Fire alex cora

[cp176]

Even in these two cases, money was a CLEAR PRIORITY over winning. Either of them could have taken less money, but both went for bidders at or near the top. It’s not like he took the lesser offer from the Phillies, who have been more successful the last two years than either the Dodgers or Mets (using postseason as a metric).

 

I don’t fault them for taking as much as they can get; I just don’t pretend winning is any where near as important.

 

And as for Cora, it’s not even just the money; the Sox are offering career advancement. This is his livelihood; why would he not take advantage everything being offered to him? Because the team isn’t signing the way the fans want? If winning was so important to Cora, why didn’t he stay in Houston?

 

If the Dodgers offered Cora less money to manage (and never do anything else), do you think he goes out stays?

 

First of all I would think that it is highly unlikely that he would make a parallel move for less money but you never know. I have a hunch that if someone goes after him they will offer him at least what he is currently making and who knows what else. It is not simply about the money. Some professionals actually do want a working environment that they can feel successful being in. It is possible that the apparent change in the way the Red Sox are doing things these days just doesn't line up with the way he views things.

[notin]

First of all I would think that it is highly unlikely that he would make a parallel move for less money but you never know. I have a hunch that if someone goes after him they will offer him at least what he is currently making and who knows what else. It is not simply about the money. Some professionals actually do want a working environment that they can feel successful being in. It is possible that the apparent change in the way the Red Sox are doing things these days just doesn't line up with the way he views things.

 

I doubt he Makes a lateral move for less money, but that is what is being postulated. Equal money and opportunities? Maybe. Better at both? Definitely…

[notin]

What I read is that the Mets were one of the first teams to submit a bid. They offered 12/325. Moto took that to the Dodgers and they matched.

 

Cohen had no chance to jump the bidding, that's the whole point. You don't think 325 was a healthy opening offer?

 

At what point does your argument boil down to “he took the $325mill over the Dodgers instead of the $325mill from the Mets! Clearly because he wants to win!”?

 

So if the far more successful Astros came in at $250mill, does he go to a Houston? Better track record for winning than either of those teams…

[moonslav59]

What I read is that the Mets were one of the first teams to submit a bid. They offered 12/325. Moto took that to the Dodgers and they matched.

 

Cohen had no chance to jump the bidding, that's the whole point. You don't think 325 was a healthy opening offer?

 

I never said that. My point all along was that Cohen was not as sure a bet as many seemed to think he was.

 

I mentioned the fact that the Sox could afford to bid $5M more than Cohen and was told Cohen would outbid others by $50M.

 

Obviously that was not the case. Maybe had he offered $375M/10, LAD would have matched that, too.

 

Not allowing the Mets to counter offer was weird. It may have forced the Dodgers to counter, again.

 

Look, I was wrong about our odds in winning the auction, but I was not wrong about Cohen.

[Bellhorn04]

At what point does your argument boil down to “he took the $325mill over the Dodgers instead of the $325mill from the Mets! Clearly because he wants to win!”?

 

Sure, let's just throw out the fact that he didn't give the Mets the chance to increase their bid and we don't know if Cohen would have offered $50 million more.

[Bellhorn04]

I never said that. My point all along was that Cohen was not as sure a bet as many seemed to think he was.

 

I mentioned the fact that the Sox could afford to bid $5M more than Cohen and was told Cohen would outbid others by $50M.

 

Obviously that was not the case. Maybe had he offered $375M/10, LAD would have matched that, too.

 

Not allowing the Mets to counter offer was weird. It may have forced the Dodgers to counter, again.

 

Look, I was wrong about our odds in winning the auction, but I was not wrong about Cohen.

 

How can you say you weren't wrong about Cohen when you don't know how high he was prepared to go?

 

Yamamoto didn't want an eBay auction.

[notin]

Sure, let's just throw out the fact that he didn't give the Mets the chance to increase their bid and we don't know if Cohen would have offered $50 million more.

 

The bottom line is he still prioritized the teams with the top offers and eliminated the lower ones, regardless of how good those teams were.

 

The Phillies were clearly interested and even made an offer. In the last two years, they’ve played in a World Series and an NLCS. The Dodgers have been to neither. The Mets were abysmal last year.

 

Why were the Phillies not a finalist? Their offer was reportedly substantial ; their team has been more successful than the Dodgers. So why were they not even in it? Instead of the Mets?

[Bellhorn04]

The bottom line is he still prioritized the teams with the top offers and eliminated the lower ones, regardless of how good those teams were.

 

The Phillies were clearly interested and even made an offer. In the last two years, they’ve played in a World Series and an NLCS. The Dodgers have been to neither. The Mets were abysmal last year.

 

Why were the Phillies not a finalist? Their offer was reportedly substantial ; their team has been more successful than the Dodgers. So why were they not even in it? Instead of the Mets?

 

How pray tell have the Phillies been more successful than the Dodgers? You must be referring to their success in the last two postseason crapshoots.

[Bellhorn04]

As far as regular season success, the Dodgers have been top dog for years now. It's a no-brainer. And landing Ohtani undoubtedly increased their appeal to Yamamoto even further.

[notin]

How pray tell have the Phillies been more successful than the Dodgers? You must be referring to their success in the last two postseason crapshoots.

 

I am. Granted it’s one metric

 

Of course for your “winning over money” argument to work, you need to explain why the Mets have been more successful than the Phillies…

[Old Red]

Sure, let's just throw out the fact that he didn't give the Mets the chance to increase their bid and we don't know if Cohen would have offered $50 million more.

 

I think the Yam Man wanted to go the Dodgers anyway especially after the BIG O signed there.

[notin]

As far as regular season success, the Dodgers have been top dog for years now. It's a no-brainer. And landing Ohtani undoubtedly increased their appeal to Yamamoto even further.

 

Fair argument the Astros have been as successful as the Dodgers. Why were they not finalists?

 

They didn’t get Ohtani, but they did jettison Yuri Gurriel…

[Bellhorn04]

I am. Granted it’s one metric

 

Of course for your “winning over money” argument to work, you need to explain why the Mets have been more successful than the Phillies…

 

The Mets were considered a finalist because of Cohen. But as I say, maybe Moto had no interest in them whatsoever.

 

I think in retrospect the fix was in once the Dodgers signed Ohtani, and set up the deal to give them a pile more cash to play with in the short term.

[Bellhorn04]

Fair argument the Astros have been as successful as the Dodgers. Why were they not finalists?

 

Did they even submit a bid? Pretty hard to be a finalist without one.

[notin]

Did they even submit a bid? Pretty hard to be a finalist without one.

 

Let’s say they didn’t. Probably true.

 

Why do you think they didn’t?

 

1. Not interested in pitching.

 

2. Couldn’t afford him.

 

Which reason is most likely?

[notin]

The Mets were considered a finalist because of Cohen. But as I say, maybe Moto had no interest in them whatsoever.

 

I think in retrospect the fix was in once the Dodgers signed Ohtani, and set up the deal to give them a pile more cash to play with in the short term.

 

Creative accountancy aside, the bottom line is the Dodgers committed $1.1BILLION DOLLARS to TWO BASEBALL PLAYERS who I am being told had something other than money as their primary motivation. Gee, how much would these two players have cost if they got greedy?

[Bellhorn04]

Creative accountancy aside, the bottom line is the Dodgers committed $1.1BILLION DOLLARS to TWO BASEBALL PLAYERS who I am being told had something other than money as their primary motivation. Gee, how much would these two players have cost if they got greedy?

 

But the present value of Ohtani's contract is less than the $500 million he was expected to get. And Ohtani is actually only being paid $2 million a year by the Dodgers for the next decade. That's not creative accounting, it's a fact. How do you reconcile those facts with the money being primary?

[Old Red]

Creative accountancy aside, the bottom line is the Dodgers committed $1.1BILLION DOLLARS to TWO BASEBALL PLAYERS who I am being told had something other than money as their primary motivation. Gee, how much would these two players have cost if they got greedy?

 

If the Mets, Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox all offered the very same contract 99.99% certainly that The Big O, and the Yam Man would have still ended up with the Dodgers.Wonder why that would have been.🤭

[notin]

But the present value of Ohtani's contract is less than the $500 million he was expected to get. And Ohtani is actually only being paid $2 million a year by the Dodgers for the next decade. That's not creative accounting, it's a fact. How do you reconcile those facts with the money being primary?

 

When Ohtani is done and retired from the Dodgers in the not-to-distant future, how much money will they have paid him, assuming no incentives are reached? And how much are those incentives?

 

I get if you don’t know the incentive stuff. I don’t either. But bottom line, how much are they on the hook for total?

 

Is there a possibility that within his lifetime, Ohtani collects $700mill from the Dodgers?

Edited December 23, 2023 by notin

[notin]

If the Mets, Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox all offered the very same contract 99.99% certainly that The Big O, and the Yam Man would have still ended up with the Dodgers.Wonder why that would have been.

 

My point - it starts with all offering the same contract. That tells you the top priority…

[Bellhorn04]

My point - it starts with all offering the same contract. That tells you the top priority…

 

So explain why he didn't pursue an even higher contract from Cohen when that opportunity clearly existed.

[notin]

So explain why he didn't pursue an even higher contract from Cohen when that opportunity clearly existed.

 

He got it down to the top two bidders. How is that not about money?

 

Now please explain why the Phillies were not a finalist and the Mets were. And make it about winning and success…

[notin]

So explain why he didn't pursue an even higher contract from Cohen when that opportunity clearly existed.

 

 

Also you seem to have ignored my question about how much Ohtani is getting paid within his lifetime. I don’t expect research; just a gut answer is fine…

[Bellhorn04]

He got it down to the top two bidders. How is that not about money?

 

Now please explain why the Phillies were not a finalist and the Mets were. And make it about winning and success…

 

This "finalist" stuff is nothing but a media creation. In what sense were the Mets a finalist? They made an offer, they weren't given a chance to increase it. Why are we even calling them a finalist? They made one of the highest offers, end of story.

 

As for the Phillies, I don't really know how much they offered or how serious they were. Please share if you have that information.

[Bellhorn04]

Also you seem to have ignored my question about how much Ohtani is getting paid within his lifetime. I don’t expect research; just a gut answer is fine…

 

All I know is the $700 million.

[Old Red]

This "finalist" stuff is nothing but a media creation. In what sense were the Mets a finalist? They made an offer, they weren't given a chance to increase it. Why are we even calling them a finalist? They made one of the highest offers, end of story.

 

As for the Phillies, I don't really know how much they offered or how serious they were. Please share if you have that information.

 

At least the Mets were given a second interview. Something the Red Sox didn’t get.

[notin]

All I know is the $700 million.

 

Ok then.

 

That’s what I would have said, too. Deferments aside, I’m not buying winning as the top priority when Ohtani will be collecting nearly 3/4 of a billion dollars for 10 years of baseball. Yes it will take longer to get the money, but Ohtani probably plans on living that long.

 

 

Im not buying winning is a top priority here. If he took less money, that’d help the argument. But he and Yamamoto clearly prioritized money over winning, and even your arguments support that. Especially the one where he used Cohen to drive up the price…

[Bellhorn04]

Im not buying winning is a top priority here. If he took less money, that’d help the argument. But he and Yamamoto clearly prioritized money over winning, and even your arguments support that. Especially the one where he used Cohen to drive up the price…

 

Flat out wrong. He didn't drive up the price. Cohen offered $325, so he already had that. The Dodgers simply matched it.

 

No different than Eflin last year - the Rays matched our offer and he signed with them, because he preferred to play there.

[notin]

Flat out wrong. He didn't drive up the price. Cohen offered $325, so he already had that. The Dodgers simply matched it.

 

No different than Eflin last year - the Rays matched our offer and he signed with them, because he preferred to play there.[/QUOTe]

 

Well, you had a theory earlier that Yamamoto never wanted Cohen. If so, he was there solely to establish the price…

[Bellhorn04]

Well, you had a theory earlier that Yamamoto never wanted Cohen. If so, he was there solely to establish the price…

 

And the theory hasn't changed.

 

In the final analysis, Cohen did establish the price. He didn't know that was what he was doing, but that's how these things work.

 

The Yankees reported offer of 10/300 had a higher AAV, BTW, and it appears they didn't get a chance to increase either.

 

It looks like it could have been a heck of a slugfest if that's what Moto wanted.