Looking ahead to 2017

[moonslav59]

I do think that the FO needs to have somebody monitoring his progress regularly, and I think it should be more often than the 1st of every month.

 

I am really hoping that the sting of not playing this season is enough to motivate him to stay on his program for not only the offseason, but the regular season next year as well.

 

I have to think if the guy has a shred of pride somewhere inside him, he'll try to be in much much better shape next year.

 

The one piece of evidence not many Pablo bashers want to talk about is how his former team, widely viewed as a very well managed team, was clearly upset that he took Boston's offer and did not return to SF. They obviously knew his about his character and weight issues but still wanted him back.

 

I'm not counting on Pablo to give us one inning next year, but I'm not counting him out either.

Edited October 17, 2016 by moonslav59

[Dojji]

Thanks for laying that out for me, but IMO, you are still making some unfair assumptions. I am not going to rehash the whole 'Pablo is a lazy bum' argument, but you and others have already counted him out without giving him a chance.

 

That's the thing, Kimmi, a major league baseball team isn't in the business of just GIVING chances. You earn them. And I just explained to you exactly why I don't think that even if you are in the habit of giving charity chances, Pablo should just be handed one on Opening Day.

 

I honestly do think that whatever the final analysis of Pablo is, it will be a kidness to him to break him back into the roster gently, targeting appearances in roughly mid May rather than April and being willing to extend that time table as necessary. Give him those few weeks extra conditioning in the hands of Red Sox trainers just in case there does turn out to be damage to undo, rather than giving him a pass/fail situation right in game 1 no matter how his offseason went. Doing otherwise will just risk a repeat of the same fiasco he had to endure this April and I do not think that's fair to him.

 

If you don't think he deserves another chance, that's fine. If you don't want him on the team, that's fine as well.

 

Neither is the problem in this case. I don't think it would be fair to Sandoval to just pretend the last 2 years didn't happen. His performance dipped severely and that's bad enough, the self-humiliation worse (we all remember The Belt) but my motivation is centered around the injury. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't necessarily mind trying a cold start on Pablo, but the very first thing he did the last time we tried it was immediately injure himself on a routine play. If we try the same tactics again, which I'm honestly surprised you're all for under the circumstances, I'm convinced we'll wind up with the same results.

 

That doesn't change the fact that what would be best for the team would be for Pablo to come back and be successful, whether he ends up playing the season for us or he ends up getting traded. Therefore, I will be pulling for him.

 

I think the best chance for Pablo to come back and be successful is to ease him back into every day play in an extended rehab assignment in MiLB, then ease him back onto the roster when he shows he can handle it, rather than just fling him out there in the highest level of competition immediately and just kind of hope it works. That process might take months but we tried it the quick way last year and the results are what they are.

[Spudboy]

Thanks for laying that out for me, but IMO, you are still making some unfair assumptions. I am not going to rehash the whole 'Pablo is a lazy bum' argument, but you and others have already counted him out without giving him a chance.

 

If you don't think he deserves another chance, that's fine. If you don't want him on the team, that's fine as well.

 

That doesn't change the fact that what would be best for the team would be for Pablo to come back and be successful, whether he ends up playing the season for us or he ends up getting traded. Therefore, I will be pulling for him.

 

I have not given up on him. I agree that it would be best if he came back in decent shape and could provide at least most of what he was in SF.

 

I have little confidence that he will be really good at any aspect of the game but he does deserve a chance and one way or another the Sox are better off he does play well.

 

Got to get something for $95. mil.

[Nick]

I will simply put Pablo on "I'll be pleasantly surprised" if we ever get anything out of him category. Craig, Castillo, Pablo, all dead money.

 

I don't waste one moment thinking about him.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Nick

[moonslav59]

That's the thing, Kimmi, a major league baseball team isn't in the business of just GIVING chances. You earn them. And I just explained to you exactly why I don't think that even if you are in the habit of giving charity chances, Pablo should just be handed one on Opening Day.

 

I'm not making excuses for Pablo, but the guy was enormous when we signed him. We paid him $19M x 5 years. A MLB team is also not "in the business" of disallowing big contract players a chance to comeback from injury and lack of conditioning, especially for a player that was not in good physical condition when they signed him.

 

The real question should be, "why did we sign him in the first place?"

[S5Dewey]

 

The real question should be, "why did we sign him in the first place?"[/b]

 

You know the answer to that as well as I do.

 

The team had finished last for two consecutive years. The Sox FO wanted to keep those Season Ticket Holders signed up so they decided to do something, even if it wasn't right. They could see in their mind's eye all those concession stands selling the Panda Hats and Panda this and Panda that. The guy would be an adequate 3B and the money machine would keep on rolling.

In fairness to them, it didn't seem like it was going to be THIS BAD though.

[moonslav59]

You know the answer to that as well as I do.

 

The team had finished last for two consecutive years. The Sox FO wanted to keep those Season Ticket Holders signed up so they decided to do something, even if it wasn't right. They could see in their mind's eye all those concession stands selling the Panda Hats and Panda this and Panda that. The guy would be an adequate 3B and the money machine would keep on rolling.

In fairness to them, it didn't seem like it was going to be THIS BAD though.

 

I get that and said it at the time. I think Ben looked at boosting the offense in 2015 and the pitching in 2016. The theory was sound. The execution was not.

 

My point is, to me, the fault lies more with Sox management than Pablo. They signed a fat player, then we are supposed to be shocked he came to camp fat and got hurt?

 

I'm very pissed at Pablo, but let's get real. We knew what we were getting.

[Dojji]

They were surprised and pissed not that Pablo was fat, but that Pablo had lied. He had promised them that he had lost significant weight in the offseason, and come February he was about 20-30 pounds heavier instead. It's one thing to be fat, this sport has seen a number of successful ballplayers who were heavyset. it's quite another to have no control at all over your own weight and to lie about it to the guy signing your contracts.

[moonslav59]

They were surprised and pissed not that Pablo was fat, but that Pablo had lied. He had promised them that he had lost significant weight in the offseason, and come February he was about 20-30 pounds heavier instead. It's one thing to be fat, this sport has seen a number of successful ballplayers who were heavyset. it's quite another to have no control at all over your own weight and to lie about it to the guy signing your contracts.

 

Bottom line: we signed a fat player and the fat player got hurt.

[mvp 78]

I do.

 

Let me be clear about "What happened this year." Let me lay this out for you Kimmi, because last Spring if you recall I actually made arguments on your side of this discussion until 2 facts became clear.

 

1: Pablo had clearly lied about working hard on his conditioning that offseason. A man who claimed to be 20 pounds lighter showed up 30 pounds heavier maybe more. This is not about conditioning. This is about the fact that I cannot trust Pablo or his trainer or his handlers to TELL THE FREAKING TRUTH about how hard they're working this offseason. We can make no judgment on his conditioning until next February at the earliest, and history is not in Sandoval's favor here -- at all. Any offseason hype about Pablo's condition or his work ethic gets drowned in his sheer lack of honesty.

 

2: Pablo, who for all the crap he fed us offensively, was a good defender in 2015, immediately got hurt on a routine play only a few weeks after being allowed to even play part time at third base. That could easily happen again with the extra weight he carries. I am not in favor of setting any man up to injure himself. If we allow him to try to earn his job back immediately, he'll start writing checks his body can't cash trying to do exactly that, just like he did this year. It's the nature of the athlete. Just throwing him out there to win his job back without riding very careful herd on his health is an invitation to the guy to go wreck himself, possibly permanently this time.

 

I don't think it would be a kindness to Pablo not to bring him back to the field rather carefully. What that means to me is that no matter how good he looks, I'm not going to immediately make the mistake of asking him to go out there and injure himself trying to earn his job immediately -- instead I'm going to start Sandoval on a rehab assignment to Pawtucket in April that takes as long as it takes. If he shows he can handle first part time 3B, then after a few weeks, full time 3B with no adverse effects, in AAA, then we move on to the next step. If that means that we have an issue at 3B in April, and the first couple weeks of May so be it. Shaw gets at least that long to prove he can get back to the level of performance we came to expect of him in the first half this year.

 

1. Why not feed more criticism towards John Farrell? He stated in December/January that Pablo looked great when he saw him in the offseason. Did Pablo really put on 20lbs in a month or was Farrell fibbing?

 

2. I can't believe he got injured on a routine play! That never happens in MLB!

[Dojji]

1. Why not feed more criticism towards John Farrell? He stated in December/January that Pablo looked great when he saw him in the offseason. Did Pablo really put on 20lbs in a month or was Farrell fibbing?

Farrell would blow smoke up our butts in the offseason regardless of what he really thought about Pablo's condition in the offseason. Part of the job.

 

2. I can't believe he got injured on a routine play! That never happens in MLB!

 

Yeah, that's why I put those qualifiers on it. The fact of the matter is that if it was the play I think it was, Sandoval got injured trying to lever himself quickly back up into a throwing stance after a dive. His extra weight contributed directly to that being an injury play rather than a play any competent 3B could make in his sleep.

[bosoxmal]

I think there is a 60-40 chance that Pablo will bounce back.

 

I think there is a 60-40 chance that JBJ will not.

[mvp 78]

Does anyone care that Mike Hazen left? Is anyone worried about Frank Wren becoming GM? I know Dombrowski makes the final call, but the GM position is still important here.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/10/latest-on-red-soxs-diamondbacks-front-offices.html

[a700hitter]

Does anyone care that Mike Hazen left? Is anyone worried about Frank Wren becoming GM? I know Dombrowski makes the final call, but the GM position is still important here.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/10/latest-on-red-soxs-diamondbacks-front-offices.html

It was a big non story.

[moonslav59]

1. Why not feed more criticism towards John Farrell? He stated in December/January that Pablo looked great when he saw him in the offseason. Did Pablo really put on 20lbs in a month or was Farrell fibbing?

 

Right, it wasn't Pablo fibbing.

 

2. I can't believe he got injured on a routine play! That never happens in MLB!

 

Like, how many players get hurt running to 1B or stepping on 1B?

[mvp 78]

It was a big non story.

 

Should it be a bigger story though?

[moonslav59]

Should it be a bigger story though?

 

No. He was just a figurehead.

[Jack Flap]

It's no secret that Dave Dombrowski drives the bus as president of baseball operations for the Boston Red Sox. But Mike Hazen was never just along for the ride.

 

Hazen was the point man on the July trade for veteran infielder Aaron Hill, a deal which wound up paying few dividends but also came at minimal cost. His expertise in multiple areas allowed him to bridge the scouting and analytics branches of the organization. As general manager for the past 13 months, he had a prominent, often loud voice in all personnel moves, large and small, even though Dombrowski had the final say.

 

But Hazen's most profound impact on Dombrowski's Red Sox might come in his departure.

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/51326/mike-hazens-departure-could-have-widespread-fallout-for-red-sox

 

 

Even if the Red Sox GM is just a puppet in the Dombrowski era, I'd rather have a veteran of the Theo/Ben years giving DD advice than someone like Frank Wren...but I doubt the big picture philosophy will change either way.

[S5Dewey]

I'm not surprised that Hazen left. He was a GM with no GM responsibilities. What surprises me now and did at the time is that DD was given the GM job without the title. IMO that just confuses things. And I don't think it matters much who then next pseudo-GM is. DD is still going to be calling the shots.

 

This works well short-term but in the longer view it may cost us some good baseball people who aren't interested in being a GM in name only and therefore move to another club where they can be a real GM.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I definitely think the Red Sox might be missing a big time shutdown SP. When they won three W.S. Titles, look at who they had in their rotation: Schilling, Pedro, Beckett, Lester, Lackey. Price is supposed to be a big game pitcher, but, as we all know, he stinks in the postseason. Porcello had an excellent year but isn’t quite that dominant strikeout pitcher you look for in a big game.

 

Thus, I would like to see the Red Sox add one of the White Sox aces or see to what extent Jacob deGrom is available in a Bradley trade (the Mets need a CF). The Red Sox could replace Bradley by moving Betts to CF and signing our old friend, Josh Reddick.

 

If the Red Sox added an elite starting pitcher, they would have too many pitchers.

 

1. John Doe, acquired in a trade

2. D.Price

3. R.Porcello

4. S.Wright

5. E.Rodriguez

6. D.Pomeranz

 

If the Red Sox pick up Buchholz’s option, they would be pretty loaded with SP depth:

7. Buchholz

8. Johnson (has options)

9. Owens (has options)

 

In this scenario, the Red Sox could trade away a guy like Pomeranz. They could get a lot for him too, maybe a big bat, a 1b/DH type to replace Ortiz.

 

On the other hand, the Red Sox could go into 2017 with the rotation they already have. It might be good enough to get them another division title. It might be good enough to carry them in the postseason if Price and Porcello can come through in big games. Then again, I would hate to get to the postseason next year only to watch history repeat itself.

 

I've been thinking about this issue a little more. Maybe the Red Sox should go into next season with the same starting staff. (1) Acquiring an ace pitcher is so hard to do and requires a massive amount of assets. (2) Rodriguez still has significant upside--maybe he can develop into that big game postseason starting pitcher that the Red Sox lacked this year. (3) Just because Porcello and Price failed in the postseason this year doesn't mean they will continue to fail in subsequent years.

 

I'm not crazy about Pomeranz. Maybe the Red Sox could trade Pomeranz and one or two other pieces for a hard throwing right handed starter, an upgrade over Pomeranz but not someone as good as Jacob deGrom, who is virtually impossible to acquire anyway.

[TylerD]

I've been thinking about this issue a little more. Maybe the Red Sox should go into next season with the same starting staff. (1) Acquiring an ace pitcher is so hard to do and requires a massive amount of assets. (2) Rodriguez still has significant upside--maybe he can develop into that big game postseason starting pitcher that the Red Sox lacked this year. (3) Just because Porcello and Price failed in the postseason this year doesn't mean they will continue to fail in subsequent years.

 

I'm not crazy about Pomeranz. Maybe the Red Sox could trade Pomeranz and one or two other pieces for a hard throwing right handed starter, an upgrade over Pomeranz but not someone as good as Jacob deGrom, who is virtually impossible to acquire anyway.

 

Haven't seen enough if Poms to get a good feel for him. He did have a couple good games. Either way I wouldn't be upset if we kept him or traded him depending who we got for him

[Nick]

I've been thinking about this issue a little more. Maybe the Red Sox should go into next season with the same starting staff. (1) Acquiring an ace pitcher is so hard to do and requires a massive amount of assets. (2) Rodriguez still has significant upside--maybe he can develop into that big game postseason starting pitcher that the Red Sox lacked this year. (3) Just because Porcello and Price failed in the postseason this year doesn't mean they will continue to fail in subsequent years.

 

I'm not crazy about Pomeranz. Maybe the Red Sox could trade Pomeranz and one or two other pieces for a hard throwing right handed starter, an upgrade over Pomeranz but not someone as good as Jacob deGrom, who is virtually impossible to acquire anyway.

 

I'd like to see us stand pat on starting pitching front and see what develops.....Perhaps both Seattle and ChiSox will be willing to make a reasonable trade at the trade deadline next summer. Especially the White Sox as control years begin to shrivel for their two aces.

[moonslav59]

I've been thinking about this issue a little more. Maybe the Red Sox should go into next season with the same starting staff. (1) Acquiring an ace pitcher is so hard to do and requires a massive amount of assets. (2) Rodriguez still has significant upside--maybe he can develop into that big game postseason starting pitcher that the Red Sox lacked this year. (3) Just because Porcello and Price failed in the postseason this year doesn't mean they will continue to fail in subsequent years.

 

I'm not crazy about Pomeranz. Maybe the Red Sox could trade Pomeranz and one or two other pieces for a hard throwing right handed starter, an upgrade over Pomeranz but not someone as good as Jacob deGrom, who is virtually impossible to acquire anyway.

 

I still wish we had Espi to include in a package to get Quintana.

[bosoxmal]

I'm not surprised that Hazen left. He was a GM with no GM responsibilities. What surprises me now and did at the time is that DD was given the GM job without the title. IMO that just confuses things. And I don't think it matters much who then next pseudo-GM is. DD is still going to be calling the shots.

 

This works well short-term but in the longer view it may cost us some good baseball people who aren't interested in being a GM in name only and therefore move to another club where they can be a real GM.

I have not been privy to plaer development meetings, etc., but there has been an emphasis on young , athletic, prospects that can run, hit, play most any position. The problem is they can't pitch. These playoff games are shouting, PITCHING. Maybe it's moved to 80? of he game. One man, GM or not, can't possib;y keep track of and evaluate, the thousands ofyoung propects coming from Key West to the South Pole and every where in between. This Guardians SS camee right out of the blue! He looks like Mookie and hits like Mookie, (Although from the left) Go get this guy!

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not surprised that Hazen left. He was a GM with no GM responsibilities. What surprises me now and did at the time is that DD was given the GM job without the title. IMO that just confuses things. And I don't think it matters much who then next pseudo-GM is. DD is still going to be calling the shots.

 

This works well short-term but in the longer view it may cost us some good baseball people who aren't interested in being a GM in name only and therefore move to another club where they can be a real GM.

 

It's not a unique setup. Jed Hoyer is the Cubs' GM.

[Kimmi]

Does anyone care that Mike Hazen left? Is anyone worried about Frank Wren becoming GM? I know Dombrowski makes the final call, but the GM position is still important here.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/10/latest-on-red-soxs-diamondbacks-front-offices.html

 

I am concerned. Hazen was one of the last Theo/Cherington disciples who were offering some balance to Dombrowski, IMO. Wren's baseball philosophy and ideals are too similar to Dombrowski's. We need someone like Hazen to complement Dombrowski.

[Kimmi]

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/51326/mike-hazens-departure-could-have-widespread-fallout-for-red-sox

 

Even if the Red Sox GM is just a puppet in the Dombrowski era, I'd rather have a veteran of the Theo/Ben years giving DD advice than someone like Frank Wren...but I doubt the big picture philosophy will change either way.

 

^^This!!!

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I am concerned. Hazen was one of the last Theo/Cherington disciples who were offering some balance to Dombrowski, IMO. Wren's baseball philosophy and ideals are too similar to Dombrowski's. We need someone like Hazen to complement Dombrowski.

 

Agreed. I'm worried Dombrowski will trade away too many prospects, and it sounds like the industry has a very high opinion of Hazen.

 

If I had my choice, the Diamondbacks hire Dombrowski and Red Sox promote Hazen. LOL.

[moonslav59]

Agreed. I'm worried Dombrowski will trade away too many prospects, and it sounds like the industry has a very high opinion of Hazen.

 

If I had my choice, the Diamondbacks hire Dombrowski and Red Sox promote Hazen. LOL.

 

I'm not ready to throw DD under the bus, even though I've disagreed with his 3 biggest moves so far, Price, Kimbrel and Pomeranz.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I'm not ready to throw DD under the bus, even though I've disagreed with his 3 biggest moves so far, Price, Kimbrel and Pomeranz.

 

I was against the Kimbrel trade--that one still bothers me. I hated giving Price all that money but I supported it because the Red Sox needed to upgrade their rotation. I supported the Pomeranz deal, but I now have doubts about it.