Farrell

[Spudboy]

Not even to a small extent on 1,3 & 4?

 

No. They are easy talking points for talk radio and little else.

 

Whereas a team that plays sloppy baseball can be a reflection of poor coaching and management.

[Bellhorn04]

The big reason that we will see Farrell in our dugout next year is that owners just don't fire managers the same year that the team has won a division crown. He has won two division crowns in a row. I can't remember the last time that a manager got fired after winning 2 Division titles in a row.

 

Don Mattingly didn't officially get fired by the Dodgers, but they 'mutually agreed to part ways' after winning 3 Division titles in a row.

[a700hitter]

Don Mattingly didn't officially get fired by the Dodgers, but they 'mutually agreed to part ways' after winning 3 Division titles in a row.

i had forgotten about Mattingly. His teams had some very uneven seasons. I am glad that there is precedent. I will not be sad to see him go.

[Spudboy]

i had forgotten about Mattingly. His teams had some very uneven seasons. I am glad that there is precedent. I will not be sad to see him go.

 

Well if Farrel were to be fired who replaces him?

 

I still like Eric Wedge but that's just my personal bias since I knew him and I saw how well he worked with young players.

 

As I see it this team has far more pressing needs than just an average manager being replaced.

[cp176]

Well if Farrel were to be fired who replaces him?

 

I still like Eric Wedge but that's just my personal bias since I knew him and I saw how well he worked with young players.

 

As I see it this team has far more pressing needs than just an average manager being replaced.

 

I agree with you and louvollo (or whoever) is Farrell junior!

[moonslav59]

Well if Farrel were to be fired who replaces him?

 

I still like Eric Wedge but that's just my personal bias since I knew him and I saw how well he worked with young players.

 

As I see it this team has far more pressing needs than just an average manager being replaced.

 

Certainly replacing JF is not our most pressing need.

[Spudboy]

Certainly replacing JF is not our most pressing need.

 

Then why bother doing it?

 

As Bill Parcells said "If they want you to win then at least they should let you do the shopping" or something close to that.

 

The Sox need to do some shopping for some new meat.

[devildavid]

My opinion is that there are 4:

 

1) We have spent like maniacs and come up short too many times.

2) Lack of fundamentals and excessive mental blunders.

3) An apparent (to me) ho-hum attitude.

4) A significant massive decline by our top 8 returning everyday players and our 2016 Cy Young winner all at once.

 

#4 has been used to fire many a manager in the past.

 

You never presented evidence for #2. I know we already went through this before. If there were massive amounts of boneheaded plays it doesn't mean it reflects only on management. It also means it should be easy to list at least 10 examples of this since the amount was massive. Without pinpointing what type of boneheaded plays there were and which players committed them it is impossible to say if was just a few bad apples or a team wide problem.

[Spudboy]

Nonsense.

 

162 games is a lot of baseball to remember exactly when and who made what play.

 

That's a dumb thing to say.

[jad]

Mental blunders, a (undocumentable) ho-hum attitude, decline by top 8? -- they won the division with such supposed flaws, and these had nothing to do with the two playoff losses. The problem was starting pitching. SInce RS got two of the top pitchers available in the past couple of seasons (Price and Sale), have a Cy Young winner in Porcello, a serviceable 4 (Pomeranz),it's difficult to see exactly what is so obviously "wrong" with the team.

[Bellhorn04]

Mental blunders, a (undocumentable) ho-hum attitude, decline by top 8? -- they won the division with such supposed flaws, and these had nothing to do with the two playoff losses. The problem was starting pitching. SInce RS got two of the top pitchers available in the past couple of seasons (Price and Sale), have a Cy Young winner in Porcello, a serviceable 4 (Pomeranz),it's difficult to see exactly what is so obviously "wrong" with the team.

 

Maybe overshadowed by the lousy starting pitching, but the hitting was awful in the 2 playoff losses as well.

[Kimmi]

Mental blunders, a (undocumentable) ho-hum attitude, decline by top 8? -- they won the division with such supposed flaws, and these had nothing to do with the two playoff losses. The problem was starting pitching. SInce RS got two of the top pitchers available in the past couple of seasons (Price and Sale), have a Cy Young winner in Porcello, a serviceable 4 (Pomeranz),it's difficult to see exactly what is so obviously "wrong" with the team.

 

Well said.

[Bellhorn04]

Well said.

 

But what about our hitting in the first 2 games of this series - should we really be dismissing that as a non-problem?

 

Our slash line in the first 2 games is 227/278/288 = 566 OPS

Edited October 8, 2017 by Bellhorn04

[Kimmi]

But what about our hitting in the first 2 games of this series - should we really be dismissing that as a non-problem?

 

Our slash line in the first 2 games is 227/278/288 = 566 OPS

 

Fair enough, to an extent. IMO, the bigger issue was the starting pitching, because this team was built to win based on pitching, not offense.

[devildavid]

Nonsense.

 

162 games is a lot of baseball to remember exactly when and who made what play.

 

That's a dumb thing to say.

 

I'm only asking for a handful of examples. I'd be more dumb to believe claims for which no solid evidence has been presented.

[devildavid]

But what about our hitting in the first 2 games of this series - should we really be dismissing that as a non-problem?

 

Our slash line in the first 2 games is 227/278/288 = 566 OPS

 

Put it down to boneheaded hitting.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm only asking for a handful of examples. I'd be more dumb to believe claims for which no solid evidence has been presented.

 

Evidence for dumb baserunning? Well, we led the majors in Outs on the Bases with 81. Next highest was 70. MLB average was 53. Some of the OOB can certainly be chalked up to aggressiveness. But if you watched the games there were clearly an unusual number of WTF moments where guys were thrown out by 10 feet and so on.

[Spudboy]

I'm only asking for a handful of examples. I'd be more dumb to believe claims for which no solid evidence has been presented.

 

Okay I understand, I think.

 

I can't remember which specific games but two players have made boner plays that I can easily see in my mind's eye.

 

Beni for all his obvious talent, has had a habit of either throwing to the wrong spot and sometimes missing the cut-off man, and also just making wild and off target throws. This has happened many times but few people even seem to notice it.

 

For example. On the first double by Gattis the other night, Beni threw the ball to second and it sailed way too high enabling Gattis to slide in uncontested. Gattis is not exactly a burner so maybe a good throw comes close to getting him or in fact nails him.

 

I distinctly remember Beni doing something similar with the ball missing second base completely and being caught by our catcher in foul territory 2/3 of the way up the line to 1st.

 

Weather it was just poor execution or a brain fart it was a bonehead play.

 

I'm not picking on Beni here. But those things did happen and they did happen with greater frequency than they should have. Que the statheads with "Beni lead the OF in assists" ********.

 

Next, we have everyone's favorite smiling sloth, Hanley. How many times did he ignore or fail to see Butter's sign and blew past 3rd to get nailed? At least once. Maybe more.

 

These are just examples of bone head plays that I distinctly recall. There were many more.

 

Excusing the poor base running as just a natural artifact of Farrell's newfound aggression on the base paths is just a cop out.

 

There were clearly many bonehead plays this year. More that I can recall having seen from the Sox teams of recent years.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Spudboy

[devildavid]

Evidence for dumb baserunning? Well, we led the majors in Outs on the Bases with 81. Next highest was 70. MLB average was 53. Some of the OOB can certainly be chalked up to aggressiveness. But if you watched the games there were clearly an unusual number of WTF moments where guys were thrown out by 10 feet and so on.

 

And Farrell defended some of those. Nothing will ever change in that regard because Farrell chalks it up to the price of aggressiveness and believes it always comes out on the positive side of the ledger on balance. I ask how much potential scoring was squandered by OOB.

[devildavid]

Okay I understand, I think.

 

I can't remember which specific games but two players have made boner plays that I can easily see in my mind's eye.

 

Beni for all his obvious talent, has had a habit of either throwing to the wrongs spot and sometimes missing the cut-off man, and also just making wild and off target throws. This has happened many times but few people even seem to notice it.

 

For example. On the first double by Gattis the other night, Beni threw the ball to second and it sailed way too high enabling Gattis to slide in uncontested. Gattis is not exactly a burner so maybe a good throw comes close to getting him or in fact nails him.

 

I distinctly remember Beni doing something similar with the ball missing second base completely and being caught by our catcher in foul territory 2/3 of the way up the line.

 

Weather it was just poor execution of a brain fart it was a bonehead play.

 

I'm not picking on Beni here. But those things did happen and they did happen with greater frequency than they should have. Que the statheads with "Beni lead the OF in assists" ********.

 

Next, we have everyones favorite smiling sloth, Hanley. How many times did he ignore or failed to see Butter's sign and blew past 3rd to get nailed? At least once. Maybe more.

 

These are just examples of bone head plays that I distinctly recall. There were many more.

 

Excusing the poor base running as just a natural artifact of Farrell's newfound aggression on the base paths is just a cop out.

 

There were clearly many bonehead plays this year. More that I can recall having seen from the Sox teams of recent years.

 

The bad baserunning is an artifact of Farrell's philosophy. Farrell has publicly defended it.

 

It's ok to pick on Beni. It is his first full season and coaching and fellow players input can help him improve. He doesn't strike me as a dumb player unwilling to learn. But don't forget the great plays and runs saved by him as well. Is Beni a net negative or positive defensively?

 

And what is the estimate of games lost due to boneheaded plays? It wasn't enough to keep them out of first place despite Moon's claim that there were a massive amount of them. Something doesn't add up here.

Edited October 8, 2017 by devildavid

[Spudboy]

You responded predictably.

 

One can make all types of rationalizations but the fact remains the Sox were pretty f***ing sloppy sometimes. Far more that I would expect from a team with a $190. mil. payroll.

 

Winning 93 games is nice but is a number that ultimately is irrelevant when being swept in the playoffs.

[devildavid]

You responded predictably.

 

One can make all types of rationalizations but the fact remains the Sox were pretty f***ing sloppy sometimes. Far more that I would expect from a team with a $190. mil. payroll.

 

Winning 93 games is nice but is a number that ultimately is irrelevant when being swept in the playoffs.

 

It isn't a rationalization. If the problem is as bad as you make it out, yet the team still wins, maybe you are incorrect in your assessment of the severity of the problem. They play to win games, not earn style points. In sports, won/loss record is the bottom line.

 

They are not being swept in the playoffs because they were occasionally sloppy during the regular season. One has nothing to do with the other.

[Spudboy]

Lol.

 

Okay big guy. You get the final word. Be happy.

[Bellhorn04]

It isn't a rationalization. If the problem is as bad as you make it out, yet the team still wins, maybe you are incorrect in your assessment of the severity of the problem. They play to win games, not earn style points. In sports, won/loss record is the bottom line.

 

They are not being swept in the playoffs because they were occasionally sloppy during the regular season. One has nothing to do with the other.

 

But you have commented numerous times that you think Farrell's aggressive baserunning philosophy costs the team runs.

 

When you lose 2-8, 2-8, certainly, baserunning can not be said to be a big factor.

[a700hitter]

And Farrell defended some of those. Nothing will ever change in that regard because Farrell chalks it up to the price of aggressiveness and believes it always comes out on the positive side of the ledger on balance. I ask how much potential scoring was squandered by OOB.

So if bad fundamentals don't cost runs, it is okay and acceptable. That is ass backwards.

[devildavid]

But you have commented numerous times that you think Farrell's aggressive baserunning philosophy costs the team runs.

 

When you lose 2-8, 2-8, certainly, baserunning can not be said to be a big factor.

 

Not in those cases. Except Pedroia did run into the third out which maybe killed a potentially bigger inning. But the Astros are a much better team right now. Earlier in the regular season, the Sox had a better chance against them.

[a700hitter]

It isn't a rationalization. If the problem is as bad as you make it out, yet the team still wins, maybe you are incorrect in your assessment of the severity of the problem. They play to win games, not earn style points. In sports, won/loss record is the bottom line.

 

They are not being swept in the playoffs because they were occasionally sloppy during the regular season. One has nothing to do with the other.

Good fundamentals don't give you style points. Good fundamentals give give you the best chance of winning. These are mental blunders, not blunders borne of aggressiveness. For example sending Sandy Leon to make an out by 10 feet at home plate with 0 outs is dumb not aggressive. Benintendi heaving the ball to home plate when the opposing catcher has not even reached 3rd base is just dumb. It isn't aggressive. He was about 50 feet from the infield dirt. He could have just rune the ball into the infield and not heaved it to the backstop. There is no plus/delta for such stupidity. It is just poor fundamentals.

[devildavid]

So if bad fundamentals don't cost runs, it is okay and acceptable. That is ass backwards.

 

Farrell defends and espouses aggressive base running despite the occasional goof up it may cause because he sees the net result as positive. I don't agree with this philosophy. But it will always occur as long as Farrell is manager.

[devildavid]

Good fundamentals don't give you style points. Good fundamentals give give you the best chance of winning. These are mental blunders, not blunders borne of aggressiveness. For example sending Sandy Leon to make an out by 10 feet at home plate with 0 outs is dumb not aggressive. Benintendi heaving the ball to home plate when the opposing catcher has not even reached 3rd base is just dumb. It isn't aggressive. He was about 50 feet from the infield dirt. He could have just rune the ball into the infield and not heaved it to the backstop. There is no plus/delta for such stupidity. It is just poor fundamentals.

 

It is all part and parcel of Farrel's aggressive base running philosophy which he accepts as the price you pay to get a net positive result.

[a700hitter]

It is all part and parcel of Farrel's aggressive base running philosophy which he accepts as the price you pay to get a net positive result.

If he want to accept stupidity and poor fundamentals as part and parcel of aggressiveness that is very faulty logic.