What will be the 2017 greatest weakness for the Sox?

[Kimmi]

There is a smugness on the part of the statheads who think that stats can prove or disprove whether the mental aspect of the game can negatively or positively impact on performance. Only the competitors can know the look of defeat in an opponent's eyes or demeanor or the look of indomitable spirit.

 

Personally, I think there is a smugness in the anti-stat crowd.

 

Nowhere did anyone say that the mental aspect of the game does not impact performance.

[Kimmi]

I think it's completely fair to say "David Price has choked in the playoffs." Does that necessarily mean he'll choke the next time he's in the playoffs? Nope.

 

You can say the same thing for Mark Melancon in Boston. Melancon choked as the closer for Boston. Does that mean he would always choke in Boston? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe he does do better in a smaller market in the NL East like DC or Pittsburgh? It would be very fair for someone to say "I don't want the Sox to bring back Melancon, because he choked here."

 

There are definitely choking moments, just as there are clutch moments.

 

There are people who will fold under pressure or choke, but those people have been weeded out by the major league level.

[a700hitter]

Personally, I think there is a smugness in the anti-stat crowd.

 

Nowhere did anyone say that the mental aspect of the game does not impact performance.

There is no anti-stat crowd.

[a700hitter]

There are definitely choking moments, just as there are clutch moments.

 

There are people who will fold under pressure or choke, but those people have been weeded out by the major league level.

No they have not.

[Bellhorn04]

They're still human beings, and human beings have psychological issues.

[notin]

They're still human beings, and human beings have psychological issues.

 

Yes but are they human beings whose ability to handle pressure is beyond what you and I understand?

 

What do you think of as big pressure moments?

[notin]

There are definitely choking moments, just as there are clutch moments.

 

There are people who will fold under pressure or choke, but those people have been weeded out by the major league level.

 

I question the idea of choking moments in a game where even the best hitters are successful only 30% of the time...

[notin]

There is no anti-stat crowd.

 

How about an anti-stathead crowd?

[a700hitter]

How about an anti-stathead crowd?

The smug ones.

[notin]

It's like pornography. You know it when you see it and the players and coaches can see it.

 

That's a horrible definition. Far too subjective. As a former (?) lawyer, you should be keenly aware the definition didn't work for them, and doesn't work for you (or me). If either of us can randomly determine when a hitter is "clutch" it takes all meaning from the word and leaves it as a bare bones concept at best.

 

And maybe coaches and players can recognize it, but our observational skills aren't as tuned in as theirs. And it's not like we talk to them about it.

 

Bottom line is, if you can't even tell me what a clutch hitter is, how can you know enough to recognize one?

Edited February 8, 2017 by notin

[User Name]

Yes, it should matter. Even if Papi has ice in his veins, I don't expect him to hit better than normal against LHP in late innings. To me, clutch is just replicating normal performance under high stress situations.

 

In other words, the absence of choke, or what I've saying for a while.

[User Name]

I disagree. The fact that it happened proves that it exists. And your comment doesn't remove the fact that it exists.

 

It's not a representative sample. You can't prove a broad point based on your subjective personal experience. Sorry, but that's how it works.

[notin]

I don't find it any more insulting than being told that something doesn't exist - after I've lived it.

 

At what level were you playing when you lived in all this clutch hitting?

[a700hitter]

That's a horrible definition. Far too subjective. As a former (?) lawyer, you should be keenly aware the definition didn't work for them, and doesn't work for you (or me). If either of us can randomly determine when a hitter is "clutch" it takes all meaning from the word and leaves it as a bare bones concept at best.

 

And maybe coaches and players can recognize it, but our observational skills aren't as tuned in as theirs. And it's not like we talk to them about it.

 

Bottom line is, if you can't even tell me what a clutch hitter is, how can you know enough to recognize one?

I never said that I could recognize a clutch hitter. I have said that the guys in the clubhouse -- players and coaches can tell you.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes but are they human beings whose ability to handle pressure is beyond what you and I understand?

 

What do you think of as big pressure moments?

 

Their ability to handle pressure is way beyond mine, I'm not disputing that for a moment. But even with an advanced ability to handle pressure, the situations that major league athletes are placed in create pressures that go way beyond what we can fathom.

 

Failures in big spots can be catastrophic events for these athletes. When a player or a coach screws up at a moment when the season is on the line, they can become an object of hatred and derision for a long time. Nobody forgives and forgets Grady, or Buckner, or Schiraldi, never.

 

In the case of Schiraldi, his failure in Game 6 not only made him a villain in Sox history, it may have ruined his career. He seemed like a very promising arm, but I don't think he recovered from that.

 

Major league athletes can lose the season for their team, and their fans, and they can lose their jobs.

 

Who knows how many players who had all the physical talents to be major leaguers were defeated by their fear of failure? Psychological yips may have been what did in Daniel Bard, just for one isolated example.

[notin]

I never said that I could recognize a clutch hitter. I have said that the guys in the clubhouse -- players and coaches can tell you.

 

Maybe they can. Maybe they also have a definition of one as well.

 

But at this point, are you saying the entire argument for the existence of clutch hitting rests solely on the testimony of a bunch of people you have never talked to and likely never will?

 

By that logic, I can prove the existence of UFO's...

[Bellhorn04]

A few of us reference golf as a sport where fear and choking is admitted. If you want some credible information on fear and choking in football, just read the book North Dallas Forty. It's a novel, but Peter Gent did play in actual NFL games for the actual Dallas Cowboys. And in the book he is constantly talking about the fear of failure, of being humiliated by dropping a pass, of losing his job, of screwing up in front of millions. And he says all the players suffer fear. He talks about the bathroom always being full before the start of a game.

[moonslav59]

So after pages and pages or circular conversations, can we definitively say our teams biggest weakness is the lack of "clutchness"?

 

(LOL)

[a700hitter]

Maybe they can. Maybe they also have a definition of one as well.

 

But at this point, are you saying the entire argument for the existence of clutch hitting rests solely on the testimony of a bunch of people you have never talked to and likely never will?

 

By that logic, I can prove the existence of UFO's...

I gave you this answer once already: You don't know who I have talked to.

 

I will side with the players and coaches on this issue -- even the ones with whom I have not talked. A lot of them have written about it and talked about it.

Edited February 8, 2017 by a700hitter

[notin]

A few of us reference golf as a sport where fear and choking is admitted. If you want some credible information on fear and choking in football, just read the book North Dallas Forty. It's a novel, but Peter Gent did play in actual NFL games for the actual Dallas Cowboys. And in the book he is constantly talking about the fear of failure, of being humiliated by dropping a pass, of losing his job, of screwing up in front of millions. And he says all the players suffer fear. He talks about the bathroom always being full before the start of a game.

 

That's funny. As that I'd EXACTLY the direction I was heading in. We all think of choking and failure and clutch as being associated with big moments, typically the post-season. But I would suspect the minor leagues are far more pressure packed. Players like Buckner and Schiraldi and Scott Norwood might live in ignominy, but they also lived well. They lived their dreams. But how about minor leaguers who need to impress or face a lifetime of bus rides and winter jobs?

[Bellhorn04]

The yips are a real thing in sports. This is not even debatable. Golfers get putting yips. Steve Sax had the throw to first base yips, and now Jon Lester has the same.

[Bellhorn04]

That's funny. As that I'd EXACTLY the direction I was heading in. We all think of choking and failure and clutch as being associated with big moments, typically the post-season. But I would suspect the minor leagues are far more pressure packed. Players like Buckner and Schiraldi and Scott Norwood might live in ignominy, but they also lived well. They lived their dreams. But how about minor leaguers who need to impress or face a lifetime of bus rides and winter jobs?

 

Different levels and types of fear of failure, absolutely. There are plenty of 'em.

[Bellhorn04]

Does anyone remember Ramiro Mendoza's final appearance for the Red Sox? It was in the 19-8 game in the 2004 ALCS. He wasn't in the game long. He had a balk and a hit batter and he looked like the classic deer in the headlights out there. I remember Joe Buck commenting on how rattled he looked. Tito did not use him after that. I could be mistaken about this, but I don't think he was injured.

 

The strange footnote is that Mendoza ended up the losing pitcher in that game although he was only charged with 1 of the 19 runs.

[mvp 78]

In other words, the absence of choke, or what I've saying for a while.

 

Pfft, you've been stealing my lines for years now...

[notin]

I gave you this answer once already: You don't know who I have talked to.

 

I will side with the players and coaches on this issue -- even the ones with whom I have not talked. A lot of them have written about it and talked about it.

 

So have you ever talked to a major league coach or manager about clutch hitters?

 

I suppose I could also ask who wrote about it and why they didn't define it while writing. Seems like a poor way to address the topic...

[notin]

Different levels and types of fear of failure, absolutely. There are plenty of 'em.

 

Of course fear of failure isn't necessarily the same thing as being clutch. Given how often hitters fail, it better not be...

[a700hitter]

So have you ever talked to a major league coach or manager about clutch hitters?

 

I suppose I could also ask who wrote about it and why they didn't define it while writing. Seems like a poor way to address the topic...

So you think it doesn't exist. That's your opinion. I have just said all along that I disagree with that opinion and I have said why. I never said that I can prove it, but neither can the opposite be proved.

[notin]

Ok Bellhorn, let's look at it this way.

 

"Clutch" is up for debate, as many are currently engaged in. But "choke" seems to be widely accepted. So is it possible that "clutch hitting" is really being on the receiving end of "choke pitching"? Did David Price choke or was Lonnie Chisenhall clutch? Or both?

 

(Or wad Lonnie a little lucky?)

[notin]

So you think it doesn't exist. That's your opinion. I have just said all along that I disagree with that opinion and I have said why. I never said that I can prove it, but neither can the opposite be proved.

 

Actually I haven't said if it exists or not. All I've been asking for is a definition. I'm open on the subject.

[a700hitter]

Actually I haven't said if it exists or not. All I've been asking for is a definition. I'm open on the subject.

And I think it is subjective.