Jose Bautista

[moonslav59]

So how can you disagree with it if it made perfect sense - is it that you think they undervalued Iggy? Do you think they could have obtained Peavy for less? Or do you think Peavy wasn't essential? Which is it.

 

It made sense, because Iggy was never going to start for the Sox.

 

Yes, I think they did not value Iggy as highly as I did. I'm not saying they were wrong, or I am right. Iggy has not lit the world on fire since the deal.

 

The Kimbrel deal made sense too, since we needed a closer... not "perfect sense: though, because we gave 4 prospects and paid near top dollar at the time.

 

The Pom trade made sense too, because we needed a starter.

 

making sense doesn't mean I have to agree with these deals.

 

It made sense to not make those deals as well, but for other reasons.

[moonslav59]

alas - hindsight - the Pomeranz deal was done for a good reason that made sense. Espi might be working back wherever he came from as well 4 years from now.

 

You know, with me, this isn't hindsight. I hated the deal the second it was done.

 

With me, it's not about Pom either. I like him.

 

It's about losing Espi.

[a700hitter]

2014 was not the result of having stripped the farm system without concern for the future, nor was 2015. Those years were just about very poor roster construction.

[moonslav59]

2014 was not the result of having stripped the farm system without concern for the future, nor was 2015. Those years were just about very poor roster construction.

 

...and down years for too many players.

[notin]

As I like to tell people, don't answer a question with a question.

 

Exactly and specifically what do you think Vazquez needs to do better defensively to be something better than a backup catcher? Is it that his arm isn't good enough? Or that he doesn't block pitches in the dirt. or that he doesn't frame pitches well enough?

 

So... in order to get your point across about not asking a question with a question - which is a bit narrow; sometimes a question is the best answer - you asked a question.

 

OK, from someone who is not a scout, Vazquez is fine defensively. The problem is - so is every other backup catcher in MLB.

 

Whether you like defense or not, do you think Vazquez does any of those things better than most other catchers? Where do you rank him defensively? What catcher des he remind you most of?

[moonslav59]

I'm probably biased, but I think Vaz is already a better defender than most starting catchers in MLB and probably back-ups as well. I think he can continue to improve as will others around the league.

 

It's too early to know about the intangibles, which to me are big factors, like handling the staff, so a lot is still unknown. I'm hoping for the best, but I realize it might just all be hope.

[S5Dewey]

So... in order to get your point across about not asking a question with a question - which is a bit narrow; sometimes a question is the best answer - you asked a question.

 

OK, from someone who is not a scout, Vazquez is fine defensively. The problem is - so is every other backup catcher in MLB.

 

Whether you like defense or not, do you think Vazquez does any of those things better than most other catchers? Where do you rank him defensively? What catcher des he remind you most of?

 

I agree. He does all of those things as well as any backup catcher in MLB. The thing is, he also does them as well as many full-time catchers in MLB. He doesn't have to be 'THE BEST CATCHER in MLB' to start for the Red Sox and IMO he's being sold short by only comparing him to the minor league catchers.

 

As to ranking him among baseball catchers, I can't do that. I see probably 150+ Red Sox games over a summer and a handful of other games so I don't see every catcher. I do know what I see as compared to the other Red Sox catchers and catchers on opposing teams and I see him as being as good or better defensively in the areas of blocking balls in the dirt and throwing runners out as most of the catchers I've seen. I'll confess that I've been unable to find data on where he ranks as a pitch framer but it's reputed to be one of this biggest strengths.

 

I'm not a scout either so I can't get into the area of pitch calling and the pitcher's comfort level with him. Those are things that come through the clubhouse and things I'm not privy to.

 

He currently has a ML WAR of 1.4 over two seasons which IMO would qualify him for better than backup status. While the argument can be made that the SS is small at the same time it's the only sample size we've got so it is meaningful within that context.

 

Sandy Leon has done a great job but his strength was his totally unsustainable hitting and he came back to earth during the latter part of the 2016 season. I fully expect him to revert back to what he is in 2017 - a fine backup catcher who struggles to get over the Mendoza line and with an OPS of ~.500, which is fine for a backup catcher..I guess. OTOH I see Vaz as having a slight improvement as he gets more experience (in this case the SSS combined with his youth works in his favor) and he'll hit ~.250 with an OPS >.600. Not great, but his defensive tools make him a starting catcher.

 

So that's why I think he's good enough to start, but you still haven't told me what areas he has to improve in defensively for you to see him as a starter.

[cp176]

I agree. He does all of those things as well as any backup catcher in MLB. The thing is, he also does them as well as many full-time catchers in MLB. He doesn't have to be 'THE BEST CATCHER in MLB' to start for the Red Sox and IMO he's being sold short by only comparing him to the minor league catchers.

 

As to ranking him among baseball catchers, I can't do that. I see probably 150+ Red Sox games over a summer and a handful of other games so I don't see every catcher. I do know what I see as compared to the other Red Sox catchers and catchers on opposing teams and I see him as being as good or better defensively in the areas of blocking balls in the dirt and throwing runners out as most of the catchers I've seen. I'll confess that I've been unable to find data on where he ranks as a pitch framer but it's reputed to be one of this biggest strengths.

 

I'm not a scout either so I can't get into the area of pitch calling and the pitcher's comfort level with him. Those are things that come through the clubhouse and things I'm not privy to.

 

He currently has a ML WAR of 1.4 over two seasons which IMO would qualify him for better than backup status. While the argument can be made that the SS is small at the same time it's the only sample size we've got so it is meaningful within that context.

 

Sandy Leon has done a great job but his strength was his totally unsustainable hitting and he came back to earth during the latter part of the 2016 season. I fully expect him to revert back to what he is in 2017 - a fine backup catcher who struggles to get over the Mendoza line and with an OPS of ~.500, which is fine for a backup catcher..I guess. OTOH I see Vaz as having a slight improvement as he gets more experience (in this case the SSS combined with his youth works in his favor) and he'll hit ~.250 with an OPS >.600. Not great, but his defensive tools make him a starting catcher.

 

So that's why I think he's good enough to start, but you still haven't told me what areas he has to improve in defensively for you to see him as a starter.

 

Not my discussion but what the heck- Doesn't it really come down to who you like more personally when you are talking about Vazquez or Leon. Leon is only a year older. does Vazquez's defensive stat line look better than Leon's? I'll bet it is very close. Will Leon put up the offensive numbers that he put up last year? Probably not but will he outhit Vazquez? He very well might. I think that in this case it will boil down to which of these two hits better. Until Vazquez proves that he can do it, it is going to be Leon's job.

[S5Dewey]

Not my discussion but what the heck- Doesn't it really come down to who you like more personally when you are talking about Vazquez or Leon. Leon is only a year older. does Vazquez's defensive stat line look better than Leon's? I'll bet it is very close. Will Leon put up the offensive numbers that he put up last year? Probably not but will he outhit Vazquez? He very well might. I think that in this case it will boil down to which of these two hits better. Until Vazquez proves that he can do it, it is going to be Leon's job.

 

I agree that the difference between the two of them is small right now. I was pleasantly surprised by Leon's defense last year especially since he was picked up as an "emergency catcher", and it's not outside the realm of possibility that the team will break camp with the two of them being the catching staff.

 

If that happens then the decision as to who's the starting catcher may be made - as Dave O'Brian said - by the pitching staff. If that's the case then there's not much to choose from between the two. If the difference between the two is that small and Leon is a starting catcher then Vazquez is better than being a backup catcher and could probably start for many teams.

 

IMO Vazquez' ceiling is higher both offensively and defensively than is Leon's, which is why I still think Vaz will be the starting catcher by early in the summer.

Edited December 14, 2016 by S5Dewey

[moonslav59]

I wasn't surprised by Leon's defense. That's what we got him for.

 

It certainly wasn't for his .550 OPS.

[cp176]

I agree that the difference between the two of them is small right now. I was pleasantly surprised by Leon's defense last year especially since he was picked up as an "emergency catcher", and it's not outside the realm of possibility that the team will break camp with the two of them being the catching staff.

 

If that happens then the decision as to who's the starting catcher may be made - as Dave O'Brian said - by the pitching staff. If that's the case then there's not much to choose from between the two. If the difference between the two is that small and Leon is a starting catcher then Vazquez is better than being a backup catcher and could probably start for many teams.

 

IMO Vazquez' ceiling is higher both offensively and defensively than is Leon's, which is why I still think Vaz will be the starting catcher by early in the summer.

 

You are a Mainer so I obviously am going to respect your opinion. I think that we both live in real Maine too. Leon has been known a defense first catcher. I'm ok with either of these two actually. And to be honest with you, I don't think either one of them has the all-stamp on their head. They both could get the job done though.

[Emp9]

2014 was not the result of having stripped the farm system without concern for the future, nor was 2015. Those years were just about very poor roster construction.

 

but the Sox were also trying to graduate parts of the farm at the same time for long term gain. It was in flux as well as poor performances and poor roster construction. Despite those last place finishes there was a lot of effort dedicated towards building the roster we have now. That s*** takes time.

[mvp 78]

You are a Mainer so I obviously am going to respect your opinion. I think that we both live in real Maine too. Leon has been known a defense first catcher. I'm ok with either of these two actually. And to be honest with you, I don't think either one of them has the all-stamp on their head. They both could get the job done though.

 

Ogunquit, obviously.

[S5Dewey]

ogunquit, obviously.

 

rofl !!!

[moonslav59]

but the Sox were also trying to graduate parts of the farm at the same time for long term gain. It was in flux as well as poor performances and poor roster construction. Despite those last place finishes there was a lot of effort dedicated towards building the roster we have now. That s*** takes time.

 

It also took a system that allowed us to sign Moncada and pay a 100% tax without any further signing restrictions. A system, that for years, allowed us to draft players who fell in the draft due to unsignability issues. A system that gave us comp picks for losing aging stars that we simply replaced with new free agents with little penalties attached.

 

The system has changed.

 

We've done great in the international area, Rusney not withstanding, but we have not drafted well, unless we sucked and got high picks like Beni, TBall and Groome.

 

I'm not sure we can expect better draft selections with DD & Co. We shouldn't be getting any picks above 24 for the next 3 years.

[Spudboy]

rofl !!!

 

Camden.

[Spudboy]

It also took a system that allowed us to sign Moncada and pay a 100% tax without any further signing restrictions. A system, that for years, allowed us to draft players who fell in the draft due to unsignability issues. A system that gave us comp picks for losing aging stars that we simply replaced with new free agents with little penalties attached.

 

The system has changed.

 

We've done great in the international area, Rusney not withstanding, but we have not drafted well, unless we sucked and got high picks like Beni, TBall and Groome.

 

I'm not sure we can expect better draft selections with DD & Co. We shouldn't be getting any picks above 24 for the next 3 years.

 

All legitimate reasons for concern. No need for razor blades at this point, though.

 

It's only baseball.

[moonslav59]

All legitimate reasons for concern. No need for razor blades at this point, though.

 

It's only baseball.

 

I'm hoping we continue doing well with international signings. Our ban will be lifted next spring.

 

I have not given up hope on our extended future, but it seemed emphasizing how difficult it will be 9based on our last 11 yeaar history and the new system in place) needed to be expressed.

 

I didn't mean it to sound like razors whizzing through these pages, but it seemed to me that some posters were minimizing the difficulties ahead or sugarcoating our longterm outlook.

[moonslav59]

Camden.

 

Limington then New Gloucester

[OH FOY]

Good point I just read, you sign him this year, you lose the Draft Pick, but then you cant give him a QO year after that, to try to get pick back.

Double whammy.

[sk7326]

Good point I just read, you sign him this year, you lose the Draft Pick, but then you cant give him a QO year after that, to try to get pick back.

Double whammy.

 

It also would be a lesser pick anyway

[cp176]

Ogunquit, obviously.

 

Ok - now you crossed the (state) line. North of Portland where men are men.(You get to decide for yourself about the women).

We let the gov. handle you down staters.

[S5Dewey]

Ok - now you crossed the (state) line. North of Portland where men are men.(You get to decide for yourself about the women).

We let the gov. handle you down staters.

 

You're entirely too generous. I'd draw that line kinda slashways between Jackman & Bath. Anything South of that line is really just North Boston.

[moonslav59]

Ok - now you crossed the (state) line. North of Portland where men are men.(You get to decide for yourself about the women).

We let the gov. handle you down staters.

 

Good, New Gloucester is an inch north of Portland.

 

I'm a man; I'm a man; I'm a man!

 

I will say, Limington is more back woods than New Gloucester, and it's southwest of Portland.

 

Maybe you should amend your statement to north of Lewiston-Auburn-- better yet, Augusta-Waterville.

 

Some would argue Bangah north.

 

[moonslav59]

You're entirely too generous. I'd draw that line kinda slashways between Jackman & Bath. Anything South of that line is really just North Boston.

 

Too funny. I was typing mine at the same time.

[S5Dewey]

 

Some would argue Bangah north.

 

 

No F Way! that puts me in with those clowns from North Boston!

[moonslav59]

No F Way! that puts me in with those clowns from North Boston!

 

Weel, we could divide it into 3 sections:

 

OOB south is North Boston.

Biddeford-Saco to Bangor is the middle ground.

Bangor north is true "man" territory.

[S5Dewey]

Weel, we could divide it into 3 sections:

 

OOB south is North Boston.

Biddeford-Saco to Bangor is the middle ground.

Bangor north is true "man" territory.

 

I'e got to agree that anything north of Bangor is true "man" territory. Once you get much North of Bangor on I-95 it's even money whether you're going to meet another car or a wild animal first. I mean... seriously... you can go for miles and miles between exits, and there are NO homes to be seen between exits!

[moonslav59]

I'e got to agree that anything north of Bangor is true "man" territory. Once you get much North of Bangor on I-95 it's even money whether you're going to meet another car or a wild animal first. I mean... seriously... you can go for miles and miles between exits, and there are NO homes to be seen between exits!

 

My parents have a sweet spot on Sebago Lake. One time I drove from Portland all the way to tip of Raymond Neck (50 minutes) and never saw one car. Okay it was midnight on a school night, but still, Route 302 is the major East-West highway in Maine. The whole state is a different world.

[Bellhorn04]

I'e got to agree that anything north of Bangor is true "man" territory. Once you get much North of Bangor on I-95 it's even money whether you're going to meet another car or a wild animal first. I mean... seriously... you can go for miles and miles between exits, and there are NO homes to be seen between exits!

 

Exactly like parts of my province of Nova Scotia and neighboring New Brunswick. Our geography and highway scenery is very similar to Maine's.