Sox get Sale

[moonslav59]

Would that involve someone whose name starts with Q and rhymes with 'Iguana'?

 

Yes, he might have traded for Q-iguana and Thornburg and signed Cueto and EE, but no Kimbrell or Espi.

[cp176]

Not surprising since, with one notable exception, Ben's years as GM were not very good ones, and Dombrowski's style is built to win favor with fans who prefer flashy, exciting moves over a more patient, cautious approach. It's evident that we have some people here who couldn't care less about prospects or the farm system or much beyond the immediate future (I don't say that to be insulting, but it's what I see in some of the posts I read), which translates into a lot of DD love.

 

There's no denying that Dombrowski has set us up quite well for the next several years, but the real test of his mettle will come down the line when Cherington's players and the others he acquired by trading Cherington's players are going into free agency and he's run out of Cherington prospects to trade. As it stands, this is still very much a team with Ben's fingerprints all over it, whether people want to admit it or not.

 

I haven't seen one post as of yet that tells me that there are fans here who have absolutely no regard for our farm system . I also can't see where this idea of caring for nothing more than the immediate future comes from. It looks to me that for some posters there may not be any room for a middle ground. That feeling has been primarily projected by the people who have opposed most of DD's moves and have considered them a sell out of the farm. If you are a fan of the Sox and post here, its my bet that you care deeply for the franchise in general. Any time prospects are traded it takes something away from the farm. I tend to think that with time our minor league system will be rebuilt. The crystal ball to the future says that anyone's opinions are as solid as anyone elses. This really isn't a situation where if you don't agree with someone else then you are wrong.

[moonslav59]

I haven't seen one post as of yet that tells me that there are fans here who have absolutely no regard for our farm system . I also can't see where this idea of caring for nothing more than the immediate future comes from. It looks to me that for some posters there may not be any room for a middle ground. That feeling has been primarily projected by the people who have opposed most of DD's moves and have considered them a sell out of the farm. If you are a fan of the Sox and post here, its my bet that you care deeply for the franchise in general. Any time prospects are traded it takes something away from the farm. I tend to think that with time our minor league system will be rebuilt. The crystal ball to the future says that anyone's opinions are as solid as anyone elses. This really isn't a situation where if you don't agree with someone else then you are wrong.

 

Good post.

 

I do think there is a pretty wide spectrum on a couple points of debate:

 

1) Can a weak or strong farm on paper even have strong predictive power?

 

2) Can we rebuild the farm to a decent level under the new system in place?

 

We hear a lot of, "we'll deal with the farm problem or replacing our stars when the time comes" with no specifics on how it can be done, except for vague assertions that Henry can open his wallet, or we have three years of draft picks to rebuild the farm.

 

I know the flip side is equally vague. It's hard for us supporters of keeping a balance to prove Espi or Kopech or Basabe would be helpful from 4-9 years out.

 

We all want the same thing, but we have different views of how out present and future might look like had we not done all these deals.

[Kimmi]

I think everyone liked Ben. It's the march towards second consecutive last place finish that ended his career. Of course having his one hand tied behind his back when it came to signing 30+ something, tons of mileage free agent starting pitchers, did him no favors.

 

No, there are some here who do not like him.

 

And yes, Ben did have his hands somewhat tied when it came to signing an aging starting pitcher. However, I'm not sure that Ben really disagree with that notion.

[Kimmi]

And the Red Sox have their own analysts, who, I expect, put much more work more on projections for our team than any of the freelance analysts do.

 

I'm sure they do. The idea that the team doesn't seem too concerned with the long term is a little disconcerting to me.

[Kimmi]

He had his good points and bad ones, much like any GM. I didn't like that he never traded any prospects, but then I also don't like Dombrowski's approach of trading them all

 

Like Moon, I am pretty sure that Cherington would have made some moves last year if given the chance.

[Kimmi]

Not surprising since, with one notable exception, Ben's years as GM were not very good ones, and Dombrowski's style is built to win favor with fans who prefer flashy, exciting moves over a more patient, cautious approach. It's evident that we have some people here who couldn't care less about prospects or the farm system or much beyond the immediate future (I don't say that to be insulting, but it's what I see in some of the posts I read), which translates into a lot of DD love.

 

There's no denying that Dombrowski has set us up quite well for the next several years, but the real test of his mettle will come down the line when Cherington's players and the others he acquired by trading Cherington's players are going into free agency and he's run out of Cherington prospects to trade. As it stands, this is still very much a team with Ben's fingerprints all over it, whether people want to admit it or not.

 

Excellent post Jack. Thank you.

 

I hope that Dombrowski pleasantly surprises me with regard to replenishing the farm.

[Kimmi]

You can certainly improve your odds of being a competitive team 5 and 10 years down the road by acquiring and keeping near and far away top prospects.

 

Theo and Ben did the acquiring part of the equation, which is the hard part.

 

Keeping a balance was entrusted to DD, and he decided to go for broke at the expense of seriously weakening our extended outlook.

 

We'll find out 4-10 years from now, and I don't want to hear any crap about how "we don't know if these ex-Sox players playing allstar baseball elsewhere would be doing that for us had we kept them."

 

The same way we view the AGon trade differently years later as Rizzo has become a star, and Rizzo wasn't even projected to be as great as several guys we have traded in the last 13 months.

 

The HanRam/Sanchez- Beckett/Lowell trade was different, as we all expected HanRam to become something special, but it was still "speculative" to some extent, and the fact that he and Anibal went on to have some very good to great seasons does make that trade look more questionable than it did at the time and after our 2007 ring. A ring in the next 3 years will certainly make viewing these recent trades in a much different light down the road, but if we fail to win a ring, DD will probably be gone and someone else will have to pick up the pieces.

 

 

Well said Moon.

 

You and I are in complete agreement on this topic.

[Kimmi]

would that involve someone whose name starts with q and rhymes with 'iguana'?

 

lol

[Kimmi]

I haven't seen one post as of yet that tells me that there are fans here who have absolutely no regard for our farm system . I also can't see where this idea of caring for nothing more than the immediate future comes from. It looks to me that for some posters there may not be any room for a middle ground. That feeling has been primarily projected by the people who have opposed most of DD's moves and have considered them a sell out of the farm. If you are a fan of the Sox and post here, its my bet that you care deeply for the franchise in general. Any time prospects are traded it takes something away from the farm. I tend to think that with time our minor league system will be rebuilt. The crystal ball to the future says that anyone's opinions are as solid as anyone elses. This really isn't a situation where if you don't agree with someone else then you are wrong.

 

1. Maybe the impression that some people have no regard for the farm system come from all the posts of people saying that they don't care about 2021 and that they're not going to worry about it?

 

2. It's funny how you and I read the same posts in the same forum, and you feel that the people who have no room for a middle ground are posters who have been opposed to Dombrowski's moves, while I see it as the people who really like his moves are the ones who have no room for a middle ground.

 

3. The only opinion that I said was wrong was Jacko's statement that we could say eff the farm system, and I stand by that. We can't do that. And if you think we can do that, then you are contradicting your own point.

[Spudboy]

No, there are some here who do not like him.

 

And yes, Ben did have his hands somewhat tied when it came to signing an aging starting pitcher. However, I'm not sure that Ben really disagree with that notion.

 

My only gripe with Ben was his unexplained disassembly of the rotation. Maybe the owners told him to get rid of Lester and Lackey? I don't think so.

 

He f***ed up. Now we have three TOTR pitchers and some have a problem with that. Well, if Ben had held onto those two big chips I doubt very much he would have been gone.

 

Blame DD for raping the farm all you want. This team had no big guns in the rotation and he addressed that weakness.

 

If DD is at fault for having spent too much to acquire pitching then Ben should share some of the blame.

 

Cause and effect.

[cp176]

1. Maybe the impression that some people have no regard for the farm system come from all the posts of people saying that they don't care about 2021 and that they're not going to worry about it?

 

2. It's funny how you and I read the same posts in the same forum, and you feel that the people who have no room for a middle ground are posters who have been opposed to Dombrowski's moves, while I see it as the people who really like his moves are the ones who have no room for a middle ground.

 

3. The only opinion that I said was wrong was Jacko's statement that we could say eff the farm system, and I stand by that. We can't do that. And if you think we can do that, then you are contradicting your own point.

 

Maybe I'm not talking about you specifically. I don't think that I have said that we could just say f*** the farm system. Since I have never said it, I guess maybe I'm not contradicting any point that you think that I made. I guess. #2. yes that is kind of odd.

Just so you know, the fact that I don't necessarily agree with some of your opinions, doesn't make me less of a fan and it also doesn't make me not respect and read what you write.

As an aside - Do you really believe that if someone thinks that DD really is a better GM than Ben was - which I do- that it means that I didn't like or appreciate the job that Ben did?

[Kimmi]

My only gripe with Ben was his unexplained disassembly of the rotation. Maybe the owners told him to get rid of Lester and Lackey? I don't think so.

 

He f***ed up. Now we have three TOTR pitchers and some have a problem with that. Well, if Ben had held onto those two big chips I doubt very much he would have been gone.

 

Blame DD for raping the farm all you want. This team had no big guns in the rotation and he addressed that weakness.

 

If DD is at fault for having spent too much to acquire pitching then Ben should share some of the blame.

 

Cause and effect.

 

I don't think anyone has a problem with having 3 big guns in the rotation. Everyone is thrilled with that.

 

There are two things that had Ben's hands somewhat tied behind his back.

 

1. Larry Lucchino - Ben was not given full autonomy.

2. Henry was strongly against signing a 30+ year old free agent pitcher to a large contract. He did an about face on that once he hired Dombrowski.

[iortiz]

Not sure how can you compare or put in the same sentence DD and Ben. DD's hierarchy as GM is ten light years above. As you said, Ben was just a puppet. LL was the main responsible, for the good and for the bad. LL and DD on the other hand, are at the same level.

[Kimmi]

Maybe I'm not talking about you specifically. I don't think that I have said that we could just say f*** the farm system. Since I have never said it, I guess maybe I'm not contradicting any point that you think that I made. I guess. #2. yes that is kind of odd.

Just so you know, the fact that I don't necessarily agree with some of your opinions, doesn't make me less of a fan and it also doesn't make me not respect and read what you write.

As an aside - Do you really believe that if someone thinks that DD really is a better GM than Ben was - which I do- that it means that I didn't like or appreciate the job that Ben did?

 

I have never remotely said or implied that you are less of a fan because your opinions are not in sync with mine.

 

I state my opinions strongly because I strongly believe in them. I don't form my opinions lightly, and it's unlikely that I'm going to back down from them. I realize that they are just my opinions, as I realize that when I say something like Dombrowski is wrong that it is just my opinion. I am not going to preface every statement that I make with 'IMO'.

 

I try very hard to respond to other posters respectfully because I know that everyone has a right to his or her opinions and I do respect them and that right. Much to my dismay, I am not above getting snarky now and then, but that is usually in response to a shot taken at me first, whether directly or indirectly.

 

Just so you know, when you take a shot at me or an opinion of mine, it feels an awful lot like disrespect.

[cp176]

I have never remotely said or implied that you are less of a fan because your opinions are not in sync with mine.

 

I state my opinions strongly because I strongly believe in them. I don't form my opinions lightly, and it's unlikely that I'm going to back down from them. I realize that they are just my opinions, as I realize that when I say something like Dombrowski is wrong that it is just my opinion. I am not going to preface every statement that I make with 'IMO'.

 

I try very hard to respond to other posters respectfully because I know that everyone has a right to his or her opinions and I do respect them and that right. Much to my dismay, I am not above getting snarky now and then, but that is usually in response to a shot taken at me first, whether directly or indirectly.

 

Just so you know, when you take a shot at me or an opinion of mine, it feels an awful lot like disrespect.

 

Well - it is too bad you think that my disagreeing with you is taking a shot at you. And it is really too bad that you think that I have disrespected you. I don't even know you. I guess probably when i feel provoked I can get a little carried away as well. When i voice my opinion, i will preface it with that expression. i'm a pretty good listener and reader as well. This is a talksox forum board which I guess means a lot more to you then it does to me. I don't voice many of my opinions here very strongly because they are just opinions. I might be wrong. I'm ok with that. Believe me there is o backdown in me when it comes to something that really matters. This really doesn't. Most of the time I have fun trying to share viewpoint and thoughts here. This type of conversation isn't much fun.

[moonslav59]

Well said Moon.

 

You and I are in complete agreement on this topic.

 

Yes, and we both were big Ben supporters to the end.

 

I hope we win 1-2 rings in the next 3-4 years, but I'm prepared to have some lean years afterwards.

 

I realize I may be surprised, if DD is able to rebuild the farm in 3 years, but I see no evidence to believe it can or will happen.

 

DD never did it before, and the times have gotten more difficult that ever before. That's a double whammy we have to overcome.

 

I'm not crying over our situation. I'm not losing sleep with worry, but I find myself having to respond to those who want to look at our extended future through rose colored glasses.

[a700hitter]

I'm sure they do. The idea that the team doesn't seem too concerned with the long term is a little disconcerting to me.

That is a pessimistic outlook, especially since you don't know what the organization's plans are to replenish the farm system with prospects, and from what I understand we still have some pretty good prospects.

[a700hitter]

Yes, and we both were big Ben supporters to the end.

 

I hope we win 1-2 rings in the next 3-4 years, but I'm prepared to have some lean years afterwards.

 

I realize I may be surprised, if DD is able to rebuild the farm in 3 years, but I see no evidence to believe it can or will happen.

 

DD never did it before, and the times have gotten more difficult that ever before. That's a double whammy we have to overcome.

 

I'm not crying over our situation. I'm not losing sleep with worry, but I find myself having to respond to those who want to look at our extended future through rose colored glasses.

He is spending his time helping ruin the competitiveness of the Blue Jays. Maybe you should follow him on Twitter.

[moonslav59]

That is a pessimistic outlook, especially since you don't know what the organization's plans are to replenish the farm system with prospects, and from what I understand we still have some pretty good prospects.

 

Plans to replenish the farm. That's a good one!

 

Kinda like Trump's secret plan to defeat ISIS.

[a700hitter]

Plans to replenish the farm. That's a good one!

 

Kinda like Trump's secret plan to defeat ISIS.

I think it would be more appropriately likened to Obama's promise of "shovel ready" jobs.

[moonslav59]

I think it would be more appropriately likened to Obama's promise of "shovel ready" jobs.

 

Either analogy is appropriate.

[Slasher9]

I don't think anyone has a problem with having 3 big guns in the rotation. Everyone is thrilled with that.

 

There are two things that had Ben's hands somewhat tied behind his back.

 

1. Larry Lucchino - Ben was not given full autonomy.

2. Henry was strongly against signing a 30+ year old free agent pitcher to a large contract. He did an about face on that once he hired Dombrowski.

 

3. We already blew extending Lester (thanks LL) so he was going to FA. the smart move was to trade him at the deadline and then try and resign him in FA.

4. Lackey's people already leaked that no way on god's green earth would he play for the Boston Red Sox for the league minimum the next season. the smart move was to trade him at the deadline.

[Bellhorn04]

3. We already blew extending Lester (thanks LL) so he was going to FA. the smart move was to trade him at the deadline and then try and resign him in FA.

4. Lackey's people already leaked that no way on god's green earth would he play for the Boston Red Sox for the league minimum the next season. the smart move was to trade him at the deadline.

 

The offer to Lester may have come from LL, but Ben's only public comments on the matter indicated that he was fully on board with it. He complained about the fact that Lester and his agents didn't respond to the offer. So he has to wear it too.

[notin]

OK, but let's be consistent. You're soft-selling what happened to Ben by saying he quit. He quit after being replaced as the primary baseball ops decision maker by Dombrowski and being offered to stay only in a reduced capacity.

 

Not soft selling. Dombrowski was brought in to replace Lucchino, not Cherington, presumably because Dombrowski had worked gor Henry previously. However, Dombrowski wanted a more active role in roster decisions, and Ben didn't like the new direction for his role.

[Bellhorn04]

Not soft selling. Dombrowski was brought in to replace Lucchino, not Cherington, presumably because Dombrowski had worked gor Henry previously. However, Dombrowski wanted a more active role in roster decisions, and Ben didn't like the new direction for his role.

 

Come on notin, gimme a break. Don't play around with official job titles. Dombrowski was replacing Ben as the decision-maker, that's the point. I expect they knew Ben would quit.

[notin]

4. Lackey's people already leaked that no way on god's green earth would he play for the Boston Red Sox for the league minimum the next season. the smart move was to trade him at the deadline.

 

Did this really actually happen? Ive searched around and never found any stories where Lackey himself said thus.

 

Ken Rosenthal wrote an article that stated retiring was Lackey's only leverage, but Rosenthal also stated an extension was a good solution for both parties. Then lazy and stupid writers like Tony Massarotti started citing Rosenthal for reporting Lackey himself threatening to retire over playing for the minimum...

[Emp9]

Massarotti is the worst. So whiney. So entitled.

[Slasher9]

Did this really actually happen? Ive searched around and never found any stories where Lackey himself said thus.

 

Ken Rosenthal wrote an article that stated retiring was Lackey's only leverage, but Rosenthal also stated an extension was a good solution for both parties. Then lazy and stupid writers like Tony Massarotti started citing Rosenthal for reporting Lackey himself threatening to retire over playing for the minimum...

 

no, Lackey himself never said this. publicly at least. that's what agents are for. and yes, his agent absolutely indicated to the Boston Red Sox that his client would retire instead of playing for the minimum for the Boston Red Sox.

[Emp9]

Plans to replenish the farm. That's a good one!

 

Kinda like Trump's secret plan to defeat ISIS.

 

Ha! A sneak attack, take them by surprise!... 'cause ya' know, apparently it's really easy to sneak up on someone who lives in a f***ing desert.