Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[S5Dewey]

I'm afraid you're right. All of a sudden nobody can do the job ... even with Wright giving the pen a day off!!!!

 

@ Yaz... I'll be glad when you get back on your feet. Your being unable to be up and around has made you positively combative here! Heck, you of all people, even throw out a F-Bomb! LOL

[Spudboy]

The sky is falling?

[Jack Flap]

The sky is falling?

No.

[S5Dewey]

It's just the normal mercurial mood swings of Red Sox fans.

[SoxnCycles]

It's just the normal mercurial mood swings of Red Sox fans.

 

Losing the last two games the way they did is enough to piss off the most optimistic fan.

They score 16 runs in 2 games, you expect at least one W.

[Maxbialystock]

FWIW, I was getting ready to post something here last night after that 3 run dinger Tazawa gave up to Trumbo in I think the 7th inning last night. We had gone ahead 5-4 with a great rally and dinger by Ortiz, but Baltimore had tied it. Ross came out and walked the first guy of 5 pitches, but two of those balls were well within the strike zone and should have been called. If they had been, Trumbo would not have come to bat for the 3 run dinger. As it turns out, however, the bullpen was more than willing to give up another 4 runs.

 

So I'm sticking to my two basic points. 1. Ball and strike calls by human umpires even out over the long haul and do not prevent good pitchers from getting hitters out nor good hitters from getting hits. 2. Having balls and strikes called by cameras/computers would definitely "purify" the strike zone, but would change the nature of the game, I think for the worse because balls and strikes are central and taking umpires out of the equation marginalizes them and makes cameras and computers central to what is a quintessentially human endeavor.

 

I am not anti-technology and rely on my iphone, ipad, laptop, and a plethora of other gizmos in my home, car, etc. When I watch a game, I even prefer to see that strike zone framework on the screen. But I want the umpire to make the call there and on the basepaths and in the infield and outfield. They are part of the game, indeed part of every competitive team sport I can think of.

[mvp 78]

It doesn't change the nature of the game. Changing the nature of the game would be allowing a batter to walk on 3 pitches.

 

Even if the bad calls even out over the long haul, it still makes the games frustrating to watch.

[User Name]

FWIW, I was getting ready to post something here last night after that 3 run dinger Tazawa gave up to Trumbo in I think the 7th inning last night. We had gone ahead 5-4 with a great rally and dinger by Ortiz, but Baltimore had tied it. Ross came out and walked the first guy of 5 pitches, but two of those balls were well within the strike zone and should have been called. If they had been, Trumbo would not have come to bat for the 3 run dinger. As it turns out, however, the bullpen was more than willing to give up another 4 runs.

 

So I'm sticking to my two basic points. 1. Ball and strike calls by human umpires even out over the long haul and do not prevent good pitchers from getting hitters out nor good hitters from getting hits. 2. Having balls and strikes called by cameras/computers would definitely "purify" the strike zone, but would change the nature of the game, I think for the worse because balls and strikes are central and taking umpires out of the equation marginalizes them and makes cameras and computers central to what is a quintessentially human endeavor.

 

I am not anti-technology and rely on my iphone, ipad, laptop, and a plethora of other gizmos in my home, car, etc. When I watch a game, I even prefer to see that strike zone framework on the screen. But I want the umpire to make the call there and on the basepaths and in the infield and outfield. They are part of the game, indeed part of every competitive team sport I can think of.

 

Arguing with applying the rules as they are meant to be applied is just terrible logic. It's something you can't justify with platitudes about the nature of the game. The true nature of the game is enforcing the rules that make up its basis for existence.

[Bellhorn04]

The sky is falling?

 

The sky ain't falling but the pitching does suck pretty bad when you're scoring 7 runs and losing.

[SinceYaz]

@ Yaz... I'll be glad when you get back on your feet. Your being unable to be up and around has made you positively combative here! Heck, you of all people, even throw out a F-Bomb! LOL

 

I know, I know .... a moment of weakness. I'm usually unwilling to post truly initial negative stuff. I fight being negative especially when there is so much more to be positive about. Now you know .... heh.

 

As to the sky falling, if I had taken just a second more to consider the Kelly/Buch game the day before was similar to watching Chrysler develop K-cars back in the day. Exciting, fresh, ... no completely unimaginative and barely more than Yugos of the next decade.

 

In all honesty, now that I've had my nap and am ready for the new day, we are going to have this kind of series with the O's more often than not. They have HR power at every position beside batboy. Sometimes we will control it and sometimes it will hammer us.

[SinceYaz]

The sky ain't falling but the pitching does suck pretty bad when you're scoring 7 runs and losing.

 

Bungo. Uh, bingo.

[Slasher9]

i would like to see clay given another shot in the rotation the next time 5 SP's are needed. (in a couple weeks i believe).....

[SinceYaz]

Losing the last two games the way they did is enough to piss off the most optimistic fan.

They score 16 runs in 2 games, you expect at least one W.

 

That be me, in most cases. All I need is pompoms to complete the picture for a cheerleader. An old, ugly cheerleader, for true but ...

[Kingface]

I'll say it again for the 8,485 time..............not signing Rich Hill when they had a chance for cheep money was absolutely stupid........ 2.25era, 1.12whip and 8-3 record on a not so great team.......

[User Name]

They offered him a contract. He signed with Oakland because they had an open rotation spot.

[Spudboy]

I know, I know .... a moment of weakness. I'm usually unwilling to post truly initial negative stuff. I fight being negative especially when there is so much more to be positive about. Now you know .... heh.

 

As to the sky falling, if I had taken just a second more to consider the Kelly/Buch game the day before was similar to watching Chrysler develop K-cars back in the day. Exciting, fresh, ... no completely unimaginative and barely more than Yugos of the next decade.

 

In all honesty, now that I've had my nap and am ready for the new day, we are going to have this kind of series with the O's more often than not. They have HR power at every position beside batboy. Sometimes we will control it and sometimes it will hammer us.

 

Although the K Cars saved Chrysler.

[S5Dewey]

They offered him a contract. He signed with Oakland because they had an open rotation spot.

 

And you're saying that as bad as the pitching staff was last year, the Sox DIDN'T??

 

As far as I was concerned, at the end of last season every spot in the rotation was "open".

[Hugh2]

And you're saying that as bad as the pitching staff was last year, the Sox DIDN'T??

 

As far as I was concerned, at the end of last season every spot in the rotation was "open".

 

I get your point, but if the solution is to outspend every team every time to get the guy you want this team would easily have a payroll north of 200 million with likely less talent on it. Every other team is trying to compete and they have money too.

 

This is also a hindsight decision. Hill hasn't started this many games since 2009, which was 2 more than he has this year. The last time he started more than that was in 2007. It's 2016, he's 36 with an extensive injury history, no matter how good he pitches the odds of him crashing or fatiguing are getting higher and higher every single game. Lets not pretend that there wasn't a huge amount of risk in signing him.

[Hugh2]

I'll say it again for the 8,485 time..............not signing Rich Hill when they had a chance for cheep money was absolutely stupid........ 2.25era, 1.12whip and 8-3 record on a not so great team.......

 

I'll eat crow, I lost our bet and I'll be the one to remind you. He started more than 10 games. But calling it "stupid" is absurd. As evidence of my last post. I would have been 100% signing him, he would have been a great depth option but the risk was very very very high.

 

High risk/high pay out. It's paying out for Oakland but lets not all pretend that the risk wasn't/isn't there. I still very highly doubt he can start 32 games, and if he does his arm will have been fatigued by October time.

 

He has not pitched that many innings in over a decade, and even a fully healthy, young spring chicken can't double or triple their workload in one year. It would be almost unprecedented for him to pitch 190 innings + and that's before even talking about being available for the playoffs.

[User Name]

And you're saying that as bad as the pitching staff was last year, the Sox DIDN'T??

 

As far as I was concerned, at the end of last season every spot in the rotation was "open".

 

At the time Hill signed in Oakland, the Sox rotation consisted of Price, Buchholz, E-Rod, Porcello and Miley, with Wright and Kelly on the outside looking in. If you're Hill, do you sign with the team seven (although the term is relative) starters deep, or the team in dire need for rotation help?

 

Part of the problem we have as fans is that we tend to see everything in a vacuum. Life doesn't work like that.

[S5Dewey]

Look, I was on the fence about Hill last year too, and I'm the first to admit that signing him now looks a lot better than it did back then. However, Hill became a FA in November and Price wasn't signed until December. I'm not suggesting that Hill would have taken Price's spot at the top of the rotation but it's a bit disingenuous to say that Price was a part of the rotation when the Sox were negotiating with Hill. Hill was there for the taking, and for $6M - essentially chump change in today's market - as the saying goes, you can't have too many pitchers.

[harmony]

At the time Hill signed in Oakland, the Sox rotation consisted of Price, Buchholz, E-Rod, Porcello and Miley, with Wright and Kelly on the outside looking in. If you're Hill, do you sign with the team seven (although the term is relative) starters deep, or the team in dire need for rotation help?

 

Part of the problem we have as fans is that we tend to see everything in a vacuum. Life doesn't work like that.

To be precise, Rich Hill signed with Oakland on November 20, David Price signed with Boston on December 4 and the Red Sox traded Wade Miley on December 7.

 

I don't doubt the Red Sox wanted to hold off until their pursuit of Price was completed. I'm still surprised that three days after the Price signing the Sox traded away their 2015 leader in starts, innings and wins.

[Spudboy]

And you're saying that as bad as the pitching staff was last year, the Sox DIDN'T??

 

As far as I was concerned, at the end of last season every spot in the rotation was "open".

 

No he did not say that. Oakland guaranteed he'd be a starter IIRC. The Sox brass had to know that they had s*** for a rotation. They chose to stay the course for whatever reasons. They added Price and viola, done!

 

I think many of us would have preferred the Sox take a flier on Hill as opposed to relying on Buch and Kelly to be stalwarts.

[User Name]

To be precise, Rich Hill signed with Oakland on November 20, David Price signed with Boston on December 4 and the Red Sox traded Wade Miley on December 7.

 

I don't doubt the Red Sox wanted to hold off until their pursuit of Price was completed. I'm still surprised that three days after the Price signing the Sox traded away their 2015 leader in starts, innings and wins.

 

Even so, you were certain the Sox were going to get one of Price/Greinke, and were already "6-deep" (relative term) with a couple guys like Brian J. right below in the depth chart. If I'm Hill, I sign with Oakland 10/10 times. It's people we're talking about, who are looking out for their own interests. They are not machines auto-convinced to sign with the Red Sox just because they're the Red Sox.

[User Name]

Look, I was on the fence about Hill last year too, and I'm the first to admit that signing him now looks a lot better than it did back then. However, Hill became a FA in November and Price wasn't signed until December. I'm not suggesting that Hill would have taken Price's spot at the top of the rotation but it's a bit disingenuous to say that Price was a part of the rotation when the Sox were negotiating with Hill. Hill was there for the taking, and for $6M - essentially chump change in today's market - as the saying goes, you can't have too many pitchers.

 

Not disingenuous, I made a mistake in recalling Price signing before Hill signed form memory. No need to call me a liar, as the point stands. Sox were in hot pursuit of an ace, were going to get him (and eventually did), and they offered Hill a similar contract than Oakland did. He chose Oakland because it offered a clearer path to playing time. Ultimately, it's the players' choice. Sox could have offered twice what Oakland offered on a 1-year deal, and he probably still chooses Oakland because if he's betting on himself, he has to go to the place that offers a clearer path to playing time so he can parlay that into another contract/more money.

 

If anything, the one true mistake the Sox made was keeping Buch and trading Miley, who at least provided IP. Also, no way to know for sure Hill would be maintaining the same numbers he is now pitching consistently at Fenway/Camden/Rogers.

[Kingface]

Not disingenuous, I made a mistake in recalling Price signing before Hill signed form memory. No need to call me a liar, as the point stands. Sox were in hot pursuit of an ace, were going to get him (and eventually did), and they offered Hill a similar contract than Oakland did. He chose Oakland because it offered a clearer path to playing time. Ultimately, it's the players' choice. Sox could have offered twice what Oakland offered on a 1-year deal, and he probably still chooses Oakland because if he's betting on himself, he has to go to the place that offers a clearer path to playing time so he can parlay that into another contract/more money.

 

If anything, the one true mistake the Sox made was keeping Buch and trading Miley, who at least provided IP. Also, no way to know for sure Hill would be maintaining the same numbers he is now pitching consistently at Fenway/Camden/Rogers.

 

Well.....here's one thing we actually agree on. I was against the Miley trade at the time.....and obviously with things the way they are now I really wish they kept him. Wade was one of our most reliable starters last year.....not our best.....but you knew you were going to get 6-7 innings and he'd keep you in the game. Other than Wright we so far have not gotten that (Price is approaching it now though. I proposed a rotation of Price, Hill, Erod, Porcello, Wade with Wright as the spot starter. So far I look pretty brilliant.......

[Bellhorn04]

Miley is horrible this year. No great loss.

[Jasonbay44]

A lot of people keep saying Miley was a loss but I don't see it, he sucks. He sucked last year and sucks this year at a pitcher friendly park. He's been better then Kelly, but who hasn't been better then him honestly?

[S5Dewey]

Red Sox Stats ‏@redsoxstats

Wade Miley now has a 5.85 ERA and 4.99 FIP this year.

[User Name]

I'd rather 6 IP/4 ER consistently than 2.2 IP/8 ER any day of the week with this offense, but that's just me.