What will be the 2017 greatest weakness for the Sox?

[Bellhorn04]

Consistency and repeatibility is the proof that it exists. Now - at least for me - the issue is not whether big moments exist. Of course they do. (this seems to be a popular strawman) It is whether the ability to deliver then is really differentiating.

 

Clutch would be a little easier to get behind as a thing if there were, say players the caliber of Sandy Leon - who delivered Papi-esque production in higher leverage spots.

 

At best, clutch performers are a subset of a group of players who were already far more likely to deliver than their counterparts.

 

Which would suggest that it's really 'non-clutch' that can be identified - the player who should deliver in those spots but doesn't.

[moonslav59]

How about calling him "The Greatest Random Hitter of All Time"?

 

That's funny!

[moonslav59]

This whole 'repeatability' issue with clutch thing gets overplayed a bit, in my opinion. Hitting home runs is a 'repeatable skill', but even the best can only do it once every 15 times up or something like that.

 

And, it doesn't mean if they don't have 4 HRs in 60 times up, they are a choke.

[mvp 78]

And, it doesn't mean if they don't have 4 HRs in 60 times up, they are a choke.

 

It means they are a punch and judy hitter. - David Ortiz

[moonslav59]

It means they are a punch and judy hitter. - David Ortiz

 

LMAO!

 

Also, the softy the clown reference to Jake (Jacoby Ellsbury).

[Kimmi]

There is no anti-stat crowd.

 

Of course there is.

[a700hitter]

Of course there is.

There are none on TalkSox.

[Kimmi]

They're still human beings, and human beings have psychological issues.

 

I do not disagree with this. However, the players who make it to the major league and stick have to be able to handle pressure very well in order to make it that far. There might be some slight variations in how well different players handle pressure, but if someone is a successful major league player, I think he has learned how to cope with the pressure pretty well.

[cp176]

No one I hope would disagree with what you have said here. Any professional athlete has to have learned to deal with pressure very well or they wouldn't be where they are. None of them are immune to what it can do though and some deal with it a lot better than others.

[Kimmi]

The yips are a real thing in sports. This is not even debatable. Golfers get putting yips. Steve Sax had the throw to first base yips, and now Jon Lester has the same.

 

I don't deny the impact of psychological factors on a player's performance, but do you consider Lester's yips about throwing to first base as choking?

 

With his postseason performance, he is certainly not someone I'd consider a choker.

 

Can you be a partial choker, partial clutch player at the same time?

[Bellhorn04]

I don't deny the impact of psychological factors on a player's performance, but do you consider Lester's yips about throwing to first base as choking?

 

With his postseason performance, he is certainly not someone I'd consider a choker.

 

Can you be a partial choker, partial clutch player at the same time?

 

Personally I don't like the choke term much. I'm just pointing out an example of how the mind can malfunction even when you're a proven major leaguer.

[Kimmi]

There are none on TalkSox.

 

1. You do not speak for all of Talksox.

 

2. My point still stands whether there are any here or not.

[a700hitter]

1. You do not speak for all of Talksox.

 

2. My point still stands whether there are any here or not.

I have never read anything here by any TS member that would make me think they were "anti-stat", and I have been here a long time. And if there are no anti-stat people here, your point would only stand if you were referring to anti-stat people outside of TS.

[a700hitter]

I don't deny the impact of psychological factors on a player's performance, but do you consider Lester's yips about throwing to first base as choking?

 

With his postseason performance, he is certainly not someone I'd consider a choker.

 

Can you be a partial choker, partial clutch player at the same time?

Sometimes you conquer the nerves. Sometimes you don't.

[Kimmi]

No one I hope would disagree with what you have said here. Any professional athlete has to have learned to deal with pressure very well or they wouldn't be where they are. None of them are immune to what it can do though and some deal with it a lot better than others.

 

I think that if you looked at the college level or high school level, you would see strong cases of choke that would be statistically significant.

[notin]

Just because I can't prove something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. But I guess that you don't get that.

 

Just because you were always told something exists doesn't mean it does. That's how the Tooth Fairy is kept around.

 

Anyway I never asked for proof clutch hitters exist. I asked for a definition.

[Kimmi]

Personally I don't like the choke term much. I'm just pointing out an example of how the mind can malfunction even when you're a proven major leaguer.

 

Once again, I don't disagree. I still don't consider that choking.

 

And I do think that major leaguers can have their choking moments. They are not overall chokers though.

[a700hitter]

Just because you were always told something exists doesn't mean it does. That's how the Tooth Fairy is kept around.

 

Anyway I never asked for proof clutch hitters exist. I asked for a definition.

No one has ever experienced the tooth fairy. People who have played the game and coached have experienced clutch/choking can describe what it is. Maybe they can define it. I have never asked them for a definition.

[notin]

Once again, I don't disagree. I still don't consider that choking.

 

And I do think that major leaguers can have their choking moments. They are not overall chokers though.

 

But is it choking if a pitcher's ineffective outing in the post-season is because the long season simply wore him out?

[a700hitter]

Once again, I don't disagree. I still don't consider that choking.

 

And I do think that major leaguers can have their choking moments. They are not overall chokers though.

Correct, but players who don't choke or choke less than everyone else are clutch.

[Kimmi]

I have never read anything here by any TS member that would make me think they were "anti-stat", and I have been here a long time. And if there are no anti-stat people here, your point would only stand if you were referring to anti-stat people outside of TS.

 

Against stats in general? No.

 

Against what the stat geeks are doing in terms of research on topics like clutch and against some of the advanced stats? Absolutely.

 

You know what I'm talking about. Don't play semantics with me just to argue.

 

And my point still stands, here and elsewhere.

[a700hitter]

Against stats in general? No.

 

Against what the stat geeks are doing in terms of research on topics like clutch and against some of the advanced stats? Absolutely.

 

You know what I'm talking about. Don't play semantics with me just to argue.

 

And my point still stands, here and elsewhere.

You are being paranoid. Baseball fans are obsessed with statistics.

[cp176]

I think that if you looked at the college level or high school level, you would see strong cases of choke that would be statistically significant.

 

I surely do think that you would see more tendencies toward these types of things at the lower levels but I don't think that a player's skill level necessarily tells me whether they will come up big or not at any level all the time. I just believe that we can't provide data to determine everything. You might not agree with me and that is ok. It also doesn't mean that I don't appreciate and understand the value of using every piece of information that we can get our hands on to help us. I do. I also think that it is very true that many of the greatest games are won and lost because of what someone has between their ears and I think that it is pretty tough to measure that.

[Kimmi]

No one has ever experienced the tooth fairy. People who have played the game and coached have experienced clutch/choking can describe what it is. Maybe they can define it. I have never asked them for a definition.

 

Umm yes. Many, many people have experienced the tooth fairy.

[a700hitter]

Umm yes. Many, many people have experienced the tooth fairy.

Oh, okay.

[Kimmi]

But is it choking if a pitcher's ineffective outing in the post-season is because the long season simply wore him out?

 

No it is not. I'm not even talking about an entire outing though.

 

A specific moment, like rushing a throw, or getting overanxious in an at bat.

[cp176]

Hey don't get me going about the tooth fairy. My grandchildren are currently making small fortunes as a result of that old bat. lol

[Kimmi]

You are being paranoid. Baseball fans are obsessed with statistics.

 

You know I'm right. Hence, the resorting to name calling.

[Kimmi]

Hey don't get me going about the tooth fairy. My grandchildren are currently making small fortunes as a result of that old bat. lol

 

And to your grandchildren, who are experiencing the tooth fairy, the tooth fairy is very real.

 

But alas, it's all a mirage.

[Kimmi]

Correct, but players who don't choke or choke less than everyone else are clutch.

 

Well, that would be like half the league.