Theo Epstein; Greatest Baseball Executive Ever

[moonslav59]

In this case, I think it does make a huge difference. Theo had a 5 year plan and the plan worked perfectly. He stripped that team down and rebuilt it more or less from the ground up. This is a case where Theo was clearly THE man in charge of the decisions and the plan, and a case where he did not inherit an already good team that he just improved. And the team he built should be very good for the foreseeable future.

 

IMO, what he did with the Cubs is phenomenal and unmatched.

 

Nobody else has built a winner from scratch in 5 years?

[Kimmi]

Nobody else has built a winner from scratch in 5 years?

 

Not for a team who hasn't been able to win in over 100 years.

[Bellhorn04]

Nobody else has built a winner from scratch in 5 years?

 

Put yourself to the test, moon, find that comp for us!

[moonslav59]

Put yourself to the test, moon, find that comp for us!

 

How about just reading about article I provided and clikcing on the top GMs listed?

 

http://sabr.org/latest/armour-and-levitt-best-25-gms-baseball-history

 

Branch Rickey? He's the consensus best of all-time, at least before Theo's Cub championship. He nearly did it twice.

 

The Cardinals had last won a WS in 1886. They hadn't made the WS in 36 years. They moved Rickey into the GM role in 1925 after a 65-89 record in 1924. Here's how quick he built a winner:

1925: 77-76

1926: 89-65 WS Champions.

They made the WS in 4 of the next 8 years (winning 2). From 1926 to 1946 the Cardinals won nine pennants and six World Series.

 

He then took over the Dodgers, and although they had just won 104 games, the war devastated a roster full of mostly over-aged players.

1943: 81-72

1944: 63-91

1945: 87-67

1946: 90-60(signed Jackie Robinson before season)

1947: 94-60 Lost WS

He was squeezed out of the GM job soon afterwards, but the Dodgers went on to win with the team he built.

 

He then went to Pitt and built a team by acquiring Roberto Clemente (another first) and many others. He left the team, but the won a ring 5 years later.

He joined the Cards again as a senior adviser in 1962 after an 80-74 season. Then...

1962: 84-78

1963: 93-69

1964: 93-69 Won WS

(He was not technically the GM though.) The team went on to win in 1967 after he left.

 

#2 on their list is Pat Gillick. He first built an expansion team itno a team that won 86 or more games for 11 straight seasons- finally winning a ring in 1992 (after 16 years).He was not there for the ring.

 

He then joined Baltimore, where they won the ALCS twice- their only two playoff appearances in 20 years.

 

In Seattle, he traded away and lost to free agency their two best players, but the team won over 90 games all 4 years he was there.

 

Finally, he took over the Phillies and in 3 years they won a ring...their first in 28 years!

 

 

Then, there's ED Barrow at #3.

 

He took over a team (the Yankees) who had never even won a pennant. By 1921, they won their first. The Yanks won 13 more pennants and 10 WS under his leadership.

 

Let's look at #4 Bob Howsam. He was put in charge of the Cards and after the 1965 club fell to seventh place, Howsam traded three aging regulars — Bill White, Dick Groat, and Ken Boyer — very popular players who Howsam correctly believed were near the end of the road. In early 1966 he acquired Orlando Cepeda from the Giants, and after the season picked up Roger Maris from the Yankees. Maris and Cepeda became the number three and four hitters for the club that won the next two pennants and the 1967 World Series.

But by that time, Howsam had moved on to Cincinnati. In 1971 a number of Reds had off-years, and the team fell to 79-83 and a tie for fourth. Howsam and Anderson determined that they needed more team speed to return to the top. In December 1971, Howsam pulled off his most famous deal, trading Lee May, second baseman Tommy Helms, and utilityman Jimmie Stewart to the Astros for second baseman Joe Morgan, infielder Denis Menke, outfielders Cesar Geronimo and Ed Armbrister, and pitcher Jack Billingham. Billingham and Geronimo were key members of the upcoming teams, while Morgan, an unappreciated star in Houston, became the best player in baseball. Howsam also added outfielder George Foster and pitcher Tom Hall through trades in 1971.

 

It was the Morgan trade that turned the Reds from a good team to one of the best teams ever. Over the next five years (1972-76) the Reds won 502 games, four division titles and two World Series.

 

 

#6 John Schuerholz.

 

The KC Royals were under .500 in 1981. The team won it's first WS ever in 1985 ...in just 5 years being there.

 

He joined the Atlanta Braves after the 1990 last place season (65-97).

His first year, he got them to the WS! (94-68)

The next year, 98-64, the lost the WS again. They went 104-58 in 1993, but lost in the NLCS. After an off year in 1994, they won the WS in his 5th year in 1995. Although they never won a ring again, they won their division 10 straight years after their WS win.

 

#8 Harry Dalton

He took over a very good Orioles team, but he then traded for Frank Robinson who went on to win a triple crown. They won in his first year (1966). The Orioles fell back in 1967, largely due to injuries to Robinson, Jim Palmer and Dave McNally. When the club failed to rebound adequately in 1968, reaching the All-Star break at 43-37, Dalton fired manager Hank Bauer and gave the job to Earl Weaver, who had spent many years in the organization as a Minor League manager. Weaver was not shy about making changes, playing Don Buford (a great Dalton acquisition) and Ellie Hendricks, and taught the Oriole Way that Dalton had long championed in the minors.

 

After the 1968 season Dalton traded outfielder Curt Blefary to Houston for pitcher Mike Cuellar, who won 125 games over the next six seasons. The next three years the Orioles won over 100 games, waltzed to division titles, and swept the ALCS. That they only were able to win one World Series masked how great this team was. So good, in fact, that Dalton only had to make one trade of note — he dealt some unneeded players to the Padres for Pat Dobson, who won 20 games in 1971. In six years Dalton won four pennants and two World Series in Baltimore.

 

He then went to the Angels and made some big moves to turn that team around, but they never won a ring. He then went to Milwaukee, where the team had never had a winning season. They were 67-95 the year before he took over, then they went...

93-69

95-66

86-76

62-47 (lost DS)

95-67 Won WS in 5th year

 

You see, it's happened before... many times.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by moonslav59

[Spudboy]

Holy s*** what a post Moon.

[Bellhorn04]

OK, other GM's have built championship teams in 5 years.

 

I guess it all comes down to how much weight you put on the 'curse breaker' thing. I think Red Sox fans are in a pretty good position to say that we do put a lot of weight on that thing. You often hear this in comments about Big Papi - part of what makes him such a legendary figure to us is his big role in breaking the curse. Also Schilling, coming to Boston, virtually with that express purpose delivering the ring, and getting it done.

 

When Theo went to the Cubs that franchise and that fandom were looking to him to break their curse, and he delivered, and the way he put this championship Cubs team together was a thing of beauty.

[Spudboy]

OK, other GM's have built championship teams in 5 years.

 

I guess it all comes down to how much weight you put on the 'curse breaker' thing. I think Red Sox fans are in a pretty good position to say that we do put a lot of weight on that thing. You often hear this in comments about Big Papi - part of what makes him such a legendary figure to us is his big role in breaking the curse. Also Schilling, coming to Boston, virtually with that express purpose delivering the ring, and getting it done.

 

When Theo went to the Cubs that franchise and that fandom were looking to him to break their curse, and he delivered, and the way he put this championship Cubs team together was a thing of beauty.

 

Right. And he did it with us watching in real time. Which is my point. It was important to us and we witnessed it.

 

I doubt many people here were witness to the exploits of the old time GMs.

 

It's a really good story.

[moonslav59]

OK, other GM's have built championship teams in 5 years.

 

I guess it all comes down to how much weight you put on the 'curse breaker' thing. I think Red Sox fans are in a pretty good position to say that we do put a lot of weight on that thing. You often hear this in comments about Big Papi - part of what makes him such a legendary figure to us is his big role in breaking the curse. Also Schilling, coming to Boston, virtually with that express purpose delivering the ring, and getting it done.

 

When Theo went to the Cubs that franchise and that fandom were looking to him to break their curse, and he delivered, and the way he put this championship Cubs team together was a thing of beauty.

 

From a fans perspective, breaking a curse is huge, but to me, I became a Sox fan in 1971, so I went 43 years without a seeing a ring- other went much less. I'm not why the 40 years before makes much difference.

 

My point was that others have done it, some more than once, plus they won way more total championships, so I can't say that Theo is clearly the best of all time.

 

He's the best I've seen, and that should be good enough for any of us to say.

 

[mvp 78]

What's harder to do: win a WS with a large market team like the Sox or Cubbies, or getting an annual also ran like the Rays to win a WS?

[moonslav59]

What's harder to do: win a WS with a large market team like the Sox or Cubbies, or getting an annual also ran like the Rays to win a WS?

 

I'd say, easily, the latter.

 

It might even be harder to get the Rays to the WS than a big spending to team to win one.

[Slasher9]

you dont get my rating as "greatest GM of all time" by taking a small market team to the World Series. You get slasher's rank as GOAT by breaking 194 years of big market team misery whilst also building the team/franchise up to be perennial favorites to win the WS. i do imagine the Cubs will have pretty good odds to make a run at it the next few years. and as we all know the Sox didn't take another 86 years to have another parade.....

[moonslav59]

you dont get my rating as "greatest GM of all time" by taking a small market team to the World Series. You get slasher's rank as GOAT by breaking 194 years of big market team misery whilst also building the team/franchise up to be perennial favorites to win the WS. i do imagine the Cubs will have pretty good odds to make a run at it the next few years. and as we all know the Sox didn't take another 86 years to have another parade.....

 

The question was, "which is harder".

[Slasher9]

the one that took 194 years to do.

[Kimmi]

I'd say, easily, the latter.

 

It might even be harder to get the Rays to the WS than a big spending to team to win one.

 

I bet if Theo had become the GM of the Rays 5 years ago, they'd be set up to have a good chance at a World Series ring. The only reason they might not have won one is because of the randomness of the playoffs.

[Bellhorn04]

I bet if Theo had become the GM of the Rays 5 years ago, they'd be set up to have a good chance at a World Series ring. The only reason they might not have won one is because of the randomness of the playoffs.

 

It's really hard to say. Theo certainly benefitted from being able to sign a few pricy free agents like Lester and Zobrist.

[Kimmi]

It's really hard to say. Theo certainly benefitted from being able to sign a few pricy free agents like Lester and Zobrist.

 

I really don't have any doubt in my mind that he would have built a great team even without the payroll.

[Spudboy]

I bet if Theo had become the GM of the Rays 5 years ago, they'd be set up to have a good chance at a World Series ring. The only reason they might not have won one is because of the randomness of the playoffs.

 

So you think that Boy Wonder could work his magic without the big payroll and revenue.

 

Boy, he would be the best then.

[Spudboy]

I really don't have any doubt in my mind that he would have built a great team even without the payroll.

 

I will agree to the point that Theo's emphasis on building value in the Minors would help. But it's hard to imagine that he could go all the way without big ticket FA signings. After all, he has not done that yet.

[a700hitter]

when you can only build your team with 10 choices instead of 110 choices there is less chance to make the wrong choice.

With less talent available, it shrinks the margin for error and makes the job more difficult. Your argument just doesn't hold water.

[Bellhorn04]

It's pretty hard to compare eras, period. There's so much more parity now.

 

Back then you had a team like the Yankees winning the AL pennant 22 times out of 29 years between 1936 and 1964.

[a700hitter]

It's pretty hard to compare eras, period. There's so much more parity now.

 

Back then you had a team like the Yankees winning the AL pennant 22 times out of 29 years between 1936 and 1964.

In the 17 years after the color line was broken (1947-1963), the Yankees won 10 World Championships and played in 14 of the 17 World Series. Edited November 15, 2016 by a700hitter

[moonslav59]

I bet if Theo had become the GM of the Rays 5 years ago, they'd be set up to have a good chance at a World Series ring. The only reason they might not have won one is because of the randomness of the playoffs.

 

He couldn't have signed Lester or Lackey or Zobrist with the Rays.

[moonslav59]

I really don't have any doubt in my mind that he would have built a great team even without the payroll.

 

Agreed, but a WS is something different.

[moonslav59]

It's pretty hard to compare eras, period. There's so much more parity now.

 

Back then you had a team like the Yankees winning the AL pennant 22 times out of 29 years between 1936 and 1964.

 

So, why isn't that GM the best of alltime?

 

We know why. It's because the system was stacked to allow them to buy everyone and just about anyone they wanted. They had MLB teams acting as their farm system. Could any of those Yankee GMs bring a WS to the rays today? At their salary structure?

[Slasher9]

In the 17 years after the color line was broken (1947-1963), the Yankees won 10 World Championships and played in 14 of the 17 World Series.

 

remind me what year each franchise broke the color barrier. it's not like the entire Negro League was welcome to the MLB in 1947....

[moonslav59]

remind me what year each franchise broke the color barrier. it's not like the entire Negro League was welcome to the MLB in 1947....

 

Elston Howard, NYY 1955.

 

Pumpsie Green, BOS 1959.

 

To count breaking a curse as more important than breaking the color barrier is losing sight of history. Only 2 other teams had a black player on their team 2.5 years later! Only 6 teams had black players by early SEPT 1953!

 

It's quite possible that enormously important things happened before we were born or started watching baseball.

Edited November 15, 2016 by moonslav59

[a700hitter]

remind me what year each franchise broke the color barrier. it's not like the entire Negro League was welcome to the MLB in 1947....

By 1950, there essentially was no Negro League. It was a barnstorming group and no longer a viable league. There was a lot of African American talent in the big leagues by the mid to late 1950's.

 

There was a lot more talent available to GM's after baseball integrated. There is no way that more available talent makes a GMs job more difficult which was your original point.

Edited November 15, 2016 by a700hitter

[moonslav59]

There was a lot of African American talent in the big leagues by the mid to late 1950's.

 

Not really.

 

While 14 teams had a black player by opening day 1957, 3 still did not, and many teams just had one "token" black player. By 1957, the total percent of black players reached 10. I guess you could call that a lot, but it barely reached 15% by 1959, so the growth was slow. It took until 1976 for the percent increase to level off.

 

[Bellhorn04]

I realize this is a debatable point. But I think that a lot of what makes Theo's accomplishment with the Cubs such a great one is the burden of expectations that it was done with. From the moment it was known that he was going to the Cubs, the story was in place - the guy who broke the Red Sox curse is now going to try to do the same for the Cubs! Building a playoff team wasn't really good enough - it was trophy or failure. That's a pretty big ask.

[Slasher9]

By 1950, there essentially was no Negro League. It was a barnstorming group and no longer a viable league. There was a lot of African American talent in the big leagues by the mid to late 1950's.

 

There was a lot more talent available to GM's after baseball integrated. There is no way that more available talent makes a GMs job more difficult which was your original point.

 

give me 1 draft choice and my job is easy. make me pick 1 out of 100 choices and my job is more difficult. how is that too hard for you to understand?