Lin

[cp176]

You found a second in me. In my case, pot was not around when I grew up.

 

It wasn't illegal.

[Bellhorn04]

Lin, Rutledge, and Marrero are not third baseman and never will be. Sandoval just isn't anymore. Getting 0 from them of late puts pressure on DD that none of us want to see. We all know what that means. He is trying not to trade for one, but I would not be surprised if it happens just out of necessity.

As for players who are "supposed" to be hitting - I don't buy it but I don't like to assume things. I expect a little more from Betts I guess but Hanley is Hanley folks. He was fine with Ortiz in the lineup and dugout but without him there, people need to temper their expectations for him. As this team was constructed, i think that we are getting about what we can expect. We all knew that it was going to boil down to the pitching staff remaining healthy which it hasn't. In hindsight, it would look like a mistake was made in not trying to replace Ortiz's bat. Moreland has been better than I thought he would be but outside of Betts the rest of this order doesn't surprise me at all. Counting on Sandoval coming back strong really looks like the big mistake here.

 

And counting on Sandoval meant trading Shaw, whose OPS of .889 would be the highest on our team.

[Dojji]

...[bogey is] motivated to be the best SS he can...

 

I am not supporting the idea of moving Bogey to 3B this year, but I haven't seen his "motivation" helping improve his defense at SS over the last 2-3 years.

 

Considering that a lot of scouts said that XB was too big and too thick bodied to stick at SS, being able to play at replacement level or better defensively for multiple seasons is a sign of some pretty hard work. I'm sorry that not being an elite defender makes you think he isn't working, but that's a ridiculous sentiment when applied to anyone. Hard work should be measured compared to a player's own personal limits, not some arbitrary statisticall standard, and by that analysis it's clear that XB is working pretty darn hard. He's maintaining himself at a position not everyone thought he could play, and he's defending at a consistently acceptable level. That's enough for me.

[Dojji]

And counting on Sandoval meant trading Shaw, whose OPS of .889 would be the highest on our team.

 

I hate everything about that trade. I wasn't thrilled about it even before it blew up in our faces just as badly as possible. What the hell was DD thinking assuming Shaw was expendable when the only guy behind him was the worst 3B in major sports in 15 and DNP in 16.

[cp176]

And counting on Sandoval meant trading Shaw, whose OPS of .889 would be the highest on our team.

 

I have and will continue to be a Shaw fan. I would say though that trading him was not an unpopular move for the clear majority of posters here as I recall. If my memory is still working, what I remember mostly is the criticism of him as his stats seemed to dip as the season wore on. Was not a problem for me.

[S5Dewey]

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers?

I got mine from Baseball Reference.

 

This is one of the problems I have with WAR. It's called the same thing on both sites but it's calculated differently giving different results. Which one is credible? Either? Neither? And yet it's become the standard for determining a player's worth.

 

Maybe it's as AJP said on the broadcast the other night, there are so many statistics out there now that if a person wants to find one to make a player look bad it's there, and if you want to find one to make that player look good, that one is there too.

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe it's as AJP said on the broadcast the other night, there are so many statistics out there now that if a person wants to find one to make a player look bad it's there, and if you want to find one to make that player look good, that one is there too.

 

I don't really buy that...you certainly can't find one that makes Trout look bad or Sandoval look good, for example.

[S5Dewey]

I don't really buy that...you certainly can't find one that makes Trout look bad or Sandoval look good, for example.

 

Mike Trout has only played in 47 games this year due to a torn ligament in his thumb. Is this the beginning of his being injury-prone?

 

Pablo Sandoval was a two-time All - Star while in San Franscisco. During those years with the Giants he posted an an average OPS of >.800 and played on two World Series Championship teams.

 

Now, I don't agree that either of those statements tell the whole story, but they prove that if a person wants to "prove" something the data can be spun to prove it.

[Kimmi]

You are not. I am a practicing Mormon and have never touched the stuff.

 

You found a second in me. In my case, pot was not around when I grew up.

 

High on Lifers unite!

[Kimmi]

Not any more than rewarding your top workers in the office with the assignments they want. It's not blackmail, it's motivation. Bogaerts knows that the job is his to lose as long as he doesn't suck as a SS, so he's motivated to be the best SS he can. And the best shortstop Xander Bogaerts can be is a pretty damn good shortstop, at least borderline elite if not outright elite when you combine offense and defense

 

Bogaerts is an asset right now, not a problem. There is no need to make any moves that risk him becoming a problem. He's adequate defensively and killing it with the bat and his talent and production levels are super tough to replace at his position. He's the quintessential happy, productive worker. You can keep it that way by letting him keep a job he's frankly pretty productive at and committed to being the best he can be at, or you can make moves for their own sake just to have done something and risk all that exploding in your face.

 

Creating problems and upsetting the apple cart just for the sake of "marking your territory" and making moves for their own sake simply to conform to rigid convention (but Third Base Is A Power Hitter Job! We need a power hitter! I know, we'll steal that one from a position he stands out far more in, and turn an elite shortstop into a merely above average 3B just to satisfy my sense of how the universe should be!) is a stupid way to manage a big company.

 

Good posts on the topic Dojji. I agree.

[Kimmi]

And counting on Sandoval meant trading Shaw, whose OPS of .889 would be the highest on our team.

 

Counting on Sandoval with no decent backup plan was a huge mistake, I agree. I had no issues with trading Shaw, however. The deal looks very bad right now, but Shaw was horrible for most of the season last year.

 

In Dombrowski's defense in counting on Pablo,

 

1. I don't think it was unrealistic to think that Pablo could improve upon the numbers put up by last year's 3B, which were last in baseball. That's how bad Shaw was last year.

2. I don't think anyone could expect both Holt and Marco to be out for most of the season.

[Kimmi]

I got mine from Baseball Reference.

 

This is one of the problems I have with WAR. It's called the same thing on both sites but it's calculated differently giving different results. Which one is credible? Either? Neither? And yet it's become the standard for determining a player's worth.

 

Maybe it's as AJP said on the broadcast the other night, there are so many statistics out there now that if a person wants to find one to make a player look bad it's there, and if you want to find one to make that player look good, that one is there too.

 

From Baseball Reference:

 

Xander's dWAR for this year is -.2 and from 2014 it's -.9.

 

Marrero's dWAR this year is +.3.

[mvp 78]

This is still the tail wagging the dog, and akin to blackmail.

 

^ Spoken like someone who has never had to manage any employees ever.

[mvp 78]

Considering that a lot of scouts said that XB was too big and too thick bodied to stick at SS, being able to play at replacement level or better defensively for multiple seasons is a sign of some pretty hard work. I'm sorry that not being an elite defender makes you think he isn't working, but that's a ridiculous sentiment when applied to anyone. Hard work should be measured compared to a player's own personal limits, not some arbitrary statisticall standard, and by that analysis it's clear that XB is working pretty darn hard. He's maintaining himself at a position not everyone thought he could play, and he's defending at a consistently acceptable level. That's enough for me.

 

Basically this.

[Kimmi]

I got mine from Baseball Reference.

 

This is one of the problems I have with WAR. It's called the same thing on both sites but it's calculated differently giving different results. Which one is credible? Either? Neither? And yet it's become the standard for determining a player's worth.

 

Maybe it's as AJP said on the broadcast the other night, there are so many statistics out there now that if a person wants to find one to make a player look bad it's there, and if you want to find one to make that player look good, that one is there too.

 

In terms of the WAR values being calculated differently, it doesn't mean that they are wrong, bad, or useless. They are both credible, and as always, the more you look at the better off you are. Understanding a little about how each is calculated, and I'm not saying that you don't, helps understand where the differences might be.

 

It's no different than looking at two scout rankings. One scout might rank a prospect at #3, while another scout ranks him at #7. Does that make both scouts wrong? Does that mean that neither scout is credible? Most importantly, does that mean that the information provided by the scouts is useless?

[Emp9]

I really don't think anyone proposed moving XB to 3B for Lin. Under discussion is whether we look for a SS instead of a 3B going forward.

 

I hear Asdrubal Cabrera might be available if thats the case

[Dojji]

Counting on Sandoval with no decent backup plan was a huge mistake, I agree. I had no issues with trading Shaw, however. The deal looks very bad right now, but Shaw was horrible for most of the season last year.

 

In Dombrowski's defense in counting on Pablo,

 

1. I don't think it was unrealistic to think that Pablo could improve upon the numbers put up by last year's 3B, which were last in baseball. That's how bad Shaw was last year.

2. I don't think anyone could expect both Holt and Marco to be out for most of the season.

 

"horrible" is a relative statement. 2016 Shaw would have been light years ahead of anyone we have at the position now.

[S5Dewey]

As I've said, I'm not lobbying for Lin to be our SS. I just think that we're hamstringing ourselves when we decide to eliminate a possibility that might make the team better in the name of keeping one player comfortable. Players change positions. Benintendi was a CF'er. Mookie was a 2B-man.

 

My problem is with any player who 'pulls a Derek Jeter' and essentially refuses to move off his position even though it could make the team better. - and gets away with it! Tail wagging dog.

[moonslav59]

Considering that a lot of scouts said that XB was too big and too thick bodied to stick at SS, being able to play at replacement level or better defensively for multiple seasons is a sign of some pretty hard work. I'm sorry that not being an elite defender makes you think he isn't working, but that's a ridiculous sentiment when applied to anyone. Hard work should be measured compared to a player's own personal limits, not some arbitrary statisticall standard, and by that analysis it's clear that XB is working pretty darn hard. He's maintaining himself at a position not everyone thought he could play, and he's defending at a consistently acceptable level. That's enough for me.

 

I never said Bogey is "not working" at SS. I was just talking about his defense not improving at all over his ML career. You'd think his dislike for playing 3B and his hard work ethic would have meant we'd see some growth on defense. One could argue there has even been slight regression on defense.

 

Bogey's offense makes him a clear and significant plus at SS. His defense is not bad, and even though I have a very strong philosophy of having great defense at the SS position, I am not for moving Bogey to 3B for someone like Marrero or LIn. To me, his defense is "acceptable", but barely so.I'm not calling for DD to try and trade for a SS, so Bogey can be moved to 3B. Not at all. I see Devers as our future 3Bman and Bogey staying at SS for a long time, but if we ever do get a great fielding SS that can hit, I'd consider the move. (Note: I used the word "consider" not certainly would move him, too.)

[moonslav59]

I have and will continue to be a Shaw fan. I would say though that trading him was not an unpopular move for the clear majority of posters here as I recall. If my memory is still working, what I remember mostly is the criticism of him as his stats seemed to dip as the season wore on. Was not a problem for me.

 

He lost the starting job at the end of last year due to an almost unbelievably long slump. That wasn't a problem?

[Dojji]

There are plenty of acceptable options at 3B without getting exotic.

 

We don't need an all star and don't really have the assets to obtain one. What we need is adequacy at the third base position. An all star would be great but all we need 3B to be is something other than a sucking chest wound.

 

Going back to an offseason idea of Moonslav's, picking up Todd Frazier from a White Sox club going nowhere would be a solid idea, I doubt he'd be too expensive considering he's on the last year of his deal on a losing team and the White Sox are considering a transition to Yoan Moncada at his position, and we've proven we can make fair deals with the White Sox. That looks like a deal that ought to be doable for a reasonable price in assets. Heck maybe the White Sox think they can save Blake Swihart.

 

Adrian Beltre is also a solid choice if the Rangers will spare him, he's made a strong return to their lineup after his injury and I think it's fair to say he's likely healthy, and he's been highly productive in Boston before. The Rangers are 1 game over .500 and not too far off wild card pace and they may consider themselves in contention, so that may not be an option at the deadline, but if they take a dive in the standings between now and 7/31 that becomes an option.

 

Basically there's a couple things we can potentially do to increase our left side of the infield offense without screwing over an elite SS. If they fail then maybe it's time to go exocit, but the best roster moves are the ones that are least disruptive to the team, adding the most while subtracting the least, and if a veteran 3B is available, getting a SS instead fails that test.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Dojji

[Dojji]

I never said Bogey is "not working" at SS. I was just talking about his defense not improving at all over his ML career. You'd think his dislike for playing 3B and his hard work ethic would have meant we'd see some growth on defense. One could argue there has even been slight regression on defense.

 

You're ignoring the problem of maintenance. Staying at an acceptable level defensively takes a certain work ethic when you're not naturally built for the position.

 

Bogey's offense makes him a clear and significant plus at SS. His defense is not bad, and even though I have a very strong philosophy of having great defense at the SS position, I am not for moving Bogey to 3B for someone like Marrero or LIn. To me, his defense is "acceptable", but barely so.I'm not calling for DD to try and trade for a SS, so Bogey can be moved to 3B. Not at all. I see Devers as our future 3Bman and Bogey staying at SS for a long time, but if we ever do get a great fielding SS that can hit, I'd consider the move. (Note: I used the word "consider" not certainly would move him, too.)

 

That's fair.

[moonslav59]

"horrible" is a relative statement. 2016 Shaw would have been light years ahead of anyone we have at the position now.

 

The point was that he was horrible for most of the season. The word "most" might be debatable, but in my opinion, the word "horrible" was an accurate description of Shaw's play at the end of the season last year.

 

His defense was surprisingly decent last year at 3B, but I'm not sure one could expect that to continue. By the way, his UZR/150 this year is at -9.3 (third worst in MLB). He really is much better at 1B.

 

Here are his numbers:

 

2nd half: 59 games/193 PAs

.194 7 23 (.619 OPS)

 

Our 2017 3B numbers right now: 75 gams/286 PAs

.198 7 29 (.568 OPS)

 

Yes, Shaw looked slightly better over this year's clown carousel, but not by much.

 

(Note: 59 games is not "most of the season".)

 

Now, if you tighten up the sample size to just August and September, Shaw was no better than this year's 3Bmen:

 

AUG: .542 OPS

SEP: .602 OPS

 

That was 150 PAs of .570 batting (.184 4 16).

 

It's hard not to call that HORRIBLE!

 

 

Edited June 26, 2017 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

You're ignoring the problem of maintenance. Staying at an acceptable level defensively takes a certain work ethic when you're not naturally built for the position.

 

I think the scouts and I were wrong about Bogey not "being built to play SS." He has not "filled out". His current body type should not be a factor in improving his defense at SS.

[moonslav59]

There are plenty of acceptable options at 3B without getting exotic.

 

We don't need an all star and don't really have the assets to obtain one. What we need is adequacy at the third base position. An all star would be great but all we need 3B to be is something other than a sucking chest wound.

 

Going back to an offseason idea of Moonslav's, picking up Todd Frazier from a White Sox club going nowhere would be a solid idea, I doubt he'd be too expensive considering he's on the last year of his deal on a losing team and the White Sox are considering a transition to Yoan Moncada at his position, and we've proven we can make fair deals with the White Sox. That looks like a deal that ought to be doable for a reasonable price in assets. Heck maybe the White Sox think they can save Blake Swihart.

 

I'm not longer a supporter of trading for Frazier. He's having a bad year, and he's historically a much worse second half hitter. His defense is still solid. He's probably better than what we have, assuming Devers is targeted for 2018, so if we could get him for cheap, which is doubtful, I might consider him.

 

Adrian Beltre is also a solid choice if the Rangers will spare him, he's made a strong return to their lineup after his injury and I think it's fair to say he's likely healthy, and he's been highly productive in Boston before. The Rangers are 1 game over .500 and not too far off wild card pace and they may consider themselves in contention, so that may not be an option at the deadline, but if they take a dive in the standings between now and 7/31 that becomes an option.

 

Will be way too costly.

 

Basically there's a couple things we can potentially do to increase our left side of the infield offense without screwing over an elite SS. If they fail then maybe it's time to go exocit, but the best roster moves are the ones that are least disruptive to the team, adding the most while subtracting the least, and if a veteran 3B is available, getting a SS instead fails that test.

 

I'm not advoacting moving Bogey to 3B, like I was when we had Iggy, but a chance at greatly improving SS defense is nothing to ignore either.

[S5Dewey]

..and since I didn't bring that guy's name up....

 

I see no doubt that this team would be better than it is with Bogy and Iggy on the left side, regardless of which position they're at. And cheaper, too.

[mvp 78]

And if the Sox really want to move Xander to 3B, it will be done during an offseason, not in June/July.

[moonslav59]

And if the Sox really want to move Xander to 3B, it will be done during an offseason, not in June/July.

 

I totally agree. It's not happening this year. It's extremely unlike over this winter as well.

[mvp 78]

..and since I didn't bring that guy's name up....

 

I see no doubt that this team would be better than it is with Bogy and Iggy on the left side, regardless of which position they're at. And cheaper, too.

 

 

[mvp 78]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=21,d

 

Iggy's bat is so bad that it's laughable that anyone would want him back. He's no Ozzie Smith.