Dombrowski Referendum

[moonslav59]

I wouldnt count on Kopech in 2017. Unless of course he takes a huge step forward and can control and command his pitches, which he really cant yet. Hes got front line potential...right now MLB hitters will light him up. Lets see how he handles advanced hitting at the AA level first.

Best bet is to take their time with him, and Groome. Their development will dictate their rise to the MLB. If Kopech makes enough noise this year they will have to listen. I Just wouldnt expect it this year...

 

He's got great stuff. Maybe ML stuff already but with serious control issues.

 

I'm not counting on him either for 2017, but how many of us expected O'Sullivan to get 4 starts (then Pomeranz 13), when we had what we thought was a very deep SP'er situation: Price, Porcello, ERod, Kelly, Buchholz, Owens, Wright, Johnson, Elias and maybe even a stretched out Barnes. That's 9 or ten guys we had ahead of O'Sullivan, and he was starting for us in early May!

 

I'm not trying to compare O'Sullivan to Kopech. Sean was 28 and had more experience, but if Kopech is doing well, as I expect he will be, then we might see him in August or September, if needed. Hopefully, we won't exhaust all these options by then:

 

Porcello, Price, ERod, Wright, Pomeranz, Buchholz

Owens

Johnson

Elias

Haley

[S5Dewey]

He's got great stuff. Maybe ML stuff already but with serious control issues.

 

I'm not counting on him either for 2017, but how many of us expected O'Sullivan to get 4 starts (then Pomeranz 13), when we had what we thought was a very deep SP'er situation: Price, Porcello, ERod, Kelly, Buchholz, Owens, Wright, Johnson, Elias and maybe even a stretched out Barnes. That's 9 or ten guys we had ahead of O'Sullivan, and he was starting for us in early May!

 

I'm not trying to compare O'Sullivan to Kopech. Sean was 28 and had more experience, but if Kopech is doing well, as I expect he will be, then we might see him in August or September, if needed. Hopefully, we won't exhaust all these options by then:

 

Porcello, Price, ERod, Wright, Pomeranz, Buchholz

Owens

Johnson

Elias

Haley

 

I don't disagree with this at all, but there is a certain risk involved in letting a young pitcher be tried by fire. Every time I think about something like this I think back to Cla Meredith. He had great stuff and was supposed to be a TOR pitcher of the future until he was rushed to the Bigs, got shelled, and was left out there too long. He was never the same after that.

 

Maybe Meredith didn't have the self-confidence to be a major league pitcher and that incident showed it. Or maybe he would have succeeded if he'd been handled differently. I dunno. Players are different. But I do know that suddenly one of out top pitchers was headed for the dumpster and I don't want to see that happen to another one.

[moonslav59]

I don't disagree with this at all, but there is a certain risk involved in letting a young pitcher be tried by fire. Every time I think about something like this I think back to Cla Meredith. He had great stuff and was supposed to be a TOR pitcher of the future until he was rushed to the Bigs, got shelled, and was left out there too long. He was never the same after that.

 

Maybe Meredith didn't have the self-confidence to be a major league pitcher and that incident showed it. Or maybe he would have succeeded if he'd been handled differently. I dunno. Players are different. But I do know that suddenly one of out top pitchers was headed for the dumpster and I don't want to see that happen to another one.

 

Well, Cla was a college player drafted. He only pitched 32 innings his first year in the minors before jumping quickly to AA, AAA and then the majors in just his second year in professional ball. He never started a game at any level. However, he only pitched 3 innings that year with BOS before being traded for Mirabelli.

 

He had a fantastic first season with the Padres: 1.07 ERA and 0.711 WHIP in 51 IP (2006).

 

He never came close to that again.

 

I'm not sure we can blame being rushed for his problems adjusting to MLB. He had a 3.50 ERA at age 24 in 80 IP.

[S5Dewey]

Well, Cla was a college player drafted. He only pitched 32 innings his first year in the minors before jumping quickly to AA, AAA and then the majors in just his second year in professional ball. He never started a game at any level. However, he only pitched 3 innings that year with BOS before being traded for Mirabelli.

 

He had a fantastic first season with the Padres: 1.07 ERA and 0.711 WHIP in 51 IP (2006).

 

He never came close to that again.

 

I'm not sure we can blame being rushed for his problems adjusting to MLB. He had a 3.50 ERA at age 24 in 80 IP.

 

IMO you can't rule out his being rushed. At age 22 in 2005 he pitched in four leagues, High A Wilmington, AA Portland, AAA Pawtucket, and then Boston. He did very well until he hit Pawtucket where he had an ERA of >5.50 in 40 games. I can't imagine why they brought him up then, but there must have been a reason.

 

For some reason I remember the game he imploded - against Seattle. The second game of a DH. 1/3 inning, 2H, 2BB, 3ER, 1 HR (a GS IIRC) and was essentially never heard from again in Boston. I remember thinking, "C'mon.. will you pull this guy for God's sake. He's just a kid. You can't leave him there!"

 

Here's something I didn't remember. Meredith was traded to the Padres for Doug Mirabelli.

[Dojji]

Meredith wasn't exactly an indispensible asset. He had that one great year as a contact pitcher working in the most pitcher friendly park in the league, and beyond that was a pretty average middle reliever. Unfortunately for reality, that one year was enough to get the wangst train rolling about how we shouldn't have given him up for Mirrorbelly, nevermind that Mirrorbelly was a fairly important cog in the machine in 2004 and then again in 2007 and Cla Merediths are a dime and a dozen.

[a700hitter]

Didn't Meredith debut by giving up a game-winning grand slam?

[Dojji]

6 posts discussing the Meredith trade are about 5 posts too many. What a forgettable event, we traded a career-average reliever for a backup catcher when we discovered an unexpected problem with the catching staff that we couldn't easily fix internally. If he hadn't come out the gate strong for SD in 06 it would have been just another nothing trade. The rest of Meredith's career is utterly average.

[mvp 78]

Craig Hansen? Clay Meredith ? Bard and so on. I would take my time with Kopech.

 

I still can't figure out for the life of me why anyone would give two shits about Cla Meredith at this point. He was barely a prospect. The fact that he didn't become a bullpen ace in the majors shouldn't even register as a blip on our radar.

[a700hitter]

I still can't figure out for the life of me why anyone would give two shits about Cla Meredith at this point. He was barely a prospect. The fact that he didn't become a bullpen ace in the majors shouldn't even register as a blip on our radar.

Does anyone else remember him giving up a game winning grand slam in his debut, or am I, in the words of Roger Clemens, misremembering?

[mvp 78]

Does anyone else remember him giving up a game winning grand slam in his debut, or am I, in the words of Roger Clemens, misremembering?

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/wins.aspx?date=2005-05-08&team=Red%20Sox&dh=2

[a700hitter]

http://www.fangraphs.com/wins.aspx?date=2005-05-08&team=Red%20Sox&dh=2

He was a keeper.

[Spudboy]

Does anyone else remember him giving up a game winning grand slam in his debut, or am I, in the words of Roger Clemens, misremembering?

 

I don't remember the details but I seem to remember him getting shelled

 

I'm getting old.

[mvp 78]

I can't believe they broke Cla Meredith by letting him give up that grand slam and then having him go back on the mound the following day. THEY RUINED HIS CAREER!!!!

 

This is not an argument a sane individual would make.

[moonslav59]

IMO you can't rule out his being rushed. At age 22 in 2005 he pitched in four leagues, High A Wilmington, AA Portland, AAA Pawtucket, and then Boston. He did very well until he hit Pawtucket where he had an ERA of >5.50 in 40 games. I can't imagine why they brought him up then, but there must have been a reason.

 

For some reason I remember the game he imploded - against Seattle. The second game of a DH. 1/3 inning, 2H, 2BB, 3ER, 1 HR (a GS IIRC) and was essentially never heard from again in Boston. I remember thinking, "C'mon.. will you pull this guy for God's sake. He's just a kid. You can't leave him there!"

 

Here's something I didn't remember. Meredith was traded to the Padres for Doug Mirabelli.

 

He may have been rushed, and that may have affected his long term career, but it's hard to know for sure.

[S5Dewey]

6 posts discussing the Meredith trade are about 5 posts too many. What a forgettable event, we traded a career-average reliever for a backup catcher when we discovered an unexpected problem with the catching staff that we couldn't easily fix internally. If he hadn't come out the gate strong for SD in 06 it would have been just another nothing trade. The rest of Meredith's career is utterly average.

 

The only things remarkable about him are that he had an ERA of 0.00 in Wilmington and Portland but in SSS's, and that he completely s*** the bed in Seattle in his first outing. Assuming you think a one game ERA of 81 is s***ing the bed. And I do.

 

Hey, it's not like there's anything else to talk about right now!

[mvp 78]

He may have been rushed, and that may have affected his long term career, but it's hard to know for sure.

 

How could it have possibly affected his long term career? He pitched great the following year.

[mvp 78]

The only things remarkable about him are that he had an ERA of 0.00 in Wilmington and Portland but in SSS's, and that he completely s*** the bed in Seattle in his first outing. Assuming you think a one game ERA of 81 is s***ing the bed. And I do.

 

Hey, it's not like there's anything else to talk about right now!

 

The next two games he pitched weren't highlight reels either.

[moonslav59]

How could it have possibly affected his long term career? He pitched great the following year.

 

That's how I see it.

[oldtimer]

Up to the trade for Sale, I was happy with DD. Now I think he has made a bad mistake that will cost the Red Sox for the next few years.

[sk7326]

Up to the trade for Sale, I was happy with DD. Now I think he has made a bad mistake that will cost the Red Sox for the next few years.

 

Moncada fell behind Devers in the org ladder for 3B/COF ... and besides good players cost stuff. The Sox have too good a core not to aim high. Sox did this without giving up Groome, Devers or (most remarkably since I thought the White Sox would want major league help) Rodriguez.

[Dojji]

We didn't lose a single surefire asset. DD doesn't value potential when it's years down the road, and the Chisox are retooling. Perfect trade for both teams considering where they are.

 

WE ARE TRYING TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES people. You keep your powder dry and conserve your prospect pool SO YOU CAN MAKE THESE KINDS OF TRADES THAT INCRASE YOUR CHANCE OF WINNING THE WORLD SERIES! You horde talent so you can use it at the right time. This is the right time to use talent. We are not the Kasas City Royals and can not act like we were the Kansas City Royals. Leveraging that talent to maximize a championship bid is as legitimate a use of that prospect pool as drafting and developing homegrown studs yourself.

 

I'm amazed that we got Sale for the price we got him, I thought major league assets going the other way was absolutely definite. If I'd known that price would bring Sale to Boston I'd have been furious if DD had even hesitated. I thought it was going to be a far bigger boondoggle. I have much more problems with the Thorburg trade than with this trade, because the Thorburg trade arguably created one hole to fill another. This trade was just cashing in on potential to buff the roster in a year when we had every chance to win the Series. I'm glad DD pulled this off and think it will go down in our history as a very important trade.

 

*coughbutwewouldn'thaveneededtomakethistradeifwehadn'tlowballedLestercough*

Edited December 6, 2016 by Dojji

[notin]

I like both these deals, but anyone who ever doubted Dombrowski's reputation for dealing prospects (moon?) should certainly see it is justified. ..

[notin]

Now we just need for Dombrowski to stop taking to Mitch Moreland. After his first two moves today, that would be anticlimactic. It's like starting off a meal with a delicious shrimp cocktail, and following it up with tje perfect streak., and then for dessert serving a healing helping of Mitch Moreland.

[jacksonianmarch]

The way teams are constructed and the way the financial landscape has changed, the most important commodity is young big league talent. The sox hit the jackpot with pre FA talent with the killer B's. You spend around the young core. It was no fluke that NY stopped winning titles once Jorge, Pettitte, Jeter and Bernie got long term deals. While they were still able to spend, there was still a limit. With the sox, they have one too. It's easy to spend big money while your best players make $5 mil or less annually. Once you have to pay Bradley, Betts, Bogaerts etc, you'll be filling in around them will non top tier talent due to financial constraints

[Emp9]

Well, if I may...the Guardians had 2 of their best SPs out when Sox faced them in the playoffs and we still got our asses handed to us. And I don't imagine the Guardians being any easier to beat next season. This Sale trade had to be done. Maybe not to win the east, but to have a fighting chance in the post season. Even though from Boston's perspective, trading Swihart instead of Moncada would've made more sense, but that's nothing we could control, and it's nothing I'll complain about.

[moonslav59]

I like both these deals, but anyone who ever doubted Dombrowski's reputation for dealing prospects (moon?) should certainly see it is justified. ..

 

I've never been against trading top prospects. I've suggested dozens in recent weeks.

 

I didn't like the idea of trading 4 prospects for a RP'er making near FA market money, and I didn't like trading possibly the next Pedro for a number 3 SP'er, but the Kimbrel signing and Price signing look much better now with Sale and Thornburg on board.

I had thought we were trying to play it half way- stay competitive enough to keep fans happy but hurting the future too much to have a real shot then as well.

 

These moves clearly make us a top contender. That makes the Kimbrel deal acceptable to me, and with closer costs going through the roof, $10.5M off the luxury tax is looking pretty good right now for a new closer.

 

I've spent my life dreaming of trades like this. I was just criticized for playing a fantasy baseball GM.

[Jack Flap]

*coughbutwewouldn'thaveneededtomakethistradeifwehadn'tlowballedLestercough*

 

The gift that keeps on giving.

[moonslav59]

The way teams are constructed and the way the financial landscape has changed, the most important commodity is young big league talent. The sox hit the jackpot with pre FA talent with the killer B's. You spend around the young core. It was no fluke that NY stopped winning titles once Jorge, Pettitte, Jeter and Bernie got long term deals. While they were still able to spend, there was still a limit. With the sox, they have one too. It's easy to spend big money while your best players make $5 mil or less annually. Once you have to pay Bradley, Betts, Bogaerts etc, you'll be filling in around them will non top tier talent due to financial constraints

 

The hidden gem in this trade is that although sale will be paid between $12-$14M each of the next 3 years- still a great deal- his luxury tax costs us only $6.5M a year.

 

This value is only a value to a handful of teams up against the luxury tax limit. That's one reason why I thought it made sense for Sale or Quintana to be dealt to us and not some team far away from the luxury tax. Those teams can just sign an ace next year, or they could have last year.

[Emp9]

The way teams are constructed and the way the financial landscape has changed, the most important commodity is young big league talent. The sox hit the jackpot with pre FA talent with the killer B's. You spend around the young core. It was no fluke that NY stopped winning titles once Jorge, Pettitte, Jeter and Bernie got long term deals. While they were still able to spend, there was still a limit. With the sox, they have one too. It's easy to spend big money while your best players make $5 mil or less annually. Once you have to pay Bradley, Betts, Bogaerts etc, you'll be filling in around them will non top tier talent due to financial constraints

 

Sox have a legitimate but limited window. Now's the time to strike.

[notin]

I've never been against trading top prospects. I've suggested dozens in recent weeks.

 

I didn't like the idea of trading 4 prospects for a RP'er making near FA market money, and I didn't like trading possibly the next Pedro for a number 3 SP'er, but the Kimbrel signing and Price signing look much better now with Sale and Thornburg on board.

I had thought we were trying to play it half way- stay competitive enough to keep fans happy but hurting the future too much to have a real shot then as well.

 

These moves clearly make us a top contender. That makes the Kimbrel deal acceptable to me, and with closer costs going through the roof, $10.5M off the luxury tax is looking pretty good right now for a new closer.

 

I've spent my life dreaming of trades like this. I was just criticized for playing a fantasy baseball GM.

 

I never said you were against trading prospects. I questioned if you were the guy asking about Dombrowski's reputation for dealing prospects. Someone did and made me look up his trading history. ..