The Alex Cora Managerial Decision Thread

[Kimmi]

Scott was brought in to face the #9 hitter and then 2 lefty hitters. Cora said 'these are the situations he's here for' or similar words. Scott did a lousy job, obviously. Maybe you could chalk it up as a managerial mistake, but there was some reasoning behind it.

 

There was some reasoning to it, of course.

 

That said, this is one time in which I definitely think Cora made the wrong decision. Kelly is the 8th inning guy in high leverage situations. He should have gotten the call, IMO.

 

I would like to emphasize that even though I think Cora made the wrong decision, I am not blaming the loss on Cora. Cora did not cost the team this game.

[Kimmi]

After seeing the box score this morning, I'm just glad I missed the eight inning.

 

LOL

 

One of the downsides of being off for the summer (if there are any downsides) is that I was able to stay up and suffer through that misery.

[Kimmi]

Fascinating discussion about Scott and Cora. My take on the game was that the hitting stunk, pure and simple, so I wasn't so sure we were going to score any more runs.

 

And about the infamous 8th. Scott left the game with the score tied, 1 man out, runners on 1st and 2d, and Kelly coming to the mound, where he has been very good this year when the game is on the line and he inherits baserunners.

 

Does anyone besides me remember the 6th inning when the first two batters got on against Christ Sale, after which he got a ground out and then gave up a 2 run double? Scott and Kelly--at least for those first two runs scored by the Twins in the 8th--did no worse than the great, indomitable Chris Sale did in the 6th inning.

 

I'm sorry, but in my view last night is entirely on the players and not Alex Cora. Chris Sale gave up a 1 run lead in the 6th in a moment of weakness. The lineup stunk all night long. And not one but two relievers--one of whom, Kelly, has closed a few times and has been great coming in with runners on base--gave up 2 runs which were all the Twins needed.

 

Cora is not to be blamed for the loss. With that, I agree. However, that does not mean that he didn't make a poor decision in bringing Scott into that situation.

[Station 13]

max, I disagree. If Cora was willing to go to his setup man in the 8th, doing so at the beginning of the inning is prudent. He tried to sneak the lefty in to lengthen his pen in case they went to extras and he got burned

 

Especially with the top of the order due up against Rodney. Cora screw the pooch once again.

[Maxbialystock]

LOL

 

One of the downsides of being off for the summer (if there are any downsides) is that I was able to stay up and suffer through that misery.

 

A teacher, huh? Good for you. Great profession. I did some myself, but never for more than 3 years in a row and never for the same subject as the one before.

 

I could have stayed up for the 8th, but had a premonition when Sale gave up 2 runs in the 6th. I think Sale is our best, but in my judgment he should have been tougher in the 6th.

[Maxbialystock]

Especially with the top of the order due up against Rodney. Cora screw the pooch once again.

 

Sure he did. it's never the players, and we can safely ignore the 2 for 13 with RISP, the 10 K's, Kelly giving up the extra base hits, Sale weakening in the 6th and giving up 2 runs, etc.

 

But my absolute favorite is the idea that good managers always put players in positions where they can succeed. Poor Scott having to pitch for a manager who doesn't have his best interests at heart. He deserves being sent out with at least an 8 run lead. For that matter, poor Kelly for having to go out to the mound with 2 on and just 1 out and the game tied. And why wasn't Hembree or someone brought in in the 6th when there were also 2 on with 1 out and Sale was clearly struggling? And what about the terrible lineup with the dregs of humanity in the bottom third?

[Slasher9]

Sure he did. it's never the players, and we can safely ignore the 2 for 13 with RISP, the 10 K's, Kelly giving up the extra base hits, Sale weakening in the 6th and giving up 2 runs, etc.

 

But my absolute favorite is the idea that good managers always put players in positions where they can succeed. Poor Scott having to pitch for a manager who doesn't have his best interests at heart. He deserves being sent out with at least an 8 run lead. For that matter, poor Kelly for having to go out to the mound with 2 on and just 1 out and the game tied. And why wasn't Hembree or someone brought in in the 6th when there were also 2 on with 1 out and Sale was clearly struggling? And what about the terrible lineup with the dregs of humanity in the bottom third?

 

is it ever the manager?

[S5Dewey]

Fascinating discussion about Scott and Cora. My take on the game was that the hitting stunk, pure and simple, so I wasn't so sure we were going to score any more runs.

 

And about the infamous 8th. Scott left the game with the score tied, 1 man out, runners on 1st and 2d, and Kelly coming to the mound, where he has been very good this year when the game is on the line and he inherits baserunners.

 

Does anyone besides me remember the 6th inning when the first two batters got on against Christ Sale, after which he got a ground out and then gave up a 2 run double? Scott and Kelly--at least for those first two runs scored by the Twins in the 8th--did no worse than the great, indomitable Chris Sale did in the 6th inning.

 

I'm sorry, but in my view last night is entirely on the players and not Alex Cora. Chris Sale gave up a 1 run lead in the 6th in a moment of weakness. The lineup stunk all night long. And not one but two relievers--one of whom, Kelly, has closed a few times and has been great coming in with runners on base--gave up 2 runs which were all the Twins needed.

Nope, Sorry. One can always blame the offense for not scoring enough runs but this one's on Cora. As you said, "Scott left the game with the score tied, 1 man out, runners on 1st and 2d". The thing you left out is that situation was one of Scott's own making by walking those two hitters. It's hard for me to blame Scott because he never should have been put in that position. This one's on Cora.

[S5Dewey]

A teacher, huh? Good for you. Great profession. I did some myself, but never for more than 3 years in a row and never for the same subject as the one before.

 

I could have stayed up for the 8th, but had a premonition when Sale gave up 2 runs in the 6th. I think Sale is our best, but in my judgment he should have been tougher in the 6th.

 

I gave up after the 2nd walk in the 8th. I could see the writing on the wall and I didn't like what I was seeing. Here's the news flash and it ain't rocket science. As a reliever you SIMPLY DO NOT walk the first two batters you see.

 

I do get the rationale for not blaming Cora though. As the saying goes, if it's everyone's fault it's no one's fault.

[Station 13]

Sure he did. it's never the players, and we can safely ignore the 2 for 13 with RISP, the 10 K's, Kelly giving up the extra base hits, Sale weakening in the 6th and giving up 2 runs, etc.

 

But my absolute favorite is the idea that good managers always put players in positions where they can succeed. Poor Scott having to pitch for a manager who doesn't have his best interests at heart. He deserves being sent out with at least an 8 run lead. For that matter, poor Kelly for having to go out to the mound with 2 on and just 1 out and the game tied. And why wasn't Hembree or someone brought in in the 6th when there were also 2 on with 1 out and Sale was clearly struggling? And what about the terrible lineup with the dregs of humanity in the bottom third?

 

So the best thing for a team trying to win is to run out a LOOGY who just been on the roster that day in a tie game in the 8th on the road? Who proceeded to put on two base runners, their 9th hitter and Mauer. The bullpen was well rested, having enjoyed Sunday blowout win and off day on Monday.

 

Hitters won't always have a good night. But the game was tie. Cora have to use his best to win. That's not a time to run out Robby Scott.

[a700hitter]

It was idiocy putting Scott in a high leverage situation like that in his first game of the year in the bigs when the 8th inning guy was available to start the inning. He got cute, hopping not to have to use Kelly, and he got burned twice. He lost the game and he burned Kelly anyway.

 

Edit: It will be obvious that it was a mistake, because Core will not use Scott or any other bullpen pig in a 1 run game in the 8th inning when the high leverage guys are available.

Edited June 20, 2018 by a700hitter

[Maxbialystock]

Nope, Sorry. One can always blame the offense for not scoring enough runs but this one's on Cora. As you said, "Scott left the game with the score tied, 1 man out, runners on 1st and 2d". The thing you left out is that situation was one of Scott's own making by walking those two hitters. It's hard for me to blame Scott because he never should have been put in that position. This one's on Cora.

 

I know what Scott did. He did exactly the same thing Sale did in the 6th inning--put the first two guys on before getting an out. I believe both of them, Scott and Sale, got an HBP in the process of putting two men on base. Then Sale did exactly what Kelly did and gave up a double to bring in those two runs and put the Twins up, 2-1.

 

Also, to me there's a world of difference between a tie game and a 1 run lead for the good guys. In the latter, I'm for pulling out all the stops to preserve the lead and get the win. With a tie game, you are gambling that you will score again.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Maxbialystock

[fxkatt]

Well, there's no hind-sight for some of us, because we called it before any walk was given (on the game forum). No manager would bring in the newly arrived Scott in this context. None. Esp right after a day off (i mean how much rest does this effing team need?) and just after tying the game at 2-2 in the top of the 8th. It's time for the your shut down guy, who 85% of the time (Kelly) will come through. Scott needs to come in for the first time in a blowout or in the 5-6th innings.

[notin]

It's ready to rip Cora for bringing in Scott, but it's not like we know who else was available...

[Slasher9]

It's ready to rip Cora for bringing in Scott, but it's not like we know who else was available...

 

it was a day off on Monday. every arm was available.

[mvp 78]

Scott has a career 0.7 WHIP against LHB. That's pretty good. He was a good bet to come in and get a few outs. It just didn't work out.

[Maxbialystock]

Well, there's no hind-sight for some of us, because we called it before any walk was given (on the game forum). No manager would bring in the newly arrived Scott in this context. None. Esp right after a day off (i mean how much rest does this effing team need?) and just after tying the game at 2-2 in the top of the 8th. It's time for the your shut down guy, who 85% of the time (Kelly) will come through. Scott needs to come in for the first time in a blowout or in the 5-6th innings.

 

I looked at the game thread and the comments when Scott went into the game were mixed, beginning with Station13 asking who the heck this guy was. Several pointed out Scott is experienced and good against lefty bats. Someone said it was the bottom of the order.

 

To me there is a huge difference between preserving a win and hoping to win as is the case in a tie game.

 

Also, you refer to Kelly as the shut down guy, but he's the one who gave up the walk, the double, and the triple without getting a single out. How shut down is that? In fact, Scott actually pitched better than Kelly in last night's game. He only gave up a walk and an HBP, plus he got an out.

 

Since Scott and Kelly both stunk only Kelly stunk worse, who would you have sent out to pitch the 8th in a tie game? How about Kimbrel who hadn't pitched since last Thursday?

[Slasher9]

I looked at the game thread and the comments when Scott went into the game were mixed, beginning with Station13 asking who the heck this guy was. Several pointed out Scott is experienced and good against lefty bats. Someone said it was the bottom of the order.

 

To me there is a huge difference between preserving a win and hoping to win as is the case in a tie game.

 

Also, you refer to Kelly as the shut down guy, but he's the one who gave up the walk, the double, and the triple without getting a single out. How shut down is that? In fact, Scott actually pitched better than Kelly in last night's game. He only gave up a walk and an HBP, plus he got an out.

 

Since Scott and Kelly both stunk only Kelly stunk worse, who would you have sent out to pitch the 8th in a tie game? How about Kimbrel who hadn't pitched since last Thursday?

sounds like cora screwed up.

[oldtimer]

I looked at the game thread and the comments when Scott went into the game were mixed, beginning with Station13 asking who the heck this guy was. Several pointed out Scott is experienced and good against lefty bats. Someone said it was the bottom of the order.

 

To me there is a huge difference between preserving a win and hoping to win as is the case in a tie game.

 

Also, you refer to Kelly as the shut down guy, but he's the one who gave up the walk, the double, and the triple without getting a single out. How shut down is that? In fact, Scott actually pitched better than Kelly in last night's game. He only gave up a walk and an HBP, plus he got an out.

 

Since Scott and Kelly both stunk only Kelly stunk worse, who would you have sent out to pitch the 8th in a tie game? How about Kimbrel who hadn't pitched since last Thursday?

 

I think Cora sent out guys who should have done better. That's all he can do. The players then are responsible for the results.

[Maxbialystock]

Nope, Sorry. One can always blame the offense for not scoring enough runs but this one's on Cora. As you said, "Scott left the game with the score tied, 1 man out, runners on 1st and 2d". The thing you left out is that situation was one of Scott's own making by walking those two hitters. It's hard for me to blame Scott because he never should have been put in that position. This one's on Cora.

 

Meh. Scott pitched better in the 8th than Sale did in the 6th and way, way better than Kelly in the 8th. If you blame one of those guys, you have to blame all of them--and the lack of hitting. Scott is 28 and has been pitching in MLB since 2016. He's been good against lefty bats and was sent out there to do his job, nothing more and against the bottom of the order at that. On top of which, we weren't preserving a lead but simply hoping to score again and maybe win.

[Maxbialystock]

So the best thing for a team trying to win is to run out a LOOGY who just been on the roster that day in a tie game in the 8th on the road? Who proceeded to put on two base runners, their 9th hitter and Mauer. The bullpen was well rested, having enjoyed Sunday blowout win and off day on Monday.

 

Hitters won't always have a good night. But the game was tie. Cora have to use his best to win. That's not a time to run out Robby Scott.

 

Scott is no babe in the woods. He's been here before and he's good against lefty bats and was going against the bottom of the order. Plus he actually pitched better--with those two walks but also an out--in the 8th than Sale did in the 6th and a whole lot better than Kelly (a walk, a double, a triple, and no outs) did in the same darn inning. If you blame Cora for sending Scott out for the 8th, you also have to blame him for sending Sale out in the 6th and Kelly out in the 8th.

[Maxbialystock]

sounds like cora screwed up.

 

You're darn right he screwed up. Sale had no business pitching in the 6th--he was done after the 5th--and Kelly had no business pitching in the 8th. When will Cora learn to make good judgments about the pitching staff?

 

For that matter, he also removed Scott in the 8th right after he got that out. The Twins got all their hits last night off righty pitchers and exactly 0 hits off of lefty pitchers.

[a700hitter]

You're darn right he screwed up. Sale had no business pitching in the 6th--he was done after the 5th--and Kelly had no business pitching in the 8th. When will Cora learn to make good judgments about the pitching staff?

 

For that matter, he also removed Scott in the 8th right after he got that out. The Twins got all their hits last night off righty pitchers and exactly 0 hits off of lefty pitchers.

You will see Sale pitch into the 6 th inning again this season. I’ll guarantee that. I’ll also guarantee that you will not see Scott start the 8th inning again with a 1 run lead when Barnes/Kelly are available. Even Cora knows it was a bad decision.

[Slasher9]

You're darn right he screwed up. Sale had no business pitching in the 6th--he was done after the 5th--and Kelly had no business pitching in the 8th. When will Cora learn to make good judgments about the pitching staff?

 

For that matter, he also removed Scott in the 8th right after he got that out. The Twins got all their hits last night off righty pitchers and exactly 0 hits off of lefty pitchers.

meh. managers are judged on their W-L. Maxbialystock says so. so that L (as all L's are) is on Cora.

[S5Dewey]

I know what Scott did. He did exactly the same thing Sale did in the 6th inning--put the first two guys on before getting an out. I believe both of them, Scott and Sale, got an HBP in the process of putting two men on base. Then Sale did exactly what Kelly did and gave up a double to bring in those two runs and put the Twins up, 2-1.

 

Also, to me there's a world of difference between a tie game and a 1 run lead for the good guys. In the latter, I'm for pulling out all the stops to preserve the lead and get the win. With a tie game, you are gambling that you will score again.

 

Wow. I didn't realize that. Who would have thought that after a stint in Pawtucket Scott would come back and be equal to CHRIS FREAKIN' SALE! Who do we bump out of the rotation now?

 

Get real. Bringing in Scott in that situation was a mistake and many of us saw it at the time. Scott may have done well against ML hitters last year and he may have done well against AAA hitting this year but this is the bigs in 2018. Your goal in a tie game is to not give up any more runs so you can win it with one swing of the bat. Bringing in Scott with NO ML experience this year was not the way to achieve that goal. Especially with a rested bullpen.

[Bellhorn04]

This has actually been a pretty good discussion.

[Dalas21000]

Ok Cora....You had to let Cruz hit his 2nd HR today before you took Wright out of the game? Wasn't it kind of obvious to take him out earlier? Pathetic....I think I've seen enough........

[moonslav59]

Ok Cora....You had to let Cruz hit his 2nd HR today before you took Wright out of the game? Wasn't it kind of obvious to take him out earlier? Pathetic....I think I've seen enough........

 

I just about never bitch about in game calls, but that was horrible.

[Maxbialystock]

I'm through defending Cora. Tonight was the dumbest job of managing I can remember. Wright showed how bad he was in the first inning. Cora has an extra pitcher right now, so there should be no hesitation on getting someone warm in the 2d inning, and Cora let it ride until the 4th. Stupid, stupid, stupid. This is especially galling because the Sox actually took the lead back in the 1st, so this game was winnable. Going into the 4th it was still winnable and Cora refused to warm anyone up until it was too late.

[Maxbialystock]

I just about never bitch about in game calls, but that was horrible.

 

It was, and it was horrible before Cruz came to the plate. Cora is showing his rookie colors tonight and I think in some prior games when I defended him.