9/24 @ Cincinnati

[TylerD]

Ugly won't but I'll take it !!

[illinoisredsox]

Magic Numbers:

 

Division - 3

Wild Card - 0

[SoxHop]

This team has serious bouncebackability....

[cp176]

0 quit in these boys. After things started happening late, did you really ever doubt them getting it done. Not me!

[Thunder]

Streaking. Thunder has earned a playoff start.

Head.

 

I am not opposed to this

[Kimmi]

Folks, on September 15, is there anyone here who would not have signed up for a 7-2 road trip?

 

No kidding. Of course, we all tend to get greedy. LOL

[Northern Star]

This team has serious bouncebackability....

 

So does your mom.

 

Now we're even.

[SoxHop]

So does your mom.

 

Now we're even.

 

ahahahhah!!!!

[Kimmi]

I am surprised there is no comment on Hamilton scoring from 1st base on a play where he should have been easily picked off. Boneheaded defense!

 

Also, the game winning run was scored due to aggressive baserunning.

[SoxHop]

I am surprised there is no comment on Hamilton scoring from 1st base on a play where he should have been easily picked off. Boneheaded defense!

 

Also, the game winning run was scored due to aggressive baserunning.

 

That was pretty bad ass by Mookie. The thing is, his instinct is never wrong even when he gets caught......... I can't say that for the rest of the crew........

 

The boneheadiness has dropped considerably since Hanley has been out or rarely gets on base........

[Larry Cook]

It would be nice if we get Nunez healthy.

 

Pedroia is burnt toast out there and a detriment to the team.

[moonslav59]

It would be nice if we get Nunez healthy.

 

Pedroia is burnt toast out there and a detriment to the team.

 

Give him some time to recuperate.

[illinoisredsox]

I am surprised there is no comment on Hamilton scoring from 1st base on a play where he should have been easily picked off. Boneheaded defense!

 

Also, the game winning run was scored due to aggressive baserunning.

 

The Hamilton play is a tough one to defend (as in how do you defend it on paper). Workman blew it, IMO, he was late getting over there. Vazquez correctly went to back up the run down at first and ended up with the ball. Bogaerts correctly got in position to back up at second. Devers was covering 3rd just in case (also correct). I'm not sure who has to try and get to the plate in that situation (Bogaerts tried but just couldn't get there).

[moonslav59]

The Hamilton play is a tough one to defend (as in how do you defend it on paper). Workman blew it, IMO, he was late getting over there. Vazquez correctly went to back up the run down at first and ended up with the ball. Bogaerts correctly got in position to back up at second. Devers was covering 3rd just in case (also correct). I'm not sure who has to try and get to the plate in that situation (Bogaerts tried but just couldn't get there).

 

Anybody that was at 1B should have run to cover home, once Hamilton got to 2B. If he can't get to home before Hamilton, there's something wrong.

[OH FOY]

This again ^^^ Brain Fart. How many times a play like this happens. Nobody prepared.

[moonslav59]

This again ^^^ Brain Fart. How many times a play like this happens. Nobody prepared.

 

I don't care if anyone chooses to place any blame on JF for the lack of fundamentals, but we do clearly have a serious issue with fundamentals.

[cp176]

I don't care if anyone chooses to place any blame on JF for the lack of fundamentals, but we do clearly have a serious issue with fundamentals.

 

You are right. This particular play was a little different. I'm thinking that with a runner on first base, Vazquez needs to see what is in front of him and becomes a traffic cop. There should have been some communication between the pitcher and the catcher on this one. On the pickoff, Workman really should have been the third guy invollved in that rundown. 3 guys should be all you need. 2 throws all you need. It was poor execution by all of them but I'm still thinking that Vazquez needed to be the guy at the plate. I hope they are talking about this one today.

[OH FOY]

I also think the Catcher was the guy who should be covering a base that he always covers. Had plenty of time to get there, once play was at 2nd base. I think everyone was watching. Who got the ball off of carom? Cant remember. I Think that's important.

[OH FOY]

SOS for final week.

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/huntforoctober

[Maxbialystock]

The Hamilton play is a tough one to defend (as in how do you defend it on paper). Workman blew it, IMO, he was late getting over there. Vazquez correctly went to back up the run down at first and ended up with the ball. Bogaerts correctly got in position to back up at second. Devers was covering 3rd just in case (also correct). I'm not sure who has to try and get to the plate in that situation (Bogaerts tried but just couldn't get there).

 

Well put. The problem was execution on the rundown, which led to an errant throw by Pedey of all people. Thereafter, as you point out, guys needed to figure out where to go or be because it wasn't part of the rundown playbook.

 

Funny no one mentions that the Reds let Betts score from 2b on a infield single, with no errors committed, because they too became absorbed in getting Devers out at 1b and just kind of forgot about Betts.

 

Hamilton like Betts is fast and simply capitalized on a misplay by Pedey followed by reactions which had to go outside the usual rundown playbook.

 

The carping critics are using 20-20 hindsight.

[cp176]

Sorry Max - great play Mookie - The discussion I was involved in had something to do with what I really care about - fundamental baseball. The execution on the rundown up until the ball left Pedroia's hand was fine. If Pedroia had executed the play correctly he would have tagged Hamilton out while forcing him back to first. 3 guys in the rundown (in this case you had your ss at second just in case). Pedroia screwed it up but the plate should still have been covered.

The play Mookie scored on was a great play by Mookie coupled with a bad throw to first. hamilton has great speed but he took advantage I'm afraid of some pretty piss poor fundamental baseball. It is good to talk real bb stuff sometimes too.

[cp176]

Sorry Max - great play Mookie - The discussion I was involved in had something to do with what I really care about - fundamental baseball. The execution on the rundown up until the ball left Pedroia's hand was fine. If Pedroia had executed the play correctly he would have tagged Hamilton out while forcing him back to first. 3 guys in the rundown (in this case you had your ss at second just in case). Pedroia screwed it up but the plate should still have been covered.

The play Mookie scored on was a great play by Mookie coupled with a bad throw to first. hamilton has great speed but he took advantage I'm afraid of some pretty piss poor fundamental baseball. It is good to talk real bb stuff sometimes too.

 

I didn't really mean for my post to sound unfriendly Max. My OCD sends me on my way some times.

[a700hitter]

I am surprised there is no comment on Hamilton scoring from 1st base on a play where he should have been easily picked off. Boneheaded defense!

 

Also, the game winning run was scored due to aggressive baserunning.

It isn't boneheaded if it works. When Hamilton tries to steal second base, the defense does well to keep him from stealing 3rd on the same play.

[Maxbialystock]

I didn't really mean for my post to sound unfriendly Max. My OCD sends me on my way some times.

 

You are never unfriendly. I just like illinoisredsox's perspective and the notion that,once that throw went amuck, the normal procedure for rundowns between 1b and 2b just might have left home plate uncovered. I just don't know. Try this on for size--

 

Pedroia was running toward 1b and maybe should have been the guy covering home. He was the mostly experienced and probably the headiest player on the field. But he never made a move after the bad throw.

 

Workman was the guy trying to catch the ball and was no doubt thinking about retrieving it. He made no other move. Plus he's a pitcher and not the best guy to race home.

 

Vazquez hustled to back up 1b which it turned out was a good idea. He may have been the one who actually retrieved the ball. In the final shot he was running toward home plate, as were Bogie and Devers.

 

Moreland was somewhere near 2b. Covering home was not his responsibility I think.

 

Devers had to cover 3b, but still tried to race Hamilton home.

 

Bogie was also near 2b but he was supposed to be the guy Workman threw to if the rundown continued. But he also saw the bad throw and probably should have been the guy going home, which he did but belatedly. I would suggest that he has not had to react that way very often in his young professional career and maybe never--running from 2b to home to cover home plate.

 

Remember, when the bad throw was made, Hamilton was actually headed back to 1b, then quickly reversed.

 

All in all, I would say the worst mental mistake had to be made by Pedroia. He saw the bad throw and was in the best position to cover home plate because he could see the catcher retrieving the ball. But he didn't, maybe because it was not part of the normal routine of a rundown between 1b and 2b.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Maxbialystock

[cp176]

I think I understand what you are saying. In a perfect world, Vazquez doesn't get near that play. Workman to first following his throw. Moreland to Pedroia - Moreland follows that throw to second - Pedroia's forces Hamilton back to first - ether tags him out or should have been thrown to Workman who tags him out. Never more than 3 necessary to complete any rundown. If Vazquez went after that bad throw, one of those other knuckleheads (only said affectionately) should have had a clue and headed toward the plate. Which one? I don't care - Protocol says maybe the pitcher I guess - I would have thought though that maybe a guy with Pedroia's experience would have seen that one developing and headed toward the plate. Kind of a humorous play to develop and I'm not sure that anyone other than Pedroia gets blamed much here. I would not call that a series of mental mistakes. I would call that one an error on Pedroia and that's it. Sometimes things just happen. Farrell is off the hook on that one.

[illinoisredsox]

I think I understand what you are saying. In a perfect world, Vazquez doesn't get near that play. Workman to first following his throw. Moreland to Pedroia - Moreland follows that throw to second - Pedroia's forces Hamilton back to first - ether tags him out or should have been thrown to Workman who tags him out. Never more than 3 necessary to complete any rundown. If Vazquez went after that bad throw, one of those other knuckleheads (only said affectionately) should have had a clue and headed toward the plate. Which one? I don't care - Protocol says maybe the pitcher I guess - I would have thought though that maybe a guy with Pedroia's experience would have seen that one developing and headed toward the plate. Kind of a humorous play to develop and I'm not sure that anyone other than Pedroia gets blamed much here. I would not call that a series of mental mistakes. I would call that one an error on Pedroia and that's it. Sometimes things just happen. Farrell is off the hook on that one.

 

No, Vazquez played it by the book. He goes to back up first there because it's the right thing to do, just like he would on most infield ground balls (note I said most, there are times the catcher doesn't do that). If anyone should have headed home it would have been Pedey or Workman.

 

The play was caused by:

 

1) Workman not getting to 1st quickly enough and/or

2) Pedey missing the moving target Workman.

 

The other key to the play was the ball deflecting off of Workman's glove, caroming away from Vazquez and forcing him to go chase it. If Workman never touches it, it goes straight to Vazquez backing up 1st, and he either has a shot at getting Hamilton at 2nd or at worst, Hamilton stops at 2nd. If no one is backing up 1st, Hamilton gets to 3rd easily.

 

Just one of those weird plays that pop up every once in a while.

[S5Dewey]

FWIW, here's how I see it. Pedey isn't going to catch Hamilton to tag him (!) but he gave up too soon on trying to chase Hamilton back to 1B. Had he waited a bit longer Workman would have been in a better position to take the throw and Hamilton would have been out.

 

After the bad throw Workman was essentially out of the play so he should have known that home plate was uncovered and since he (Workman) was the only one without a base to cover he should have been heading to cover the plate.

 

I just refuse to fault anyone for this. I wouldn't even put it under the heading of "bad fundamentals". It was an unusual situation that would never even be discussed in practice. I know we like to second guess and blame, but still.....

[cp176]

No, Vazquez played it by the book. He goes to back up first there because it's the right thing to do, just like he would on most infield ground balls (note I said most, there are times the catcher doesn't do that). If anyone should have headed home it would have been Pedey or Workman.

 

The play was caused by:

 

1) Workman not getting to 1st quickly enough and/or

2) Pedey missing the moving target Workman.

 

The other key to the play was the ball deflecting off of Workman's glove, caroming away from Vazquez and forcing him to go chase it. If Workman never touches it, it goes straight to Vazquez backing up 1st, and he either has a shot at getting Hamilton at 2nd or at worst, Hamilton stops at 2nd. If no one is backing up 1st, Hamilton gets to 3rd easily.

 

Just one of those weird plays that pop up every once in a while.

 

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you about Vazquez playing that one by the book. No runners on base of course he goes down that line. Runners on base not so much. I'm not criticizing him for going after a bad throw but backing up first base on a groundball with runners on the base paths is not a fundamental part of his job. He might head that way with a runner on first but he has to know where everybody is on that fielld. That play is entirely in front of him.

[cp176]

I do agree that it was a weird play for sure!

[cp176]

FWIW, here's how I see it. Pedey isn't going to catch Hamilton to tag him (!) but he gave up too soon on trying to chase Hamilton back to 1B. Had he waited a bit longer Workman would have been in a better position to take the throw and Hamilton would have been out.

 

After the bad throw Workman was essentially out of the play so he should have known that home plate was uncovered and since he (Workman) was the only one without a base to cover he should have been heading to cover the plate.

 

I just refuse to fault anyone for this. I wouldn't even put it under the heading of "bad fundamentals". It was an unusual situation that would never even be discussed in practice. I know we like to second guess and blame, but still.....

 

I think that your opinion is worth a lot when it comes to talking baseball as opposed to probability. I like these types of discussions. They are about the actual game as opposed to what the statistical data says the optimal batting order should be. It is a good old baseball discussion.