Lin

[moonslav59]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=21,d

 

Iggy's bat is so bad that it's laughable that anyone would want him back. He's no Ozzie Smith.

 

No, but he's number one in SS defense this year according to fangraphs while Bogey is 18th out of 25. His .620 OPS this year is not very good, but it's over 60 points better than our .558 3B OPS this year.

 

No joke!

[mvp 78]

No, but he's number one in SS defense this year according to fangraphs while Bogey is 18th out of 25. His .620 OPS this year is not very good, but it's over 60 points better than our .558 3B OPS this year.

 

No joke!

 

And even though his defense is sooo good, he's still ranked 17th in WAR for SS. His noodle bat isn't worth missing.

[Dojji]

There is greater than zero logic in shifting bogaerts over and playing someone else in shortstop. If nothing els a place holder shortstop is easier to acquire. It depends on what you can acquire and whether you think Devers is ready.

 

That said moving bogaerts over increases the number of things that can go wrong, and lest we forget XB had his own second half slump last year so screwing with his comfort zone is playing with fire.

[mvp 78]

And moving Xander to 3B will ruin the left side of infield since he is an absolutely lousy 3B.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=12161&position=SS#fieldingadvanced

 

If you think he's bad at SS, just look at the 3B numbers.

[cp176]

He lost the starting job at the end of last year due to an almost unbelievably long slump. That wasn't a problem?

 

I'm seeing words like unbelievable and horrible just thrown around here. Those are all very relative terms. I liked Shaw through it all last year. A big (as in good sized third baseman) with power. Giving up on him is kind of like the way people tend to give up yearly on JBJ. Pomeranz was another bum too I guess until just recently. Horrible and unbelievable are the types of third baseman that have been yarded out to that position since the trade of Shaw. Fatso and the midget brigade. Eventually DD will get it right. They gave up too early on Shaw it kind of looks like.

[Emp9]

And even though his defense is sooo good, he's still ranked 17th in WAR for SS. His noodle bat isn't worth missing.

 

Yeah, but his defense still makes it tempting to me. Up the middle defense from JBJ, to Iggy, (w/ Pedroia if positioned correctly to slightly favor his weak-side), all the way to Vaz/Leon... tempting.

[moonslav59]

I'm seeing words like unbelievable and horrible just thrown around here. Those are all very relative terms. I liked Shaw through it all last year. A big (as in good sized third baseman) with power. Giving up on him is kind of like the way people tend to give up yearly on JBJ. Pomeranz was another bum too I guess until just recently. Horrible and unbelievable are the types of third baseman that have been yarded out to that position since the trade of Shaw. Fatso and the midget brigade. Eventually DD will get it right. They gave up too early on Shaw it kind of looks like.

 

Shaw was my "sleeper prospect" many years ago, but I guess I never really saw him as an answer to 3B. I saw him as a plus fielding 1Bman who might never hit well enough to play 1B FT.

 

I liked the trade, more out of my perception that our pen was our weakest (no weak) link. We had lost Uehara, Ziegler and Taz, and there was no way to know that Kelly's one good month to end the 2016 season was going to continue. Also, I don't think anyone expected Kimbrel to pitch like he did with the Braves. Barnes and Hembree and others have all done better.

 

In hindsight, the trade looks "unbelievably horrible" right now, but let's wait and see how Shaw finishes out the season. The Thornburg injury was not really foreseeable, but when judging by hindsight, GMs often look bad.

[moonslav59]

Yeah, but his defense still makes it tempting to me. Up the middle defense from JBJ, to Iggy, (w/ Pedroia if positioned correctly to slightly favor his weak-side), all the way to Vaz/Leon... tempting.

 

When looking at Iggy, the comp should not be Iggy vs Bogey or other SSs, it should be about Iggy vs our current 3B situation.

 

Clearly, Iggy at SS and Bogey at 3B is better than Bogey SS and Marrero/Lin 3B. We gain on offense (60+ points in OPS) and the improvement in SS defense, IMO would outweigh the drop in 3B defense due mainly to the sheer volume of plays at SS vs 3B, and Iggy's range is tremendous, which would allow Bogey to play a half step closer to the 3b bag.

[mvp 78]

Yeah, but his defense still makes it tempting to me. Up the middle defense from JBJ, to Iggy, (w/ Pedroia if positioned correctly to slightly favor his weak-side), all the way to Vaz/Leon... tempting.

 

And Xander DH's?

[mvp 78]

When looking at Iggy, the comp should not be Iggy vs Bogey or other SSs, it should be about Iggy vs our current 3B situation.

 

Clearly, Iggy at SS and Bogey at 3B is better than Bogey SS and Marrero/Lin 3B. We gain on offense (60+ points in OPS) and the improvement in SS defense, IMO would outweigh the drop in 3B defense due mainly to the sheer volume of plays at SS vs 3B, and Iggy's range is tremendous, which would allow Bogey to play a half step closer to the 3b bag.

 

Not when considering Bogey's defensive history at 3B.

[moonslav59]

Not when considering Bogey's defensive history at 3B.

 

His history is bad, but he was only given 10 games at 3B before the call-up. He only ended up with just over 400 innings at 3B from 2013-2014, so it's kind of hard to judge.

 

Your point is well taken. Going from 18th out of 20 at SS to #1 might not outweigh the loss we get on defense at 3B by too much. My hope would be that Bogey could improve more at 3B than he has shown at SS, but that could be a baseless hope, and if it ticks off Bogey, the scales tip the other way.

 

Again, I am not for trading for Iggy or moving Bogey to 3B this year.

 

I will say, I'd rather have Iggy at 3B than Lin/Marrero, but I wouldn't trade much to get him as a 3Bman.

Edited June 26, 2017 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Note: Bogey ranked 49th out of 49 3Bmen from 2013-2014 in 3B UZR/150 at -31.8.

 

That's Pabloesque!

 

Pablo ranks 52nd out of 52 in UZR/150 from 2015-2017 (-21.8).

 

The lack of much 3B practice might account for some of Bogey's shortcomings at 3B but not all of it.

[mvp 78]

Note: Bogey ranked 49th out of 49 3Bmen from 2013-2014 in 3B UZR/150 at -31.8.

 

That's Pabloesque!

 

Pablo ranks 52nd out of 52 in UZR/150 from 2015-2017 (-21.8).

 

The lack of much 3B practice might account for some of Bogey's shortcomings at 3B but not all of it.

 

Nope. IT WAS JUST THE TAIL WAGGING THE DOG.

[Emp9]

And Xander DH's?

 

No, XB to 3B. Look, if we were hitting enough, I'd make that move in a heartbeat, but we not. Sox have had better offensive 2nd half numbers than 1st half #'s of recent years, but this year unfortunately, may prove different. We're all scrambling to try and fix 3B and the hitting woes, under very limited resources. We've all been in 'Spitball-mode for awhile now.

 

If Smith comes back fine, I think we should shop Kelly (plus see if there's a taker for Abad- he may be fine out of the AL East or in the NL), and maybe a far away prospect, plus taking on 1/3 of said target 3B's salary might... just might be enough to solve 3B (defense & offense, in one move, w/ out going over the LT Limit).

[moonslav59]

No, XB to 3B. Look, if we were hitting enough, I'd make that move in a heartbeat, but we not. Sox have had better offensive 2nd half numbers than 1st half #'s of recent years, but this year unfortunately, may prove different. We're all scrambling to try and fix 3B and the hitting woes, under very limited resources. We've all been in 'Spitball-mode for awhile now.

 

If Smith comes back fine, I think we should shop Kelly (plus see if there's a taker for Abad- he may be fine out of the AL East or in the NL), and maybe a far away prospect, plus taking on 1/3 of said target 3B's salary might... just might be enough to solve 3B (defense & offense, in one move, w/ out going over the LT Limit).

 

I would not trade Kelly. I'd say he's our back-up closer. We don't know how well Smith will pitch when he returns.

 

(Note: He hasn't even touched a ball in 10 days. He may not return this year.)

 

If we trade anyone, it will be prospects for a proven 3Bman or SP'er. Kelly would be someone you trade to a contender.

[Emp9]

I would not trade Kelly. I'd say he's our back-up closer. We don't know how well Smith will pitch when he returns.

 

(Note: He hasn't even touched a ball in 10 days. He may not return this year.)

 

If we trade anyone, it will be prospects for a proven 3Bman or SP'er. Kelly would be someone you trade to a contender.

 

I said IF Smith looks good. And if a team is looking to contend next season and isn't planning a fire-sale this season, Kelly would be a nice pck-up. Not all teams look to sell off everone and start from scratch. Kelly would be the only piece worth close to what we'd need to get a decent 3Bman that I can think of at the moment. Besides prospects that is.

[Slasher9]

As I've said, I'm not lobbying for Lin to be our SS. I just think that we're hamstringing ourselves when we decide to eliminate a possibility that might make the team better in the name of keeping one player comfortable. Players change positions. Benintendi was a CF'er. Mookie was a 2B-man.

 

My problem is with any player who 'pulls a Derek Jeter' and essentially refuses to move off his position even though it could make the team better. - and gets away with it! Tail wagging dog.

 

i definitely feel your frustration with 3b and never frown on out of the box thinking. in this particular case, i dont think that X-Bo has the power numbers that i would like to see from a corner position. i do think his arm is good enough for 3b and i dont think it's fair for people to use his 3b defense from 3 years ago as stats as he has gotten way better at defense since that time. also, at this moment i just dont see the SS replacement to initiate the move of Xander to 3b...especially with Devers in the wings. apparently DD will try 101 things at 3b prior to bringing Rafi up, but i dont believe one of them will be moving X-bo to 3b.

[moonslav59]

I said IF Smith looks good. And if a team is looking to contend next season and isn't planning a fire-sale this season, Kelly would be a nice pck-up. Not all teams look to sell off everone and start from scratch. Kelly would be the only piece worth close to what we'd need to get a decent 3Bman that I can think of at the moment. Besides prospects that is.

 

I didn't mean to imply you were assuming Smith will be back. I just think our pen will need Kelly next year. Smith and Thornburg are question marks- even after they get healthy.

[Emp9]

I didn't mean to imply you were assuming Smith will be back. I just think our pen will need Kelly next year. Smith and Thornburg are question marks- even after they get healthy.

 

It's just too bad there are a lot more IF's on this team than I'd thought there'd be. I think we should expect to hear more about Smith sometime today actually. I hope it's good news.

[notin]

i definitely feel your frustration with 3b and never frown on out of the box thinking. in this particular case, i dont think that X-Bo has the power numbers that i would like to see from a corner position. i do think his arm is good enough for 3b and i dont think it's fair for people to use his 3b defense from 3 years ago as stats as he has gotten way better at defense since that time. also, at this moment i just dont see the SS replacement to initiate the move of Xander to 3b...especially with Devers in the wings. apparently DD will try 101 things at 3b prior to bringing Rafi up, but i dont believe one of them will be moving X-bo to 3b.

 

I know we all grew up learning otherwise, but defensive positions are actually best determined by defensive skills, not offensive ones...

[notin]

Mike Trout has only played in 47 games this year due to a torn ligament in his thumb. Is this the beginning of his being injury-prone?

.

 

That's not a statistic; that's supposition...

[notin]

I have and will continue to be a Shaw fan. I would say though that trading him was not an unpopular move for the clear majority of posters here as I recall. If my memory is still working, what I remember mostly is the criticism of him as his stats seemed to dip as the season wore on. Was not a problem for me.

 

I was never a Shaw fan, but Sandoval made me one...

[cp176]

I know we all grew up learning otherwise, but defensive positions are actually best determined by defensive skills, not offensive ones...

 

You are right Notin to a point. It is important to have some power on your team somewhere i think. You can get away with it for sure at first and third.We have been putting small 2nd baseman in this position. It is a stopgap thing to do. Also, doesn't look like it is working. Good hands and good footwork along with a powerful arm are things that good third basemen need to have. great range - not really - good reaction time yes for sure. On a team with liimited hitting and power, putting typically second basemen and shortstops at third might not be the way to go.

[cp176]

I was never a Shaw fan, but Sandoval made me one...

 

 

i was a Shaw fan from the beginning

[notin]

You are right Notin to a point. It is important to have some power on your team somewhere i think. You can get away with it for sure at first and third.We have been putting small 2nd baseman in this position. It is a stopgap thing to do. Also, doesn't look like it is working. Good hands and good footwork along with a powerful arm are things that good third basemen need to have. great range - not really - good reaction time yes for sure. On a team with liimited hitting and power, putting typically second basemen and shortstops at third might not be the way to go.

 

Ah but there is a big difference between "we need offense" and "Player X doesn't hit enough to play third base."

[cp176]

Ah but there is a big difference between "we need offense" and "Player X doesn't hit enough to play third base."

 

Ok - I didn't say it and I really don't scour the postings normally to learn who said what. I do think that it is safe to say that none of the people who have played third for us this year really hit well enough to play third for us though. I probably would have said something like Marrero, Rutledge, and Sandoval don't hit well enough to really play anywhere for us. traditionally thinking here though, I'm still ok with looking for a little power from the guys who play both third and first. I think that I know where you are coming from though and if you have a team that has legit run producers I don't think that it makes much difference where they play. We just don't have legit run producers in the lineup and third base for boston has a big vacancy sign on it. It would be nice if whoever ultimately fills the position for us could hit ml pitching.

[S5Dewey]

That's not a statistic; that's supposition...

 

I took you off Ignore so I could read nit-picking crap like this???

 

It wasn't put out as a statistic or a supposition. It was a question formulated to support AJP's contention that anyone can find something bad to say about someone if they choose to put the right spin on a fact.

Edited June 27, 2017 by S5Dewey

[notin]

Ok - I didn't say it and I really don't scour the postings normally to learn who said what. I do think that it is safe to say that none of the people who have played third for us this year really hit well enough to play third for us though. I probably would have said something like Marrero, Rutledge, and Sandoval don't hit well enough to really play anywhere for us. traditionally thinking here though, I'm still ok with looking for a little power from the guys who play both third and first. I think that I know where you are coming from though and if you have a team that has legit run producers I don't think that it makes much difference where they play. We just don't have legit run producers in the lineup and third base for boston has a big vacancy sign on it. It would be nice if whoever ultimately fills the position for us could hit ml pitching.

 

Third base has sucked for the Sox since Mike Lowell retired.

 

My point is I always see things like "Bogaerts doesn't hit enough to play thIrd" or "Swihart dOesn't hit enough for a left fIelder" and that's a pretty weak way to pick a position. Base position on defensive ability, and offense just needs to surpass defense....

[notin]

I took you off Ignore so I could read nit-picking crap like this???

 

It wasn't put out as a statistic or a supposition. It was a question formulated to support AJP's contention that anyone can find something bad to say about someone if they choose to put the right spin on a fact.

 

 

It wasn't a good example of the point AND was making. But Bellhorn's point about not being able to find bad stats about Trout was spot on. I guess you did inadvertently prove that...

[moonslav59]

Third base has sucked for the Sox since Mike Lowell retired.

 

You forgot Beltre and Youk.

 

Our last good year at 3B was Youk in 2011 (+3.5 WAR).

.833 OPS and -3.8 UZR/150 (his best fielding year at 3B from 2009-2013)

 

Beltre's 2010 season has been the best since 2003.

 

Best WAR seasons by a Sox 3Bman since 2003:

 

6.4 Beltre 2010 (.918 OPS)

5.9 Youk 2009 (.961 OPS but played more 1B than 3B)

4.7 Mueller 2003

4.5 Lowell 2007

3.5 Mueller 2005

3.5 Youk 2011

2.5 Lowell 2006

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by moonslav59