2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

[Kimmi]

Again, it's not hindsight for me. I hated the signing before it even happened.

 

I understand that wanting Moreland was not hindsight for you, although comparing his deal to some of the ones signed recently is hindsight. I was just responding to your question about why you couldn't criticize Dombrowski in hindsight.

 

I can understand you preferring other players over Moreland. I get that. I can understand you saying that we overpaid for Moreland, though at the time that we signed him, I disagree. But even with that, saying that his signing is terrible is just way over the top.

 

Perhaps the team likes Moreland's presence in the clubhouse? Perhaps they like the fact that Moreland can handle playing in Boston? Perhaps they know that Moreland will not complain about playing time if he doesn't play everyday?

[Kimmi]

That is your opinion which I respect. But it is an opinion no matter how sure you might be and regardless of a prior track record that you think a hat can be hung on. It is my opinion that the decision to ramp things up came from ownership - GM - followed by the coach. I don't think that Cora told them who to bring in. That is my opinion which I respect as much as I respect yours. i can point to nothing that makes me feel this way other than I believe in a chain of command that normally starts with the bosses. If he is listening and taking the suggestions of others and seeing that the job gets done - I call that both spearheading and initiating. i don't get to choose who does what based on something that I think I know or on what I think is any type of prior knowledge.

 

Once again, I think you give Dombrowski too much credit. He is simply not an analytics type. Henry is an analytics type. I think he realized his error in judgment when he said that the team was going to back away a little from the use of analytics.

 

But, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do respect that. Don't ever mistake my disagreeing with you as disrespect. That is never my intent.

[cp176]

Once again, I think you give Dombrowski too much credit. He is simply not an analytics type. Henry is an analytics type. I think he realized his error in judgment when he said that the team was going to back away a little from the use of analytics.

 

But, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do respect that. Don't ever mistake my disagreeing with you as disrespect. That is never my intent.

 

thanks and I think that it is healthy to have opposing points of view from time to time. Had to add - Maybe DD and I are two peas in a pod. He may not know everything about analytics but somewhat like me I don't think that he opposes much of anything that can be done to make our team better.

Edited March 17, 2018 by cp176

[notin]

Moreland is probably the least exciting first baseman for the Sox since Todd Benzinger, but to if the big error was that we blew the chance to get Lucas Duda cheaper, that's is really stretching.

 

And I get the $2-3mill difference. But that can be recouped by dropping the useless Brock Holt.

 

It's funny how people are complaining about overpayment on a 2 year $13mill deal, the same money we gave to Jonny Gomes and Chris Young ans no one complained. Be thankful you're not Angels' fans after that deal Justin Upton got...

[mvp 78]

Moreland is probably the least exciting first baseman for the Sox since Todd Benzinger, but to if the big error was that we blew the chance to get Lucas Duda cheaper, that's is really stretching.

 

And I get the $2-3mill difference. But that can be recouped by dropping the useless Brock Holt.

 

It's funny how people are complaining about overpayment on a 2 year $13mill deal, the same money we gave to Jonny Gomes and Chris Young ans no one complained. Be thankful you're not Angels' fans after that deal Justin Upton got...

 

Or Pujols

[notin]

Or Pujols

 

 

While true, Upton was extend thIs off-season prior to anyone realizing his much he would have really received on the open market. ...

[moonslav59]

Honestly, I think you are harping on this but then you do have 14,430 postings and counting. Move on to a new subject and give us a break.

 

Then tell others to stop saying my position is "hindsight".

[moonslav59]

Moreland is probably the least exciting first baseman for the Sox since Todd Benzinger, but to if the big error was that we blew the chance to get Lucas Duda cheaper, that's is really stretching.

 

And I get the $2-3mill difference. But that can be recouped by dropping the useless Brock Holt.

 

It's funny how people are complaining about overpayment on a 2 year $13mill deal, the same money we gave to Jonny Gomes and Chris Young ans no one complained. Be thankful you're not Angels' fans after that deal Justin Upton got...

 

We could have added that $2-3M difference plus the $2M for Holt and the $4-5M we have already, and we're looking at maybe a $10M get vs a $5M one mid season. (Who knows, maybe Cobb could behad for $10M.)

[moonslav59]

I understand that wanting Moreland was not hindsight for you, although comparing his deal to some of the ones signed recently is hindsight. I was just responding to your question about why you couldn't criticize Dombrowski in hindsight.

 

I can understand you preferring other players over Moreland. I get that. I can understand you saying that we overpaid for Moreland, though at the time that we signed him, I disagree. But even with that, saying that his signing is terrible is just way over the top.

 

Perhaps the team likes Moreland's presence in the clubhouse? Perhaps they like the fact that Moreland can handle playing in Boston? Perhaps they know that Moreland will not complain about playing time if he doesn't play everyday?

 

If Ben had signed Moreland, only to watch equal or better players sign weeks later, he'd be roasted and toasted for not having vision or being cluelss about the trending market and player value.

 

That was my point about "hindsight" criticism. DD is getting a free pass from those who bashed Ben for overpaying Pablo & HRam, when the HRam deal was viewed as a mild steal at the time. Hindsight bashing is fine for Ben, but not for DD, since there's "no way he could have known the market value was going to drop" for better players. One could argue there's no way Ben could know Pablo was going to fall off a cliff just as he entered prime and HRam would injure both shoulders in his first 2 years of his contract.

 

Look, I get the pricing hindsight argument, and I was prepared to pay Duda the projected $6M/1 by MLBTR as a better deal that Moreland's 2 year deal nobody projected (and $6.5M a year). That was foresight. What was the hurry to lock up Moreland before finding out what the hell was going on with teh slow market. Surely, one could think there was a possibility some bargains would be available later on, and with the glut of quality 1B/DH types on this winter's market, there's just no way DD would have been shut out on finding a 1B partener with HRam.

 

Sure, the Moose contract was shocking, and the Morrison one almost as shocking, but why is DD not held to the same standard as Ben?He missed a chance to cash in on the trend in an off season where he was the biggest spender in the market. Okay, okay, he didn't totally miss out. He got JD at a good rate. It's hard to know what Nunez's competition was. I don't fault him for those two signings.

 

I'm not a DD basher. I've been critical of his long term plan and the Moreland signing, but I like DD and love the team we have right now, except for Moreland and Holt (eating up over $8.5M).

[Bellhorn04]

That was my point about "hindsight" criticism. DD is getting a free pass from those who bashed Ben for overpaying Pablo & HRam, when the HRam deal was viewed as a mild steal at the time. Hindsight bashing is fine for Ben, but not for DD, since there's "no way he could have known the market value was going to drop" for better players. One could argue there's no way Ben could know Pablo was going to fall off a cliff just as he entered prime and HRam would injure both shoulders in his first 2 years of his contract.

 

You're comparing a $13 million signing to 2 signings that totaled $183 million or possibly $205 million. A little sense of proportion is necessary.

[Natick to NC]

Shifting gears ....JT Realmutto wants out we already have three catchers ...just how good is this kid ? Not saying I'm interested just a talented player what's his ceiling is he better than VAz ? If so what the hell are we waiting for ?

[moonslav59]

You're comparing a $13 million signing to 2 signings that totaled $183 million or possibly $205 million. A little sense of proportion is necessary.

 

I didn't realize hindsight judgement only starts at a certain dollar amount.

 

The Masterson signing was horrible and that was under $13M. (I joined in on the bashing on that one.)

[moonslav59]

Shifting gears ....JT Realmutto wants out we already have three catchers ...just how good is this kid ? Not saying I'm interested just a talented player what's his ceiling is he better than VAz ? If so what the hell are we waiting for ?

 

So, what? Trade Swihart, Chavis and Danny Diaz for JTR and then cut Leon loose?

[Natick to NC]

So, what? Trade Swihart, Chavis and Danny Diaz for JTR and then cut Leon loose?

 

Swi and Chvis ??? Ok point taken moving on .

[moonslav59]

Swi and Chvis ??? Ok point taken moving on .

 

Danny Diaz may be the best of the 3.

[Bellhorn04]

I didn't realize hindsight judgement only starts at a certain dollar amount.

 

Of course it matters. It all matters, years, dollars, performance.

 

Ben sunk $250 million into Pablo, Hanley and Castillo, in return for virtually net zero WAR.

 

Of course he's going to be slagged for that.

[moonslav59]

Of course it matters. It all matters, years, dollars, performance.

 

Ben sunk $250 million into Pablo, Hanley and Castillo, in return for virtually net zero WAR.

 

Of course he's going to be slagged for that.

 

Yes, "it matters" more when the blunder is $95M + $88M, but $13M still "matters."

 

I never said one mattered less than the other.

[notin]

Shifting gears ....JT Realmutto wants out we already have three catchers ...just how good is this kid ? Not saying I'm interested just a talented player what's his ceiling is he better than VAz ? If so what the hell are we waiting for ?

 

Sox don't have any prospects the Marlins would want. Realmuto will cost a random. Compared too him, Swihart is worthless. ...

[moonslav59]

Sox don't have any prospects the Marlins would want. Realmuto will cost a random. Compared too him, Swihart is worthless. ...

 

They might like Danny Diaz, who might be ML ready by the time the Marlins are relevant again. (just kidding)

 

Maybe Mata, Diaz and Swihart.

[Natick to NC]

Sox don't have any prospects the Marlins would want. Realmuto will cost a random. Compared too him, Swihart is worthless. ...

 

Worthless ?? Huh ? A Ransom of what Groome ,Chavis and a filler piece ? Oh I think we have plenty if we want to get a Catcher that's is as good as you say "Ransom" ....We have a Ransom.I don't watch many Marlin games but this kid seems like a hell of a player from every account ....How about Vaz ,Groome for this kid ? We have plenty of pieces ...and hey Blake is far from Worthless compared to Mike Trout he's still not Worthless ...JBJ keeps hitting like he has Mookie will be manning CF and you will get a chance to watch who you think is worthless...if Leon falters a nuts hair you will see mr worthless ...if Nunez falters filling in at second again Mr worthless ...in extra innings with no pitchers left ...you get to see mr worthless throw in upper 90s ....worthless doesn't fit this Athlete .

Edited March 18, 2018 by Natick to NC

[Natick to NC]

I need a break ...seems like I'm always defending Swihart and we are not related or am I on the payroll...Every one here is fantastic fans with valid views see you here at the start of the season ...I'm self banning myself from here a couple weeks ...Moon,Notin ,Harmony ,Bellhorn and the rest Thankyou for all the insight on our team.

[moonslav59]

lol!

[notin]

Worthless ?? Huh ? A Ransom of what Groome ,Chavis and a filler piece ? Oh I think we have plenty if we want to get a Catcher that's is as good as you say "Ransom" ....We have a Ransom.I don't watch many Marlin games but this kid seems like a hell of a player from every account ....How about Vaz ,Groome for this kid ? We have plenty of pieces ...and hey Blake is far from Worthless compared to Mike Trout he's still not Worthless ...JBJ keeps hitting like he has Mookie will be manning CF and you will get a chance to watch who you think is worthless...if Leon falters a nuts hair you will see mr worthless ...if Nunez falters filling in at second again Mr worthless ...in extra innings with no pitchers left ...you get to see mr worthless throw in upper 90s ....worthless doesn't fit this Athlete .

 

The Marlins were asking the Nationals for Victor Robles (BA top 5 prospect) for Realmuto. Groome and Chavis were both over 80....

[Spudboy]

Now look. You scared him off.

 

Jesus.

[moonslav59]

The Marlins were asking the Nationals for Victor Robles (BA top 5 prospect) for Realmuto. Groome and Chavis were both over 80....

 

Yeah, Swihart is untradeable, cause he's so good, but we can get JT for peanuts.

[cp176]

Yeah, Swihart is untradeable, cause he's so good, but we can get JT for peanuts.

 

Moon - come on - I do like reading your posts and am sure glad that we have a poster here who just keeps it going but really who has said that Swihart or anybody else on this team is untradeable? I don't think that that is the point anyone is making so what is the rush? I sense panic in posters here for sure but not in the Red Sox management team.

[Kimmi]

Moon - come on - I do like reading your posts and am sure glad that we have a poster here who just keeps it going but really who has said that Swihart or anybody else on this team is untradeable? I don't think that that is the point anyone is making so what is the rush? I sense panic in posters here for sure but not in the Red Sox management team.

 

No panic in the Red Sox management team as of now, but they are not beyond panicking. They've done it more than once in recent years, which is part of the reason that Swihart is in the situation that he's in today.

[Bellhorn04]

No panic in the Red Sox management team as of now, but they are not beyond panicking. They've done it more than once in recent years, which is part of the reason that Swihart is in the situation that he's in today.

 

Are you blaming Swihart's setback on them trying him in left field?

 

Couldn't it be that they've had strong doubts about his defensive abilities at catcher all along and wanted to give him a shot at another position?

[jacksonianmarch]

Are you blaming Swihart's setback on them trying him in left field?

 

Couldn't it be that they've had strong doubts about his defensive abilities at catcher all along and wanted to give him a shot at another position?

 

It was stupid at the time. They thought his bat was elite, yet almost all of his SR's had him as a high average, middling power hitter with developing patience. He wasn't an offensive juggernaut hence moving him off position before they even saw what they had there was really stupid. Swihart needed another year or two to become a big league level catcher. Heck, Jorge Posada caught for over a decade and he was clearly not great. He just learned how to catch well enough to make his bat overcome his deficiencies. I believe that was the case with Swihart. He'd be a minus defender with enough of a plus offensively for the position to make him an above average regular. Instead, they moved him to a position where offense is a premium and even if he turned into a good LFer, his bat would have been a minus. I'd get it if they moved him to 3b or 2b and saw if his bat plus defensive development maximize his value, but moving him to LF was just dumb. I honestly think the sox have demolished Blake Swihart's future and I think Blake would be better off being dealt to SD or to Atlanta and effectively having an MLB internship as a catcher

[cp176]

No panic in the Red Sox management team as of now, but they are not beyond panicking. They've done it more than once in recent years, which is part of the reason that Swihart is in the situation that he's in today.

 

I disagee - a panic move would be one that did not appear necessary. That move did . The only panic I see comes from posters here.