Sox get Sale

[Bellhorn04]

no, Lackey himself never said this. publicly at least. that's what agents are for. and yes, his agent absolutely indicated to the Boston Red Sox that his client would retire instead of playing for the minimum for the Boston Red Sox.

 

If that actually happened they should have called his bluff. I really don't believe a guy as competitive as Lackey would have stopped playing baseball for the sake of a spiteful disagreement. He and his agent agreed to the damn contract in the first place and he did get paid a lot of money while he was playing injured and recovering from surgery.

[Bellhorn04]

Ha! A sneak attack, take them by surprise!... 'cause ya' know, apparently it's really easy to sneak up on someone who lives in a f***ing desert.

 

Please please no political comments.

[Emp9]

I never expected relief pitching to cost as much as it has in recent years. Was it just all bad timing? Back when our farm was full, I expected a trade for a cost-controlled TOTR SP ( like Sale, but maybe not Sale). I thought that was the first thing to focus on and then worry about our BP. And with every trade that came along, I kept hearing "it's only one trade" or "can't keep all your prospects", "DD's not destroying the farm" etc. Even though I thought pieces like Margot and Guerra were great resources to help net a us the bigger prize, a cost-controlled TOTR SP. I thought every chip mattered (and I still do) and that every chip thrown in on a deal that wasn't for a top SP was one less chip or optional chip we'd have when the time came to make the real splash. I'm just mentioning all this for clarity on the Sale trade and further depletion of the farm. If we traded for a top SP like Sale first, would our farm look any different today? Or, looking at how RP costs have risen even further, would out farm look worse?

[Emp9]

Please please no political comments.

 

sorry, couldn't help myself I guess.

[notin]

no, Lackey himself never said this. publicly at least. that's what agents are for. and yes, his agent absolutely indicated to the Boston Red Sox that his client would retire instead of playing for the minimum for the Boston Red Sox.

 

Was there ever a story about this? I looked around and never found anything. On one hand, it would explain what otherwise was a stupid trade. On the other hand, Lackey did play for the minimum in St. Louis...

[notin]

If that actually happened they should have called his bluff. I really don't believe a guy as competitive as Lackey would have stopped playing baseball for the sake of a spiteful disagreement. He and his agent agreed to the damn contract in the first place and he did get paid a lot of money while he was playing injured and recovering from surgery.

 

Very true.

 

Doubtful Lackey would have sat out for a year and tried to come back later. Because if he did that, he probably would have had to sign for that same league minimum. ..

[Slasher9]

Was there ever a story about this? I looked around and never found anything. On one hand, it would explain what otherwise was a stupid trade. On the other hand, Lackey did play for the minimum in St. Louis...

 

I cannot supply you a link for a reporter writing a story on this. All i can offer you is that i know it is true. yes, he did 100% play for the minimum in St Louis. but his agent 100% told the Red Sox that he would not play for the Red Sox for the minimum. and the Red Sox traded him for what they thought was the best they could get. maybe we over valued Kelly. i think if the front office could turn back the clock they would not have done the trade and called him on the bluff. but at the time it was the right move to make.

[harmony]

I cannot supply you a link for a reporter writing a story on this. All i can offer you is that i know it is true. yes, he did 100% play for the minimum in St Louis. but his agent 100% told the Red Sox that he would not play for the Red Sox for the minimum. and the Red Sox traded him for what they thought was the best they could get. maybe we over valued Kelly. i think if the front office could turn back the clock they would not have done the trade and called him on the bluff. but at the time it was the right move to make.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/10/09/what-red-sox-kept-john-lackey-and-jon-lester/UFlbt7toI3HEZdPhpFeU0K/story.html

 

No mention of a threat to forego playing for the Red Sox at minimum salary.

[moonslav59]

I never expected relief pitching to cost as much as it has in recent years. Was it just all bad timing? Back when our farm was full, I expected a trade for a cost-controlled TOTR SP ( like Sale, but maybe not Sale). I thought that was the first thing to focus on and then worry about our BP. And with every trade that came along, I kept hearing "it's only one trade" or "can't keep all your prospects", "DD's not destroying the farm" etc. Even though I thought pieces like Margot and Guerra were great resources to help net a us the bigger prize, a cost-controlled TOTR SP. I thought every chip mattered (and I still do) and that every chip thrown in on a deal that wasn't for a top SP was one less chip or optional chip we'd have when the time came to make the real splash. I'm just mentioning all this for clarity on the Sale trade and further depletion of the farm. If we traded for a top SP like Sale first, would our farm look any different today? Or, looking at how RP costs have risen even further, would out farm look worse?

 

There were other options at the time we traded for Kimbrel. Some went on to do fine, some ok, some sucked-- all were cheaper options than Kimbrel, at the time.

 

From all indications, trading for Sale a year or two ago would have cost way more than it did recently, so it's hard to argue with the timing of that deal. I doubt we win a ring in 2015 or 2016 with an ace added, but someone like Bogey, Betts or JBj subtracted.

 

The Kimbrel deal looks better now, despite his struggles, because of sky-rocketing RP'er salaries, but he wasn't the only solution to building up our pen. He was a big splash name, like Price and Sale...something DD seems to value highly.

[Slasher9]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/10/09/what-red-sox-kept-john-lackey-and-jon-lester/UFlbt7toI3HEZdPhpFeU0K/story.html

 

No mention of a threat to forego playing for the Red Sox at minimum salary.

 

Hill, i never said that the boston globe reported that.

[moonslav59]

Hill, i never said that the boston globe reported that.

 

Hard to imagine that if this really was factual, it wouldn't have been reported everywhere and dissected to death.

 

All I heard was a rumor that his agent said he "might" retire rather than play for the minimum. That's how I remember it. No mention of a 100% ultimatum.

[Bellhorn04]

There were other options at the time we traded for Kimbrel. Some went on to do fine, some ok, some sucked-- all were cheaper options than Kimbrel, at the time.

 

From all indications, trading for Sale a year or two ago would have cost way more than it did recently, so it's hard to argue with the timing of that deal. I doubt we win a ring in 2015 or 2016 with an ace added, but someone like Bogey, Betts or JBj subtracted.

 

The Kimbrel deal looks better now, despite his struggles, because of sky-rocketing RP'er salaries, but he wasn't the only solution to building up our pen. He was a big splash name, like Price and Sale...something DD seems to value highly.

 

'Big splash names' is kind of derogatory, isn't it? Kimbrel, Price and Sale are all legitimate top-of-the-line talents. Was Manny Ramirez also a 'big splash name'?

 

I tend to think of Crawford and Panda as the 'big splash names' because they seem to have been too much about selling tickets and not enough about improving the team.

[moonslav59]

'Big splash names' is kind of derogatory, isn't it? Kimbrel, Price and Sale are all legitimate top-of-the-line talents. Was Manny Ramirez also a 'big splash name'?

 

I tend to think of Crawford and Panda as the 'big splash names' because they seem to have been too much about selling tickets and not enough about improving the team.

 

I didn't mean it as derogatory. Yes, I view Manny, Lackey, Schilling, CC, HanRam and Panda as "big splash" too.

[SoxnCycles]

I'm sure they do. The idea that the team doesn't seem too concerned with the long term is a little disconcerting to me.

 

I'm sure DD will have no problem restocking the farm system.

Although he has no history of doing so.

Even though most of the scouting dept has defected, how tough can it be?

[Slasher9]

I'm sure DD will have no problem restocking the farm system.

Although he has no history of doing so.

Even though most of the scouting dept has defected, how tough can it be?

 

well played.

[moonslav59]

I'm sure DD will have no problem restocking the farm system.

Although he has no history of doing so.

Even though most of the scouting dept has defected, how tough can it be?

 

...and within tougher rules for winning and richer teams.

[Kimmi]

Well - it is too bad you think that my disagreeing with you is taking a shot at you. And it is really too bad that you think that I have disrespected you. I don't even know you. I guess probably when i feel provoked I can get a little carried away as well. When i voice my opinion, i will preface it with that expression. i'm a pretty good listener and reader as well. This is a talksox forum board which I guess means a lot more to you then it does to me. I don't voice many of my opinions here very strongly because they are just opinions. I might be wrong. I'm ok with that. Believe me there is o backdown in me when it comes to something that really matters. This really doesn't. Most of the time I have fun trying to share viewpoint and thoughts here. This type of conversation isn't much fun.

 

You can disagree with me all you want. You don't have to insult my ability to understand something in the process.

 

Read this post of yours from a couple of days ago, especially the bold part, and tell me what you think about it.

 

This seems to be a damn difficult concept for some people to understand. Your best players play. That is just the way it is. All things being equal - everybody healthy - best players play. In basketball, you actually might be able to convince a kid that coming off the bench makes your team stronger by telling him that it is more important who is on the floor when the game ends as opposed to when it starts. That kid probably gets more pt than someone you choose to start. Not the same in baseball. There is nothing wrong with rewarding someone who is a better player. Being fair means running an intramural program. Don't think that flies.

[Kimmi]

Yes, and we both were big Ben supporters to the end.

 

I hope we win 1-2 rings in the next 3-4 years, but I'm prepared to have some lean years afterwards.

 

I realize I may be surprised, if DD is able to rebuild the farm in 3 years, but I see no evidence to believe it can or will happen.

 

DD never did it before, and the times have gotten more difficult that ever before. That's a double whammy we have to overcome.

 

I'm not crying over our situation. I'm not losing sleep with worry, but I find myself having to respond to those who want to look at our extended future through rose colored glasses.

 

I have always been a big believer in the philosophy by which Ben and Theo ran the organization.

 

Pretty much everyone understands how important the farm system is.

[Kimmi]

3. We already blew extending Lester (thanks LL) so he was going to FA. the smart move was to trade him at the deadline and then try and resign him in FA.

4. Lackey's people already leaked that no way on god's green earth would he play for the Boston Red Sox for the league minimum the next season. the smart move was to trade him at the deadline.

 

I agree on both counts.

[cp176]

I think that it is a very accurate statement. Best players play. If you were insulted by anything here then obviously you think that I was specifically intending it for you. I wasn't. It was somewhat of a generalization based on a discussion which I will stand behind.

[Kimmi]

I'm sure DD will have no problem restocking the farm system.

Although he has no history of doing so.

Even though most of the scouting dept has defected, how tough can it be?

 

LOL

 

Dude, you need to post more often.

[Kimmi]

I think that it is a very accurate statement. Best players play. If you were insulted by anything here then obviously you think that I was specifically intending it for you. I wasn't. It was somewhat of a generalization based on a discussion which I will stand behind.

 

That's fine if you don't see anything wrong with your post. But then don't make comments about other people's posts, which are no different than yours, because it comes across as hypocritical.

[cp176]

That's fine if you don't see anything wrong with your post. But then don't make comments about other people's posts, which are no different than yours, because it comes across as hypocritical.

 

You don't have to worry about me being hypocritical at all. I probably will continue to post as I wish much like you do I'm sure.

[Kimmi]

You don't have to worry about me being hypocritical at all. I probably will continue to post as I wish much like you do I'm sure.

 

I'm not going to worry about it at all.

 

But if you call me nasty for responding to your post in the same way that you posted, I'm going to call you on it.

[cp176]

I'm not going to worry about it at all.

 

But if you call me nasty for responding to your post in the same way that you posted, I'm going to call you on it.

 

Well then I guess we see things the same way. I'll do the same.

[Spudboy]

You don't have to worry about me being hypocritical at all. I probably will continue to post as I wish much like you do I'm sure.

 

Atta boy.

[moonslav59]

I have always been a big believer in the philosophy by which Ben and Theo ran the organization.

 

Pretty much everyone understands how important the farm system is.

 

I found it very enlightening to hear what Theo had to say about his time in Boston, particularly on the mistakes he made as time went by, and then to see how he has applied his learnings to how he constructed the Cubs... with a balanced approach.

[Spudboy]

I found it very enlightening to hear what Theo had to say about his time in Boston, particularly on the mistakes he made as time went by, and then to see how he has applied his learnings to how he constructed the Cubs... with a balanced approach.

 

A balanced approach and a big check book.

[moonslav59]

A balanced approach and a big check book.

 

That certainly helps a lot, even when you swing a miss a few too many times!

[mvp 78]

Everything that was great - thanks Ben!

 

Everything that sucked - that was all Larry Lucchino!