Farrell

[cp176]

That's not how belief works. It is how proof works. But there is a grey area between the two which some might call "faith"...

 

I pretty much live in those gray areas.

[Kimmi]

DD, he's lawyering you. He's going to keep peppering you with questions and he will NEVER answer a question you ask him.

 

It is patently obvious what you are doing.

 

!!!

[notin]

!!!

 

He's patent lawyering

[Kimmi]

I can believe anything.

Let me first say again that I am a fan of your posts on this topic.

 

People are indeed free to believe anything that they want. Not everything can be proven with stats. I believe in many things that have not been proven with stats.

 

One of those things that I believe in is that Pedroia's 'grit' makes him a better player than he would have been otherwise. I have no proof of that whatsoever, but I 100% believe that. I know that many (including you?) believe that the idea of 'grit' making players better is hogwash. I'm okay with that.

 

Having said all that, when there is strong evidence that something doesn't exist, I think you (not you personally) have to at least consider that perhaps you might be wrong. I once believed in clutch. The evidence changed my mind. I once believe in line up protection. The evidence changed my mind.

 

If someone showed me as much evidence against grit as has been presented against 'clutch', I would probably have to concede that I was wrong about grit.

[Kimmi]

He's patent lawyering

 

LOL I see what you did there.

[moonslav59]

Let me first say again that I am a fan of your posts on this topic.

 

People are indeed free to believe anything that they want. Not everything can be proven with stats. I believe in many things that have not been proven with stats.

 

One of those things that I believe in is that Pedroia's 'grit' makes him a better player than he would have been otherwise. I have no proof of that whatsoever, but I 100% believe that. I know that many (including you?) believe that the idea of 'grit' making players better is hogwash. I'm okay with that.

 

Having said all that, when there is strong evidence that something doesn't exist, I think you (not you personally) have to at least consider that perhaps you might be wrong. I once believed in clutch. The evidence changed my mind. I once believe in line up protection. The evidence changed my mind.

 

If someone showed me as much evidence against grit as has been presented against 'clutch', I would probably have to concede that I was wrong about grit.

 

"Grit" includes determination and working extra hard to get better at something. Of course, working harder, practicing longer and sticktoitiveness is going to make anyone better at anything they do. I think that has been proven. When people study harder and longer they generally do better. When you practice shooting foul shots more, you improve your percentage, and on and on...

[devildavid]

Let me first say again that I am a fan of your posts on this topic.

 

People are indeed free to believe anything that they want. Not everything can be proven with stats. I believe in many things that have not been proven with stats.

 

One of those things that I believe in is that Pedroia's 'grit' makes him a better player than he would have been otherwise. I have no proof of that whatsoever, but I 100% believe that. I know that many (including you?) believe that the idea of 'grit' making players better is hogwash. I'm okay with that.

 

Having said all that, when there is strong evidence that something doesn't exist, I think you (not you personally) have to at least consider that perhaps you might be wrong. I once believed in clutch. The evidence changed my mind. I once believe in line up protection. The evidence changed my mind.

 

If someone showed me as much evidence against grit as has been presented against 'clutch', I would probably have to concede that I was wrong about grit.

 

Clutch is a very specific claim about specific performance results but some are treating it as if it isn't. Grit is a general claim and can be replaced by the word determination. There are a lot of very talented athletes who never make it to the top level of their sport. Sometimes they are outperformed by those with less talent but more grit. There is a mental aspect to being successful in sports that is needed in addition to a certain base level of physical talent. Not all the most talented make it if they lack the mental aspect. Grit doesn't mean you have to get your uniform dirty. It just means you have a determination in you that can help you succeed.

[devildavid]

Farrell may not be as good as Francona but I don't think any manager is going to change the key players performances enough to bring this team a championship.

[moonslav59]

Farrell may not be as good as Francona but I don't think any manager is going to change the key players performances enough to bring this team a championship.

 

Sometimes a change can create a spark or create a general sense that everyone has to "prove themselves" all over again for the new skipper to notice them, approve of them, or want to play them more. On a team with basically every position set with a FT starter, this means less.

 

I do agree that a manager makes little impact, but I do feel that if a manager highly stresses the fundamentals of the game from the first day of spring training to the last out of the season, not only can an observable difference be made, but the attitude changes as well.

 

We're not going to fire the team like we did in 2014. We are likely to add a couple key pieces (DH and corner IF'er), but I'd try to find a manager that can demand focus and perhaps spark us to do better than we expected, instead of worse.

 

Terry did that in 2013. He also had us playing very well for just about his whole term, except at the very end, when control appeared to be lost.

[Bellhorn04]

On the topic of clutch/choke/playoff pressure...

 

Before last night's Dodgers-D'Backs game even started, Eck was talking about how nervous D'Backs starter Walker might be...Eck said 'I'm nervous for him.' it was interesting.

[devildavid]

Sometimes a change can create a spark or create a general sense that everyone has to "prove themselves" all over again for the new skipper to notice them, approve of them, or want to play them more. On a team with basically every position set with a FT starter, this means less.

 

I do agree that a manager makes little impact, but I do feel that if a manager highly stresses the fundamentals of the game from the first day of spring training to the last out of the season, not only can an observable difference be made, but the attitude changes as well.

 

We're not going to fire the team like we did in 2014. We are likely to add a couple key pieces (DH and corner IF'er), but I'd try to find a manager that can demand focus and perhaps spark us to do better than we expected, instead of worse.

 

Terry did that in 2013. He also had us playing very well for just about his whole term, except at the very end, when control appeared to be lost.

 

Will a new manager change how Sale fades at the end of the season or make Price happy with the Boston sports media? Who do you see as the everyday players who need an attitude adjustment?

[moonslav59]

Will a new manager change how Sale fades at the end of the season or make Price happy with the Boston sports media? Who do you see as the everyday players who need an attitude adjustment?

 

A new manager might work to mitigate Sale's tendency to fade at the end of the year by limiting his pitches through the year.

 

A new manager can help to lessen the massive amounts of bonehead plays made by our players.

 

A new manager can change the clubhouse atmosphere (not that we know it is currently a problem).

 

A new manager would likely stop putting sub .600 hitters up first or second in the line-up.

 

 

[Spudboy]

Farrell may not be as good as Francona but I don't think any manager is going to change the key players performances enough to bring this team a championship.

 

I feel this way too.

[Spudboy]

A new manager might work to mitigate Sale's tendency to fade at the end of the year by limiting his pitches through the year.

 

A new manager can help to lessen the massive amounts of bonehead plays made by our players.

 

A new manager can change the clubhouse atmosphere (not that we know it is currently a problem).

 

A new manager would likely stop putting sub .600 hitters up first or second in the line-up.

 

 

 

But if the talent on the roster is not all that great would these things make a big enough difference in net ( team )performance?

[devildavid]

A new manager might work to mitigate Sale's tendency to fade at the end of the year by limiting his pitches through the year.

 

A new manager can help to lessen the massive amounts of bonehead plays made by our players.

 

A new manager can change the clubhouse atmosphere (not that we know it is currently a problem).

 

A new manager would likely stop putting sub .600 hitters up first or second in the line-up.

 

 

 

It sounds like this is a bigger problem than any manager can change. Massive amounts of boneheaded plays suggests that the Sox have some of the stupidest players in the league. If they made it to that level as boneheads and won two division titles what is going to make them change now? That's like expecting Sandoval to change when being fat never prevented him from winning rings and having fun and making big bucks. Players respond to rewards more than discipline.

[moonslav59]

It sounds like this is a bigger problem than any manager can change. Massive amounts of boneheaded plays suggests that the Sox have some of the stupidest players in the league. If they made it to that level as boneheads and won two division titles what is going to make them change now? That's like expecting Sandoval to change when being fat never prevented him from winning rings and having fun and making big bucks. Players respond to rewards more than discipline.

 

A manager can make a difference in these areas. It doesn't have to be by benching (or disciplining) a player who makes a bonehead play or two.

 

No, he's not likely to make a difference in Price's spat with the media- maybe, but not likely.

 

Seems like HRam got worse with running blunders, so who knows there.

 

Beni's blunders could be chalked up to inexperience, but lack of focus could be something a manager could work with the player on.

 

Notice I said "might" on everything, so I realize, this is all conjecture.

[devildavid]

A manager can make a difference in these areas. It doesn't have to be by benching (or disciplining) a player who makes a bonehead play or two.

 

No, he's not likely to make a difference in Price's spat with the media- maybe, but not likely.

 

Seems like HRam got worse with running blunders, so who knows there.

 

Beni's blunders could be chalked up to inexperience, but lack of focus could be something a manager could work with the player on.

 

Notice I said "might" on everything, so I realize, this is all conjecture.

 

Massive amounts of boneheaded plays suggests it is more than just a few players. Farrell's base running philosophy makes bad base runners worse. Base running is one area where a new manager could make a significant difference by reigning in the aggression.

[moonslav59]

But if the talent on the roster is not all that great would these things make a big enough difference in net ( team )performance?

 

I think yes.

 

I'm not sure about what our current "talent" value is. I realize I may have had expectations that were beyond these players' abilities. This would mean 2015 and 2016 were in some ways flukes or outliers for several players. Possible? Sure. probable? I think not.

 

I'm not blaming JF for just about everyone's decline at once. I'm not sure how much of an influence or impact any better manager could demonstrate. I'm not for change for change sake, but I do feel a change at the top is called for. I felt that before this year even started.

[Bellhorn04]

Farrell should probably go back to being a pitching coach.

 

I've defended him a lot in the second half. I think his in-game managing is generally fine. But I do seriously question his skills as a behind-the-scenes manager and motivator. The way the team has failed to show up for this series is really moving the needle to the bad side for me.

[cp176]

I'm not a big Farrell fan by any means but we have just won two division titles in a row. If we get eliminated, of course it will be upsetting but really - whether you like him or not, do you really think that you fire the manager after this? I know that I have have over rated most of the players that we have. I can only speak for myself but it is not that unusual for me to do. With the injuries that we have had and with the way that we have played, I think that is is quite an accomplishment to get where we have gotten. It has been a very entertaining spring summer and fall for me. As much as I think Houston is as good as there is in baseball right now, we aren't done just yet. Winning the World Series is of course the goal every year, but it is so difficult to do that just getting into a playoff position has to be worth something.

[moonslav59]

Farrell should probably go back to being a pitching coach.

 

I've defended him a lot in the second half. I think his in-game managing is generally fine. But I do seriously question his skills as a behind-the-scenes manager and motivator. The way the team has failed to show up for this series is really moving the needle to the bad side for me.

 

I think he's a great pitching coach. Too bad he will never accept that demotion on this team.

 

I have not had any major issues with in game choices- same as you.

 

My main issues are seeing rampant lack of fundamentals and what I called a lack of "fire and desire". Both seemed to improve as the season ended, and I hate to think 2 or 3 games changes much, but as i said, I wanted JF gone before this year even started.

[Spudboy]

Farrell is not being canned.

[moonslav59]

I'm not a big Farrell fan by any means but we have just won two division titles in a row. If we get eliminated, of course it will be upsetting but really - whether you like him or not, do you really think that you fire the manager after this? I know that I have have over rated most of the players that we have. I can only speak for myself but it is not that unusual for me to do. With the injuries that we have had and with the way that we have played, I think that is is quite an accomplishment to get where we have gotten. It has been a very entertaining spring summer and fall for me. As much as I think Houston is as good as there is in baseball right now, we aren't done just yet. Winning the World Series is of course the goal every year, but it is so difficult to do that just getting into a playoff position has to be worth something.

 

Maybe next year, your will say you under rated most of our players. Most of our players did better in both 2015 and 2016, so I'm not sure thinking their 2017 performance reflects their true or real value going forward.

[moonslav59]

Farrell is not being canned.

 

Agreed. He won't.

 

I think the debate is about the "should" or "should not."

 

[Spudboy]

Agreed. He won't.

 

I think the debate is about the "should" or "should not."

 

 

And my opinion is there is no significant reason to get rid of him.

[moonslav59]

And my opinion is there is no significant reason to get rid of him.

 

My opinion is that there are 4:

 

1) We have spent like maniacs and come up short too many times.

2) Lack of fundamentals and excessive mental blunders.

3) An apparent (to me) ho-hum attitude.

4) A significant massive decline by our top 8 returning everyday players and our 2016 Cy Young winner all at once.

 

#4 has been used to fire many a manager in the past.

[Spudboy]

My opinion is that there are 4:

 

1) We have spent like maniacs and come up short too many times.

2) Lack of fundamentals and excessive mental blunders.

3) An apparent (to me) ho-hum attitude.

4) A significant massive decline by our top 8 returning everyday players and our 2016 Cy Young winner all at once.

 

#4 has been used to fire many a manager in the past.

 

I see #2 as valid but the other ones not things that can be attributed to the manager.

[Bellhorn04]

Farrell is not being canned.

 

If the Sox get swept out I think it's a real possibility. Francona was shown the door after a 90 win season and 2 titles in 8 years.

 

We do have kind of a small window with this group, and we don't really have the resources to make big personnel changes before next year. Changing the manager is one of the few significant moves they can make.

[moonslav59]

I see #2 as valid but the other ones not things that can be attributed to the manager.

 

Not even to a small extent on 1,3 & 4?

[a700hitter]

Not even to a small extent on 1,3 & 4?

I agree with Spud. I can only fault him for poor fundamental teams. I think you are wrong about a ho him attitude. The fact that these guys had such an extraordinary record in extra inning games demonstrates their will and their fight. It is not randomness -- another sta head whacky theory. On the telecasts, the former ball players have noted that as the extra inning games drone on that often times the players just want the game to end without care who wins. That is not the case with this crew. They never gave up in those games and in many of those games they broke the will of the other teams. I don't see any bad or ho hum attitude from these fellas.

 

The big reason that we will see Farrell in our dugout next year is that owners just don't fire managers the same year that the team has won a division crown. He has won two division crowns in a row. I can't remember the last time that a manager got fired after winning 2 Division titles in a row.