2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

[Bellhorn04]

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/02/02/players-are-getting-pretty-dang-upset-about-the-lack-of-free-agent-signings/

 

Earlier this week, in conference calls that union officials held with player representatives, players asked about the viability of collectively refusing to show up at spring training until Feb. 24, the mandatory reporting date, according to sources. It was a significant step — signed players standing up for unsigned players — but the union informed the players that an organized action of that sort would constitute an unlawful strike in violation of the CBA, and the players dropped the idea, sources said.

 

Seems like the players aren't actually aware of what the union contract says. Maybe they'll pay attention and get a better deal from the owners this time?

 

You mean next time, which is a few years away.

 

The union seems to have gotten snookered a bit this time around.

[mvp 78]

You mean next time, which is a few years away.

 

The union seems to have gotten snookered a bit this time around.

 

Yup, this time = next time

 

They have a few years to get themselves worked up about it. First thing they need to do is can Tony Clark. They got snookered the past 2 contracts, but that's 100% on them. When times are good, nobody cares about the details. When times go bad, it's all "hey WTF did we sign onto". I don't have too much sympathy for them. At least they still have a stronger union than the NFLPA.

[Bellhorn04]

Yup, this time = next time

 

They have a few years to get themselves worked up about it. First thing they need to do is can Tony Clark. They got snookered the past 2 contracts, but that's 100% on them. When times are good, nobody cares about the details. When times go bad, it's all "hey WTF did we sign onto". I don't have too much sympathy for them. At least they still have a stronger union than the NFLPA.

 

Yeah, I don't really have a whole lot of sympathy either, but serious labor unrest isn't good for anybody, especially us fans.

[mvp 78]

Yeah, I don't really have a whole lot of sympathy either, but serious labor unrest isn't good for anybody, especially us fans.

 

The fans seem to take the brunt of it. At least now there's extended netting!

[S5Dewey]

I still don't know what's going on with the FA market this year. It appears that either Boras has fed his players unrealistic expectations and all the other agents are waiting for Boras to 'set the market' or else the teams are stonewalling the players.

.

A little anecdote - I've mentioned that I did some negotiating at one time and the plant I worked at was veryyy close to striking. It was near the 24th hour that the top management negotiator made what I thought was an interesting comment. "Strikes over money have a way of getting solved, but strikes over principle can go on for a long time". I'm now wondering if this Sox vs. Martinez thing hasn't become an issue of principle more than of money.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm now wondering if this Sox vs. Martinez thing hasn't become an issue of principle more than of money.

 

I think in this case money and principle are pretty much tied together, in the minds of JDM and Boras at least.

[harmony]

It would have been nice if he explained the last part, as in what other team might sign Martinez.

Perhaps other teams have exercised the appropriate discretion in confidential contract negotiations.

 

Maybe other clubs aren't hounded by the media as much as the Red Sox are, which could help explain the dearth of leaks from other teams.

 

Or not.

[moonslav59]

Perhaps other teams have exercised the appropriate discretion in confidential contract negotiations.

 

Maybe other clubs aren't hounded by the media as much as the Red Sox are, which could help explain the dearth of leaks from other teams.

 

Or not.

 

Yes, lots of maybes, but it's hard for me to think of another team that needs JD, is not resetting their tax, and will pay close to $25M x 5 or 6 years.

[mvp 78]

@EvanDrellich

 

Dave Dombrowski says he's not sure if this winter is a one off or something we will see repeated in response to a question about whether the system needs to be changed.

[harmony]

Yes, lots of maybes, but it's hard for me to think of another team that needs JD, is not resetting their tax, and will pay close to $25M x 5 or 6 years.

Many teams have money, openings in the outfield and no luxury tax concerns. The Red Sox are at a disadvantage on the last two factors.

[mvp 78]

@PeteAbe

 

Dombrowski again acknowledged the Sox need more power. But he doesn't know how or when or if that will happen.

[moonslav59]

Many teams have money, openings in the outfield and no luxury tax concerns. The Red Sox are at a disadvantage on the last two factors.

 

We are not resetting the tax this year, so how is that a "disadvantage?"

 

We can afford $25M x 5 or 6 years, so again, how are we at a "disadvantage?"

 

Yes, several other teams can "afford" $25M, but almost all of them have shown no signs of spending that much on one player. The 2 teams that usually will spend that much (NYY & LAD) are resetting their tax this year.

 

I don't see the disadvantage at all, except the DH vs OF issue or ruse.

[bkzwhitestrican]

Players should oppose the luxury tax in the next CBA. If it didn't exist then the top players would have signed by now.

[harmony]

We are not resetting the tax this year, so how is that a "disadvantage?"

 

We can afford $25M x 5 or 6 years, so again, how are we at a "disadvantage?"

 

Yes, several other teams can "afford" $25M, but almost all of them have shown no signs of spending that much on one player. The 2 teams that usually will spend that much (NYY & LAD) are resetting their tax this year.

 

I don't see the disadvantage at all, except the DH vs OF issue or ruse.

I suspect J.D. Martinez is not signing a one-year contract. Luxury tax issues should arise down the road if the Red Sox want to extend Mookie Betts, Jackie Bradley, Xander Bogaerts, Craig Kimbrel, Chris Sale and/or Drew Pomeranz.

 

The big spenders are no longer limited to the New York Yankees, Los Angeles Dodgers and Chicago Cubs. With revenue sharing a club with a current payroll less than half than the Boston payroll can afford big tickets.

[Bellhorn04]

I suspect J.D. Martinez is not signing a one-year contract. Luxury tax issues should arise down the road if the Red Sox want to extend Mookie Betts, Jackie Bradley, Xander Bogaerts, Craig Kimbrel, Chris Sale and/or Drew Pomeranz.

 

The big spenders are no longer limited to the New York Yankees, Los Angeles Dodgers and Chicago Cubs. With revenue sharing a club with a current payroll less than half than the Boston payroll can afford big tickets.

 

The Red Sox are clearly one of the teams with the most motivation to sign Martinez. They need a power bat, they have a window to compete for a championship, they have a fanbase they want to keep interested in order to keep their revenues up.

 

All factors considered, what other teams have as much motivation to sign Martinez?

[mvp 78]

The Red Sox are clearly one of the teams with the most motivation to sign Martinez. They need a power bat, they have a window to compete for a championship, they have a fanbase they want to keep interested in order to keep their revenues up.

 

All factors considered, what other teams have as much motivation to sign Martinez?

 

Doesn't seem like any other team has similar motivation.

[moonslav59]

I suspect J.D. Martinez is not signing a one-year contract. Luxury tax issues should arise down the road if the Red Sox want to extend Mookie Betts, Jackie Bradley, Xander Bogaerts, Craig Kimbrel, Chris Sale and/or Drew Pomeranz.

 

The big spenders are no longer limited to the New York Yankees, Los Angeles Dodgers and Chicago Cubs. With revenue sharing a club with a current payroll less than half than the Boston payroll can afford big tickets.

 

The Sox are clearly prepared to pay large and long. They reset the tax for this purpose.

 

Yes, a JD signing will affect the Sox down the road more than teams not over the limit, but we've been over many years before.

[Jack Flap]

So, this seems...very silly.

 

A prominent Major League Baseball agent said Friday that a "fight is brewing'' over the lack of free-agent activity in the game this offseason, and said a spring training boycott might be on the horizon if teams don't begin signing players soon.

 

Agent Brodie Van Wagenen of CAA stopped short of using the word "collusion,'' but said the behavior of owners "feels coordinated, rightly or wrongly.''

 

"There is a rising tide among players for radical change,'' Van Wagenen said in a Twitter post Friday. "A fight is brewing. And it may begin with one, maybe two, and perhaps 1,200 willing to follow. A boycott of spring training may be a starting point, if behavior doesn't change.

 

"Bottom line, the players are upset. No, they are outraged. Players in the midst of long-term contracts are as frustrated as those still seeking employment. Their voices are getting louder and they are uniting in a way not seen since 1994.''

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22300069/agent-says-fight-brewing-slow-mlb-free-agent-market

 

 

 

I get that the owners aren't exactly the most sympathetic group, but it's hard for me to put all of this on them. From what's been reported publicly, Martinez has been sitting on at least one 5-year offer, and Hosmer at least two 7-year offers; there was a report a few weeks back about Darvish turning down 7 years from the Yankees as well; we know Santana saw a reasonable offer back in December, and took it; soon-to-be 32-year-old Lorenzo Cain managed to find himself a 5-year deal recently; and so on. Not all of these reports may be 100% accurate, but from the sum total of what we've learned this offseason, it seems these guys are getting offers - probably very solid ones - just not the ones they want, and that makes the playing the victim and crying about collusion seem absurd to me. The landscape of the game is changing as teams figure out that handing out massive contracts to 30+ year-old free agents whose best days are behind them is a losing proposition, and agents like Boras are way late to the party, still acting like their clients are entitled to the same dumb deals that they might have gotten in years past.

 

A lot of this seems like a pretty foreseeable result of the new CBA that seems designed to suppress spending (particularly by a team like the Red Sox that always lives close to the threshold) with increasingly draconian luxury tax measures, and IMO, if the players are so unhappy and discontented, they should first turn their ire on their own union for agreeing to it without getting much in return...

[moonslav59]

The players might be upset at the fact that they signed what they felt was an owner friendly contract that would keep things somewhat status quo, only to find out big signings are not as easy as before.

 

(Jack, I agree with your position, and the contracts signed so far, are in line with expectations.)

[harmony]

I hope the labor strife does not threaten the five Cactus League games I hope to see over three days early next month.

[notin]

What's also not helping is the fact that this isn't exactly the most impressive crop of free agents and next season might be.

 

Three of the top 4 pitchers have had Tommy John surgery, which isn't always av permanent fix. The remaining pitcher and the top hitter were both notoriously late bloomers who are getting a little old for 6 and 7 year deals. ERic Hosmer is ranked among the best solely because of his age and really, he isnt anything special at his position, despite his desire to be paid like he was...

[moonslav59]

Most of the big free agents have serious flaws. Some have had one big year (Moose & LoMo). Some are on and off (Hosmer). Some have never had a 650 PA season (JD).

 

Maybe their demands are just too "pie-in-the-sky", and their is no collusion.

[Spudboy]

The Red Sox Front office has been writing the sequel to Money Ball, the book that laid out the blueprint for how small market teams could stay competitive by trading away players were had reached maximum value for good prospects and by identifying good prospects through Cybermetrics.

 

The sequel is to be called Money Bull, the book that shows the way to spend money unwisely on long term contracts for players who had reached their prime and or are unproven at the ml level and hamstringing the organization. Precursoor reviews of this book may indeed be impacting the FA market.The chapters are:

 

1. Very Fat Contracts

2. Dread those dreadlocks

3. Craig Lists

4. Cuban defective

5. The Price is wrong

 

and thee outline of a new chapter is coming in:

 

6. Just Don't give More

 

This is f***ing excellent.

[Bellhorn04]

Most of the big free agents have serious flaws. Some have had one big year (Moose & LoMo). Some are on and off (Hosmer). Some have never had a 650 PA season (JD).

 

Maybe their demands are just too "pie-in-the-sky", and their is no collusion.

 

Yes, it's quite possible this is one of those 'perfect storm' situations.

 

It's not as though we see a bunch of megadeals every single offseason.

 

Last year only one free agent got a deal of $100K or more - Cespedes, who got 4/$110K.

[Natick to NC]

Lamest offseason ever .

[Kimmi]

If Hosmer has 7 year offers and is holding out for 8 he and Boras are being foolish.

 

Not only is Hosmer reportedly holding out for 8 years and JD holding out for 6 or more, but I read today that Darvish has multiple offers over $100 million and Holland just turned down a 3 year, $52 million dollar offer.

 

Seriously, what are these guys expecting?

[harmony]

Not only is Hosmer reportedly holding out for 8 years and JD holding out for 6 or more, but I read today that Darvish has multiple offers over $100 million and Holland just turned down a 3 year, $52 million dollar offer.

 

Seriously, what are these guys expecting?

A reasonable slice of the expanding revenue pie?

[Kimmi]

Yup, this time = next time

 

They have a few years to get themselves worked up about it. First thing they need to do is can Tony Clark. They got snookered the past 2 contracts, but that's 100% on them. When times are good, nobody cares about the details. When times go bad, it's all "hey WTF did we sign onto". I don't have too much sympathy for them. At least they still have a stronger union than the NFLPA.

 

Exactly. The players agreed to all of the parts of the CBA that are supposedly now contributing to this free agent freeze. Sorry, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for them.

[Kimmi]

Perhaps other teams have exercised the appropriate discretion in confidential contract negotiations.

 

Maybe other clubs aren't hounded by the media as much as the Red Sox are, which could help explain the dearth of leaks from other teams.

 

Or not.

 

I think you are nailing most of your posts with the 'or not'.

[harmony]

I think you are nailing most of your posts with the 'or not'.

I suspect that none of us on this forum knows for sure what's going on.