of me .I know it's late to change it but it's worthy of a late change .My apologies.

 

Oh for Gods sake - change the a to u and you are good to go.

[cp176]

With respect to our bullpen, I think the landscape changes when E-Rod and Pomeranz both return. I think that it is likely that Johnson goes to the pen which gives our bullpen a pretty good look if you ask me.

[mvp 78]

I understand. What about f***tard? Is that politically unacceptable too?

 

Maybe mildly better? IDK. It's not a term I see thrown around a whole lot. Again, I'm not a trained linguist.

[mvp 78]

I think so too. I mostly use it to describe certain politicians.

 

Now there is a word we shouldn't be throwing around. Yuck.

[mvp 78]

Is the first person to be sent down Poyner or Walden? Walden hasn't been very impressive from what I've seen. I think I'd rather have Hembree or Kelly.

[cp176]

Is the first person to be sent down Poyner or Walden? Walden hasn't been very impressive from what I've seen. I think I'd rather have Hembree or Kelly.

 

Hembree and Kelly I think will both have their ups and downs - they are not going anywhere. Their good days can be great but on the bad days - oh boy. They both are going to help us but I am rarely comfortable with either one of them coming in when the game is on the line. I might actually feel the same way about Barnes. I think that Smith is going to have an excellent year and nothing else needs to be said about Kimbrel. Walden has a good arm but man oh man has he looked hittable. Poyner is similar to Johnson. they kind of came along together. They both know how to pitch. They can get guys out. If the choice between Poyner and Walden had to be made today - I would send Walden down. I like Johnson as a starter but moving him to the pen could help them become a very very good bullpen. Obviously I'm thinking that Brian Johnson could become a key player for us going forward. You just don't have to have that big power arm to get the job done. I like relief pitchers who throw strikes and don't walk people.

[Maxbialystock]

With respect to our bullpen, I think the landscape changes when E-Rod and Pomeranz both return. I think that it is likely that Johnson goes to the pen which gives our bullpen a pretty good look if you ask me.

 

Not a bad idea.

[S5Dewey]

Hembree and Kelly I think will both have their ups and downs - they are not going anywhere. Their good days can be great but on the bad days - oh boy. They both are going to help us but I am rarely comfortable with either one of them coming in when the game is on the line. I might actually feel the same way about Barnes. I think that Smith is going to have an excellent year and nothing else needs to be said about Kimbrel. Walden has a good arm but man oh man has he looked hittable. Poyner is similar to Johnson. they kind of came along together. They both know how to pitch. They can get guys out. If the choice between Poyner and Walden had to be made today - I would send Walden down. I like Johnson as a starter but moving him to the pen could help them become a very very good bullpen. Obviously I'm thinking that Brian Johnson could become a key player for us going forward. You just don't have to have that big power arm to get the job done. I like relief pitchers who throw strikes and don't walk people.

 

One of the prime requisites for a reliever is that THEY DON'T WALK PEOPLE!!!

[cp176]

One of the prime requisites for a reliever is that THEY DON'T WALK PEOPLE!!!

 

Ain't that the truth. It is why that as much as I like Kelly's power arm, I am never really comfortable with him. It is also a reason why I would never consider having Wright in the bullpen.

[Larry Cook]

Hembree’s Arm could fall off by June if we are not careful.